CRG Discussion Forum
Model Specific Discussions => 6-cylinder Camaros => Topic started by: 68SixBangerRS on October 04, 2021, 02:29:34 AM
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I haven't been on here for quite awhile. Some of you may remember my previous 6-cylinder Camaros...a very rusty '68 RS coupe with a 230 six and a 3-on-the-tree (sold to a guy who needed a VIN and title), another very rusty barn find '69 coupe with a 250 six and a 3-on-the-tree (sold to a guy planning to build a phony SS with an LS...yawn!), a restored '69 coupe with a 250 six and an ultra-rare air-cooled Torque Drive trans (sold to a guy who knew it was one of possibly only 2 left in existence), and my latest find, a 'Frost Green '69 coupe with 44k original miles and its matching number drivetrain...250 six with a 3-speed manual and 3.08 open rear. In addition, I just sold possibly the only '70 Camaro left in existence with a 250 six and a 3-speed manual...an incredibly original Citrus Green Los Angeles car... I posted a lot of info and photos of it over on Nasty Z28 (the best 2nd Gen Camaro website in my opinion). I am here to tell anyone that I KNOW 6-cylinder Camaros!!!
I have known about this particular 6-cylinder '69 Camaro for quite awhile...it was purchased new by my nephew Earl's mother-in-law, Charlotte. My nephew (and everyone else in my family...and all my friends) knows that I absolutely love classic cars...Camaros, Novas, Firebirds, Squarebodies, even a Datsun 240Z and an early Toyota MR2. I had seen photos of the car hanging on the wall of Earl's basement man cave and asked if it was for sale and his answer was that Charlotte had promised it to her oldest child...her daughter Teresa. About 2 months ago Earl called to tell me that Charlotte was interested in selling her Camaro to me (apparently she and Teresa's partner Beth had had a falling out and the car was now up for grabs). I actually asked my wife if I could buy yet another classic car and she was not open to that option, so I made the very difficult decision to sell my '70 after driving to the small town in Arkansas where Charlotte lived so I could assess the condition of the car (gorgeous survivor). I put a couple grand down on it and then sold the '70. I rented a U-Haul pickup and double axle trailer on Labor Day weekend and drove 1,550 miles round-trip from Columbus to get it.
Charlotte gave me several photos of the car from the early '70s to the early '80s and told me the story of it. She was 19 years-old in Sept. 1969 and had recently started classes at the Univ. of Nebraska in Lincoln, as well as working as a secretary at a country club in Lincoln. She was driving an uninspiring white '64 Rambler 4-door with a 6-cylinder and a 3-on-the-tree. She was making enough money at her part-time job to make the payments on a new car. Her grandfather said she should buy a Chevy with a 6-cylinder and a 3-speed manual, and her mother said she would co-sign the loan and provide $250 for the down payment (the dealer gave $350 for the Rambler). Charlotte and her mom went a few blocks from their house to Misle Chevrolet, one of 2 large Chevy dealers in Lincoln (at that time a medium-sized city with a population of approximately 100k). Misle was very close to the U of N and usually had a good selection of cars that appealed to young people...Camaros, Novas, and Chevelles. The evening that Charlotte bought this car was Sept. 19, 1969 (a Friday). She had decided to buy a Camaro instead of a Nova because she thought it was sportier and the cost wasn't much more. Misle had 12-15 Camaros that evening and 3 of them had sixes...two automatics and one manual. The dealer wasn't willing to negotiate on the car (even though they had been sitting on it for 4 months), so she agreed to pay full price (the dealer's only concession to her was to throw in a set of magnesium hubcaps in exchange for the dog-dish caps...Charlotte saw the mag hubcaps on a showroom display board and immediately wanted them). She and her mom drove home with the green Camaro after spending about 3 hours at Misle.
Her Camaro was rather plain, but still a very nice car for a teenager. It had the larger 250 six ($25.00), Z21 Style Trim Group ($45.00), tinted glass on all windows ($31.00), AM radio ($58.00), and E78-14 whitewall tires ($24.00)...the aforementioned mag-style hubcaps were a $70.00 freebie. Charlotte recalled that the out-the-door price was exactly $2,900 and a little change. Her payments were through the 1st National Bank of Lincoln...$110.00 per month for 24 months. She loved everything about the car except the manual steering and the awkward column-shifter (she said it was very stiff-shifting and sometimes hard to get into 1st). After owning it for 6 months, she moved from Lincoln to Los Angeles to be near her brother Bob, a Marine stationed at El Toro Marine Corps Air Station (on the far south side of the LA metro area). She loved LA, but moved back home after one year because she missed her former boyfriend Lyle. She and Lyle married in 1971 and had 3 daughters...the Camaro became a grocery-getter. Charlotte completed a degree in accounting at the U of Nebraska and she was hired by the US Treasury Dept to become an auditor. She began several moves to bigger cities...Omaha, then Chicago, then Washington DC and the Camaro would sit for long periods at her brother Bob's farm near Milford, NE. In 1983 Charlotte decided to buy a new Camaro with A/C, an automatic trans, and power accessories. The dealer offered her $750 trade-in for the '69 and she decided to keep it (it had only 43k miles at that time and the salesmen were salivating over it). Thus began 35 years of storage in a machine shed at Bob's farm. Bob passed away in 2018 and the Camaro was moved to Charlotte and Lyle's new home in rural Arkansas. In early 2021 the car was towed to a mechanic's shop in Arkansas to get it drivable again (all it needed was to have the gas tank drained and a new battery...the tires were replaced in 2018).
The car is remarkably original, but Lyle said that it was repainted in 1975 after it was keyed. It also had the lower right quarter panel and left front fender replaced due to minor accidents in parking lots. Lyle located a steering column in a junkyard Nova with a green interior and a floor shifter and bought the parts to convert the Camaro to a floor shift. The work was done very well and looks factory correct...the floor shifter lends the car a very sporty vibe. Unfortunately, the 3-on-the-tree column and transmission rods were not saved (if anyone knows where I can get them, please let me know...I want to convert it back). Lyle also swapped out the original 14x6 plain steel wheels and mag hubcaps for 14x6 Rally wheels from a junkyard Chevelle after one of the mag hubcaps was either stolen or came off while driving. Other than those items, it's all original. The AM radio works, it rides almost like a new car, steers beautifully with its original tie rod ends, ball joints, pitman arm, and has nearly all of its original parts...RC-15 radiator cap still holds pressure, its Delco "208" coil, spark plug wires, battery cables, untouched wiring, fuel pump, clutch and pressure plate, unturned brake drums, master brake cylinder, radiator with tag, one T-3 headlight, seats, door panels, headliner, seatbelts, carpet, dash panel, rear package shelf (which appears to be painted Frost Green), all Soft Ray glass (the windshield is scratch and chip free and still has its original blue-green tint...no fading). Everything on it works...horn, wipers and washers, backup lights, all electricals. The air cleaner has some surface rust, but still has most of its original paint, as well as a nearly perfect "250 Turbo-thrift" sticker and its side sticker ("Keep your GM car all GM"). The original timing sticker is still on the top of the radiator support (and is still highly legible). In the trunk when I bought it was its original jack, the original rear shocks, the original radiator hoses and tower clamps, the original air pump (I installed it just to take photos...the only complete '69 6-cylinder air pump I have seen in the last 30 or so years), and the original spare wheel which is painted Frost Green (dated May 13th, 1969...the car was built 05E at Norwood...the spare is a BFG Silvertown F78-14 bias-ply dated 6-72...a replacement for a flat tire). There are PTB stamps on both sides of the firewall...P and B are green, T is orange.
The car came with its Protect-o-plate, owner's manual (3rd version dated April '69), plastic documents envelope, a couple of '69 sales brochures, a '69 options booklet, '69 Nebraska tax receipt, '70 California registration, '71 Nebraska registration, several early receipts, a 1982 Nebraska state vehicle inspection sticker on the left side of the windshield, a 1971 Omaha city resident sticker on the right side of the windshield, a 1970 Nebraska National Football champions sticker inside the glovebox, a Misle Chevrolet dealer key ring, the original GM keys, a Misle Chevrolet metal dealer trunk emblem, an oil change sticker on the driver's door from 6-81 that shows 39k miles, a Phillips 66 oil change sticker on the upper left inside windshield that is dated 6-83 and shows 43,068 miles, and a couple of interesting matchbooks. The Ohio title says "43,689 actual miles". This is the most original 1st Gen Camaro I have ever owned.
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First group of photos. Charlotte and Lyle are in the first pic. The car doesn't have its original "250" emblems...Charlotte liked it better without them...I put them back on.
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2nd group of pics.
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3rd group of photos. Note that the PBT stamps bear almost no resemblance to the ones guys put on their high dollar restorations (DOH!). It is hard to see, but there are 2 "B" stamps side-by-side near the bottom of the photo. They appear to be 2 slightly different shaped stamps, which doesn't make any sense. The stampings appear to be done with paint, not ink, and it looks like the inspectors used hardly any paint when they stamped the cars and barely touched the firewalls (just my 2 cents). I will post more photos of the stamps (I know you guys like photos). This car had 2 obvious body problems on the assembly line...a poorly fitting left door, and a fairly large blob of lead on the passenger side roof that was painted over by Fisher Body...those are the reasons I think this car spanned 2 shifts.
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First photo is Charlotte's daughter Teresa with the car in 1974 or '75. It had been in a minor accident and the left fender was replaced (note that the new paint doesn't quite match). Shortly after this photo was taken, the car was keyed and the whole car repainted by H&H Chevrolet in Omaha. Charlotte had the pinstripes moved to the tops of the front and rear fenders because she thought they looked better that way. Note that in the 2nd and 3rd photos that the family has been shopping at K-Mart (remember them?). In the last photo is Charlotte's new '83 Camaro...the main reason that her '69 began 35 years of storage in a machine shed in Nebraska.
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Ok...I've opened a can of worms with the PTB remarks and will post a couple of photos for your perusal. This is the second Camaro I have owned with 2 different colored PBT stamps (the first was my rusty '68 RS which is my avatar...and where I got my forum "handle"). I have heard that cars that crossed shifts usually had issues that couldn't be resolved by the close of the first shift, and that's what I think happened with this car.
The top group of photos show the bad lead job on the passenger side roof and the poorly fitting left door. Charlotte said the left door never looked quite right (it doesn't hug the body contour for the bottom 6 inches and leaves a noticeable gap when the door is closed), but it shut fine when it was new with no wind or water sealing issues. The repaint was done by H&H Chevrolet in Omaha and they said that repairing the door was more trouble than it was worth. They also painted over the lead blob on the roof, the same thing that Fisher Body did when the car was built (Charlotte didn't notice the failure to repair the blob until she and Lyle had moved to Chicago several months later...she was not happy about the poor workmanship).
I don't have the world's best digital camera, but I think you can see that the P, B, and T stamps on the passenger and driver sides are different shapes. For example, the "T" under the cowl tag is much skinnier than the "T" above the heater box. This is also the same with the "B" above the heater box compared to the 2 "Bs" on the driver side (in fact, all 3 stamps appear to be different from each other...is it possible that 3 different body inspectors looked at this screwed up Camaro?). Another thing I noticed is that the "P" above the heater box (only half of it was stamped and with more pressure than most of the other stamps) appears to be a slightly brighter green than the "B" on the same side. Another thing I noticed is that all of the stamps are quite different than the stamps being sold by all of the big Camaro suppliers...note that the center holes in the "B" above the heater box are very large...the repop letters have much smaller centers. The stamps appear to be hand made...is this possible?
One other thing I noticed is that the green "P" on the driver's side is right next to what appears to be a portion of either an orange "T" or "P" (which also doesn't make any sense to me). Also, the green paint on the driver's side looks a little darker than most green PBT stamps I've seen...like a medium green instead of a light green (this may be due to my aging eyes, or 52 year-old paint). In fact, there appear to be paint shade differences in all of the green letters on this car...almost like all of the inspectors had slightly different green paint in their paint cans. Note also that most of the letters are like outlines instead of solid letters like you always see on restored cars. Like I said...they don't look anything like what most guys think are "correct" PBT stamps (but on the flip side, why would anyone want stamps that looked like these on a restored show car).
Note the visible filing marks on the lead blob...you can tell that someone was trying to correct the issue (but probably gave up due to the fast moving assembly line). I am wondering if the Fisher Body guys decided that a low-optioned 6-cylinder wasn't worth the labor-intensive efforts necessary to correct its flaws and then sent it through the wall for the Chevy side of the plant to worry about.
Perhaps someone with a higher paygrade than mine can comment on these unusual stampings.
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PBT stamps.
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Fantastic! Great history!
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Thanks MO...much appreciated! I hope to be able to bring the car to the Camaro Supernats next year in Ypsi, Mich. Still not certain why that show was cancelled this summer...a real bummer.
I put my thinking cap on today and realized that the green firewall stamps are all the same shace of green...they appear to be different colors because they were all stamped with different amounts of pressure and paint. Upon closer inspection they all appear to be the same shade of green.
If anyone is restoring a 6-cylinder '69 (if any others still exist...thank God most were converted over to more desirable V8s by smart owners), this car still has all of its correct clips, washers, and grommets and could be used as a reference. Even the trunk bumpers are original...they appear to be different than the "correct" ones. I will be glad to post pictures of anything on the car that anyone wants to see.
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Thought I would post a few pics of the air pump. Its GM part number is 7801149 and it bears a Saginaw logo...it was built on day "119" (Apr. 29th). The diverter valve is stamped in black ink with a large "GB". The bracket that holds the pump was first sprayed with chassis black paint, then oversprayed with Chevy orange along with the rest of the engine. The pump dumps into a hose that feeds a one-way valve which supplies air to a plenum which feeds each individual cylinder via threaded fittings. A smaller hose with a white stripe supplies air to a vacuum fitting on the carb's base plate. In the third photo you can see a small bracket that keeps the green temp sensor wire from sitting on the hot engine.
Note the dust shields on the upper control arms...they are in perfect condition and still very pliable. The original paint in this engine compartment is nearly perfect...it still shines.
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The diverter valve's zinc finish is nearly perfect. The 7801149 pump has a white fan...the same one used on '69 Z28s. Note the plenum (called a "pipe" in the AIM) is tied into each individual cylinder via threaded fittings in the exhaust ports. A previous '69 6-cylinder 3-speed manual I owned had a crusty air pump in the trunk and was missing all of the other parts necessary for a manual trans equipped car. According to Kurt S only the manual trans '69 six bangers had the pump...the automatics had a setup called "CCS".
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Here are the appropriate pages from the AIM for those of you building a replica '69 six banger with a manual tranny (just think...you'll have something rarer than a ZL1!). ::)
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You did it again! Another outstanding car. Congrats! Most would be fortunate to land one survivor in a lifetime. You have had several.
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You did it again! Another outstanding car. Congrats! Most would be fortunate to land one survivor in a lifetime. You have had several.
I agree. I hope you have been able to hold a few including the red one
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Bentley and Bullitt...very nice to be back on here and to be in touch with you fine gentlemen again. I have had pretty good luck over the last 20-25 years finding Camaros that 19 guys out of 20 would've swapped to V8s. I prefer rarity to running with the herd...I like showing up at shows with really rare cars and seeing the effect they have upon the spectators.
Unfortunately, I sold the ultra-rare red '69 with a 250 six and a Torque Drive trans exactly one year ago. My wife has some very serious health issues that started 2 years ago and I was seeking to simplify my life by getting rid of most of my cars. I gave my son Alex the choice of keeping "Cherry", or "Froggy" (our '70 6-cylinder). He chose Froggy, which I will truthfully say is a much better driving car than a '69 Camaro with the identical drivetrain. I will write about driving the '69 (now known as "Charlotte" after the original owner) very soon. The Torque Drive '69 was quite frankly a pain-in-the-a** to drive...constantly shifting to high and low with the "manual automatic" and not getting much fun out of it...sluggish but acceptable acceleration (it could keep up with modern traffic if you kept it in 1st gear until reaching about 25-30 mph before shifting into 2nd). It had also been completely restored (over-restored in my opinion) and the dash was gloss red, the engine compartment was gloss black, and it was loaded with repop garbage parts like gawd-awful door panels and a dash pad that was far from the correct shade of red. My '70 was incredibly original and more fun to drive, so "Cherry" went to a new owner.
This car is absolutely unbelievably original...loaded with patina and character. It moves out almost like a small V8...plenty of acceleration in 1st and 2nd gears (even 3rd is very torquey). It feels like a much smaller car than the '70 (the '70's long hood is great to view while driving), and much airier with its more upright glass, taller roof, and higher seating position. It also feels much lighter and more nimble than the '70, but the '70 has more of a musclecar feeling than the '69. The '69 feels more like a 3rd Gen Nova than a '70 Camaro, even though both are based around a 3rd Gen Nova floor pan and wheelbase.
This car is the one I have been looking for all these years (and never thought I would find). The fact that it has been in my extended family for so many years makes it even more interesting and desirable to me. It has everything...the most-collectible 1st Gen year, extremely rare drivetrain, provenance/paperwork, low miles, and basically untouched. Time has been very kind to it, and I think it will gain value just as quickly as its V8 brothers (maybe even faster due to its rarity).
If you guys want to see anything on the car, just let me know. The main value in this car for CRG is that it probably provides a thorough look at a rare drivetrain, the same as the red Torque Drive car did. There are not many original 6-cylinder early Camaros left, and I continue to see them destroyed with V8 swaps. I believe there are enough V8 1st Gen Camaros already and that the few surviving sixes should be celebrated for their simplicity and rarity...and saved.
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The manual steering box is a GM 5679142, the same one that came on '68 and '69 Z28s. I can see if there's a part number on the Pittman arm and also measure it. I couldn't find a list of manual steering boxes in the '69 AIM, so I don't know if this box on this car is unusual or not. Note the backshift mechanism to the right of the steering box. The actuating rod was removed many years ago and was in the trunk when I bought the car.
My '70 Camaro 6-cylinder had manual steering and used the same steering box as the '70 Z28, which was correct according to the '70 AIM.
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The jack is unusual for one obvious reason...its jacking mechanism/load hook and base are different colors (I don't know if this was uncommon or not). The date on the jack is "9E", the base is stamped "U69", and the original rubber sleeves are still holding the tire iron in place. The iron has a spot of orange paint on the lug end...an inspection mark for a complete and correct jack?
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The original timing sticker on the radiator support. Note that it shows it is for a car equipped with a 140 or 155 HP engine...a 230 or a 250 six. It is still very legible and has great patina.
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I'm doing a couple of current projects on the car...replacing the heater control due to a broken fan slider, rebuilding the warped dash pad with the help of a buddy who has done them before, fixing the sticky heater box flap, and reinstalling FC coded wheels.
I have been into 6-cylinder Camaros and Novas for approximately 40 years and have amassed a pretty good collection of parts for them. One of the items I have had for a very long time is an FC code wheel that was the spare from a '68 junkyard Nova. The tire was ruined from being in an open trunk for unknown years and was discarded. The wheel was still in great shape with original paint and valve stem. It was from a car with full hubcaps and was painted black with a 2" long valve stem (a photo is attached). Charlotte's husband Lyle put Rally wheels on the Camaro around 1972 and the original Frost Green wheels disappeared (but the mag hubcaps were fortunately saved). I have a complete set of FC wheels down in the basement parts room and they are going back on the car. Most 1st Gen Camaro guys want Rally wheels, so virtually every Camaro at a show has them. I like the look of hubcaps on 1st Gens because they look more correct and lend an air of nostalgia. They are seldom seen on 1st Gens and really stand out at shows.
The only original wheel from this car currently has is its spare, which has a 1972 dated BFG Silvertown F78-14 bias-ply whitewall mounted to it. The wheel is dated 5-13-69 and has a small "FC" next to the valve stem ('68s used a larger FC...the easy way to spot which year wheel you have). All 4 wheels going on the car are '68 wheels...who cares...it's a six-banger!
One of the great things about sixes is that their parts are CHEAP because almost no one wants them. Looking for a set of NOS 6-cylinder Delco points?...$10. How about an NOS upper radiator hose?...$15. An NOS distributor cap?...$20. A rebuildable Rochester Monojet carb?...$25. An NOS muffler?...$60. Plus, they get GREAT gas mileage!
I will post some photos of the dash project in a few days. Hope you are liking these posts.
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I put the dash pad and heater control replacement on temporary hold while trying to figure out a minor drivability issue where the engine is only firing on 5 cylinders up to approx. 2,000 rpm and then smoothes out. A check of the plug wires with a timing light shows that the #4 plug is firing maybe 20-30% of the time at idle. I replaced the plugs with NOS AC R46N gapped to .035, new AC points gapped at .017, and new cap and rotor. I believe the wires are original, although they don't have any lettering on them to indicate they are AC (or anything else), and no date codes. The mileage on the car is just over 44k and Charlotte's husband Lyle (original owners) said he doesn't think they were ever replaced. Anyway, if it is a timing issue, it's now possibly in the distributor. I pulled the valve cover and checked the lash. The number 4 exhaust was loose and didn't want to adjust, so I decided to replace the lifter. All valves adjusted properly, but the engine still has the miss. I have a spare low-mile cylinder head from a '70 250 and will probably bolt it on and see if that cures the problem (I am now wondering if this is a sticky valve due to the car sitting undriven for 39 years). The original GM metal head gasket is still on the car and I hate to replace it, but that's where I'm headed as I don't have a spare 6-cyl distributor.
A compression check shows all cylinders between 134-148 psi...good indications. I wondered if a sticking valve would cause a drop in compression on one cylinder, but that doesn't appear to be the case.
While under the hood I snapped a pic of the casting date and the engine's VIN pad. The car was built 05E and the P-O-P shows the engine stamping should be "F0506BE"...it is. The BE code indicates this is the legendary "mountain motor" 250 six...a massive 20 inches larger than the stock 230 (note: insert sarcasm here). Note that there is no VIN stamped...I have owned several '68-'70 six cylinders and none of them had VIN numbers, although there is plenty of room for one.
I pulled the air pump and its pipe off and put them back in storage. The pipe is attached to threaded ports on the exhaust side of the head. Note that the original Delco 208 coil is still on the car, as well as the original AC fuel pump. The rubber input hose and clamp are still on the supply side of the fuel pump.
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The valve cover and top of the engine were clean as a whistle...a testament to Charlotte's obsessive oil change routine (she always insisted on Phillips 66 Trop Artic 10W-30...something she learned from her grandfather). She usually had the oil changed between 2,500-4k miles.
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I would recommend that you should replace the spark plug wires as it may be the reason you are having a problem with the engine running at low rpm. You have a nice 1969 Camaro!
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Try swapping the #4 wire with another and see if the misfire changes cylinders with the wire swap. Or install a new wire on #4 (or replace all of them). If you know anyone or a shop with a distributor machine, you could pull yours and have it checked.
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GMAD, thanks for the compliment...much appreciated! "Charlotte" will remain completely original and unrestored, and I'll convert it back to a 3-on-the-tree as soon as I can find a decent donor car. I know where there is a '69 Nova 4-door with a light green interior and a 230 six with a column shift, but I would have to buy the whole car to get the column...a growing possibility for me. I know of only one other '69 Camaro with a six and 3-speed manual...a red base convertible with a red interior and a white top that was for sale about 3 or 4 years ago for $17k in Virginia (current whereabouts unknown...I hope this ultra-rare car was restored to its original glory). It was sold right before I found out about it. There are a few other '69s which may or may not still have their 6 cylinders and automatic trannies...a really nice gold coupe with a TH-350 and AC (what a fantastic oddball!), a Frost Green base coupe with a 250 and a PG with a dark green interior and nose stripe in IN that was for sale on Ebay about 2 years ago, a white base coupe with a 230 and PG with a red interior and nose stripe from WA that was sold on Ebay 4 or 5 years ago, and a couple of really beat up and rusty coupes with remnants of their six banger drivetrains that I've spotted on Craigslist (and were still relatively expensive) and weren't worth pursuing. Every once in awhile I spot them at Hershey or Carlisle in sad, abused shape and waiting for their LS drivetrain swaps...sadness.
So Charlotte really punches the buttons of a lot of guys at car shows because she is so freaking rare. I was told for years and years that "rare doesn't necessarily mean desirable", but now it definitely does.
By the way, I am very familiar with the Van Nuys plant as I drove to LA 5 years ago to buy a 4-door Nova police car that had sat under the home of a Hollywood film editor for about 30 years. It had heavy documentation (build sheet, paperwork from the LA County auction where it was sold in 1981, and its speedometer calibration paper and envelope from the GM Tech Center on Van Dyke Ave in Warren, MI) and was the 2nd of only 17 cop cars produced by GM at the end of the 1974 model year. I posted a lot of info on it on Steve's Nova Site. I sold it to clear out some of the madness of keeping 6 cars stored at various storage units. It's sad to see that a Home Depot and several other big box retailers sit on the Van Nuys plant site and all remnants of the plant are completely gone.
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MO...thanks for the troubleshooting tip. I finally located an NOS set of spare 6-cyl. spark plug wires (dated 1Q77) and swapped the #4 wire...no change in the problem. I then swapped all 6 wires with no change. It almost feels like it has a bent valve, but the engine was never abused and I'm now thinking it may have a problem in the dist. I will pull it and send it off for a rebuild this week. Fall is here and I have about a 2 month window to get it back and see how that works. The car is still drivable but annoying with the missing cylinder, and the last thing I want to do is harm the drivetrain further.
While I'm waiting on the dist to get back to me, I've decided to pull the clutch and pressure plate and see how they look. They have low miles (44,300), but there is some chattering while engaging 1st gear from a stop...evidence of a glazed clutch disk. I have a feeling the throwout bearing could also use some attention.
I'll keep you posted on what I find.
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I'm posting the interesting bits from the Aug. '98 issue of Special Interest Autos...one of my favorite defunct car magazines. That issue featured an original survivor '67 Camaro base coupe with a 250 and a 3-speed manual with a floor shift. The article contained excerpts from the Mar. '67 issue of Car Life magazine that tested pony cars with six cylinder engines against each other. It also compared a base Camaro six with an SS350 4-speed Camaro.
My impression of driving a base coupe with a six and 3-speed is that most guys would much rather have a V8 (hey, that could be a catchy slogan..."I could'a had a V8"). You have to lean a little hard on this drivetrain when merging into highway traffic...stay in 1st gear up to 25-30 mph before the shift to 2nd, then stay in 2nd up to 45-50 mph. For driving around town the six provides decent acceleration. Once the car is in 3rd above 40-45 mph, it has plenty of available torque to accelerate at a nearly-V8 pace. There is a great state scenic highway that follows the beautiful Olentangy River just a few minutes east of my house, SR 315, and Charlotte has no problem negotiating 30 mph curves at 45-50. The car feels very light and small, much like a 3rd Gen Nova. The monoleafs keep the rear well planted, and the 6 inch wide wheels are just fine with no dramatics. And although drum brakes have a bad reputation, they stop the car just fine, even without a power booster.
Note from the article that the '67 with the 250 weighed only 2,780 lbs dry (the '69 is a little more weight), and was capable of 0-60 in 11.4 seconds (the SS350 did the same in 7.8 sec). The main thing missing from the six is the stout acceleration a V8 provides. Note also that '69 six cylinder production was 26.7%...it's amazing that so few have survived.
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I remember when we built a few 1979 Camaros for the California Highway Patrol and when they were coming down the assembly line, I talked with one of the UAW committee representatives about the cars. The Carmaros were a big hit with the officers and I remember when one passed me on the San Diego freeway at a high rate of speed and he wasn't chasing anyone!
I've never been back to Van Nuys to see where the plant once stood as I had so many great memories of working there and couldn't bring myself to see the area today.
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GMAD, I remember those '79 CHP Camaros well. I was stationed at 32nd Street Naval Station in San Diego from '79-83 and the Camaros were stationed in 2 areas around SD...the mountains of east SD County along I-8, and the north county area from Carlsbad through Camp Pendleton up to the San Onofre nuke plant. They were the best looking CHP cars of all time (in my opinion), but the '70-72 Dodge Polaras were far superior police cars with their 440s.
Were you on the Fisher Body side of Van Nuys, or the Chevrolet side before the GMAD merge?
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I started at the Van Nuys Assembly Plant when it was GMAD and since being on CRG, I've wondered if the trim tags were attached to the firewall when shipped from Fisher Body as I don't recall ever seeing the tags being fastened on the assembly line.
I remember seeing a few CHP B4C Camaros on the 5 Freeway as I would frequently visit my sister and family in the San Diego area as my brother-in-law was a career US Navy officer. I once saw a blue 1969 Camaro going down the freeway in the slow lane with a CA license plate "REALZ28," anf figured it must have had 4.56 gears as he was only going 55 mph!
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GMAD, the CHP Camaros were on the stretches of freeway where they could chase down speeders on challenging stretches. The 17 miles of I-5 through Camp Pendleton were a great place to see what a car could do. I don't believe very many Camaros were built for the CHP and I don't know of any survivors...a shame.
I'm guessing the cowl tags should have been installed by Fisher Body, but that is apparently lost to time. I am frequently in Detroit and my favorite building there is the Fisher Building, an Art Deco masterpiece built in the late '20s after the Fisher brothers sold their company to William C. Durant, the founder of GM. It is absolutely overflowing with expensive overwrought bronze bas relief panels, intricate tile work, stained glass, and rare types of marble and other stones. It sits right across the street from the General Motors Building on West Grand Blvd. Both buildings were designed by Detroit's greatest architect, Albert Kahn who designed many factories for the auto industry. When the GM Building was completed in the late teens, it was the largest office building in the world.
The Fisher Body 21 plant, a magnificent industrial ruin sits a few blocks from the GM Building on Piquette Avenue. I have been through the city block-long plant building several times...6 stories of busted glass, twisted steel girders, trash, and graffiti...a good place to bring a baseball bat along with your 35mm camera.
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The Fisher Body 21 plant is one of the easiest factories to do urban exploration in as it hasn't been boarded up to the point that it's unbreachable. On each floor are remnants of the tracks that moved the vehicles...either overhead or in the floor. I was last there this past May when I took my son to a cars and coffee at a buddy's house on the north side of the Detroit metro area (we drove the '70 Camaro with a 6-cylinder engine...a great highway car). This was the cleanest I have ever seen the factory...I could tell that much debris had been removed since the last time I explored the building...15 or so years ago.
The neighborhood surrounding the plant is known as Milwaukee Junction, and it is full of historic (and mostly closed) auto plants. It is not a good area to be in during the evening or night, but isn't too sketchy during the day. During my last visit there I encountered a group of half a dozen middle-aged urban explorers from Chicago.
https://historicdetroit.org/buildings/fisher-building
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_Junction
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I'm in the process of doing several things to the '69 at once...trying to figure out the rough idle issue (just bought a supposedly good used distributor on Ebay to swap and further narrow the problem), continuing to work on the dash pad and heater box (the box's movable flap is stiff from sitting for 39 years...it's slowly getting loose again with a dab of lubricant and working it), and the chattering clutch issue. My buddy Scott and I dropped the tranny last night and put eyes on the clutch and pressure plate. The clutch disk and PP are original GM parts and had probably never been out of the car. The disk was approximately halfway worn down...still plenty of miles left in it, and the PP was very shiny, just like a mirror. There is probably less than .010" of wear on the PP, but I'm dropping it off at NAPA today to get resurfaced. The mirror smoothness of the PP explains why the clutch chattered...it was hard for the disk to grab onto. I'm replacing the clutch, PP, and throwout bearing to get the car back to peak drivability. Still looking for a 3-on-the-tree column (in case anyone on here knows of one).
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Sorry to hear it wasn't as easy as just a plug wire. Hopefully the distributor rebuild will do it so you don't have to pull the head.
Best of luck and let us know how it goes!
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Thanks for posting the photos of the Fisher Body Plant. When I worked at GM, I didn't travel much, which was okay with me. Sad to see all those abandoned facilities. When GM demolished the Van Nuys Plant, the cost to remove all the toxic material was substantial and the solvent used to clean the bodies before painting was taken to a place in Texas.
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Wow, saw your newest progress after I posted! Sounds like you have a lot going on at once. Hope even more that you don't have to pull the head now!
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Wish I had seen the plants when they were operational. I appreciate hearing the stories and seeing the pics from both of you.
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MO and GMAD...I'm glad to post interesting bits about GM...I love GM's history and absorb and explore all I can. I am a member of the Vintage Chevrolet Club of America and have spoken to many retired GM guys who are members of the VCCA about their memories of the plants where they worked.
During a recent little car show I met a guy who has a maroon '69 Z28 (I can identify real ones from their cowl tags) with 12k original miles (a flat hood car with no spoiler...refreshing to see one like that). His car was completely restored due to sitting in a high moisture garage...lots of surface rust on everything. He said my '69 was the most original unrestored 1st Gen Camaro he has ever seen. He commented on the PTB inspection stamps, untouched brake lines and master cylinder, and the splash guards. One of the splash guards is right below the master brake cylinder (very difficult to photograph...really no good way to capture it) and he had never seen that particular guard on an original car. Another thing that obviously needs correcting is the heater hoses...red and too short...those will be replaced this week. I'm posting pictures on here and would be glad to take measurements of all of the splash guards in case anyone is interested. I'll post some better pictures once the heater hoses are replaced.
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Note...flywheel being resurfaced, not the pressure plate...duh!
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Your 1969 Camaro is in excellent condition! My 1979 Trans Am has original paint, with the exception of one rear quarter panel that was keyed and repainted by the second owner back in the early 1980s. The chassis is also rust-free, which is good as I had to remove the fenders in order to replace the power brake booster and master cylinder. I thought I would have to replace the clutch, but it turned out that the rear transmission mount had separated and caused the drive chain to sometimes shudder when I would start out in first gear.
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GMAD, it sounds like you have a rare W72 '79 TA, and it sounds like it is a survivor...awesome.
I'm at a standstill right now on the clutch and PP replacement...the NAPA kit came with a 10" clutch disk (which is what their parts database says is correct), but when I got it out of the box and compared it to the original disk I realized it was too big. The original disk is 9" and NAPA no longer carries that clutch. I found one online on a website called Partsgeek.com and ordered it...should be here by Wed. I could've upgraded to a 10" clutch, but decided to keep everything 100% original. My '70 Camaro had a 250 six and a 3-speed manual and used a 10" clutch...it shifted like a dream. NAPA did a beautiful resurfacing job on the flywheel...they removed only .010".
I have been cleaning everything I can on the engine, including the starter. Note that it has the GM # 1107735 and is dated "9 E 10"...original to the car. Like virtually everything else on this car, it is nearly immaculate.
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Like nearly everything else in this car the radiator is original. I don't know if a radiator sitting for 39 years is good or bad, but I will assume that it isn't great for it. The driver's side radiator tank was weeping a small amount and I pulled it to have Columbus' only remaining radiator shop, Arrow, look it over and repair it if necessary. They strongly suggested I have them recore it, so I bit and told them to do it. I took the ident tag and coolant overflow hose off so they wouldn't get lost or damaged, then reattached them once it was done. I also asked them not to paint the radiator because I didn't want incorrect gloss black sprayed on everything.
Note the "CB" and "IH" stamped into the end tanks. The tag is a "UC" code, which the radiator chart on this site says is correct. Between the "C" and the "B" is a small "C" which denotes the month of March as its date of stamping. The driver's side of the radiator has two small bolts with brass nuts and rubber grommets. I'll bet these pieces of hardware are difficult to find.
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The little grommet pieces are called Well Nuts. Lots of places have them....Joe
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Hillman 5/16-in x 18 Brass Well Nut
Item #137185Model #880512
1.50 avail at Lowes
verify size required<?>
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Wow...this is good news. You mean I can walk into Home Depot and actually find replacements for all of the original nuts and bolts on this car? Maybe it would be best for me to replace the worn out originals with repop stuff so it can be like almost every other 1st Gen Camaro.
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I used whatever I could during my restoration but sometimes you can't reuse items. Those well nuts is one of them....Joe
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I finished the clutch and PP job yesterday and took a few pics. The tranny is stamped with a partial VIN, but the engine is not (I have owned probably 10 six cylinder Chevys over the years and only a couple of them had VIN stamps...I don't know why the sixes were neglected in this regard, but I suspect it may have been because VIN pad was difficult to reach under the distributor). The bellhousing is the same "403" part that the V8s used...it cleaned up nicely with gas and a rag. The original clutch was 9" and difficult to find...NAPA only carries 10" clutches for it and their PP wouldn't line up with the holes in the original flywheel. I found the correct kit at Kanter Auto Products and they were kind enough to measure the distance between the PP holes to verify it would work...the new clutch is 10" but the PP is the same as the 9" original. NAPA turned the flywheel for $45 in one day and it turned out beautifully. The car shifts perfectly now with no clutch slippage or chattering, but the pedal is quite a bit stiffer due to the new PP.
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The block on my 1979 Trans Am was not stamped with a VIN number, although the transmission has the correct VIN. Nice job replacing the clutch as I still remember how much fun it was to slip the transmission into place, even though I used an alignment tool.
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GMAD, that's unusual to have a Firebird built that late without an engine VIN stamp.
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I was on Ebay last week looking for an E78-14 bias-ply tire in good shape and found an ad with 4 (!) E78-14 bias-ply whitewall tires mounted on a set of "FC" coded wheels (the correct standard wheels for a '68 or '69 Camaro). The seller was asking $450...I sent an offer of $350 and it was accepted. Ed travels a lot and was in central Ohio last night and brought the tires with him (saving me a lot of dough on shipping...thanks, Ed!).
I laid them out in the driveway today to photograph them and really look them over. The tires are Goodyear Power Streak IIs...I could not find any info on them on the 'Net. They are date coded "507R"...50th week of '67 (I'm guessing the "R" is possibly the Goodyear plant code...no luck confirming that on the 'Net). They have virtually no age cracking. All 4 appeared to have their original 2" valve stems and "Dill" valve caps, and all are stamped "KH" for Kelsey Hays Corp. The "FC" stamps next to the valve stem holes are larger than the stamps used on '69 wheels. The wheel fronts have their original semi-gloss paint...all 4 still look great. The factory wheel weights are still on. One tire wouldn't hold air, so I took it to the Goodyear tire store in nearby Marysville, OH, and they took great care with replacing the split valve stem (the Goodyear nearest me will not work on old tires, even if I tell the manager that it's for a spare tire for a classic car). The guy running the tire machine commented that the rubber was still pliable.
I'm looking forward to putting this matched set of E78-14 bias-ply tires and original wheels on my '69 for big shows.
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A couple more pics.
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Rusty Small (Smallhurst) can tell you all about those tires. His number is 816-654-3400. He's the go to guy for reproduction tires....Joe
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👍for Rusty Small.
Great write up. Enjoy stories like this.
Car's actually staying in the family, knowing hands. Your excitement shows in the thread!
I think a car like this is special. Somebody wanted something practical and reliable,,but stylish. Budget friendly. Obviously 40k of good memories,she kept and cared for it.
Thanks for sharing.
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X77 and Janobyte...thanks for the heads-up on Rusty...much appreciated! I actually bought a set of BFG Radial TAs for a low-mile survivor '77 F-bird Esprit I owned 3 years ago. He brought the tires to a show in Ohio and saved me the cost of shipping them...a great guy.
Janobyte, thanks for the kind words on the car. It is dead-original and that's the way it will stay as long as I have it. Most of the 1st Gen Camaros I see have been heavily messed with, or have repop cowl tags and no way of telling what they actually started out as. The sixes are extremely rare and have a charm that make people smile. They are great little drivers, especially with stick-shifts.
I have thought about getting this one repainted since it no longer has its original paint (repainted sometime in the early-mid '70s) and the current paint is dull, but then it would lose that awesome patina. There are about 3 or 4 spots on the roof where the paint has come off and exposed red primer, but they don't really matter to me. A new correct paint job would cost at least $10k (probably more to correct its few body issues), and I don't want to risk having the car sit in a shop for months (and months...and months...ad nauseum) and risk something happening to it (can you imagine what that original six banger drivetrain might be worth to someone doing a high dollar restoration to an original '69 six...the sky's the limit!). This car also has its original cracked and worn weather stripping and I would hate to have to replace any of that. Aside from the switchover to a floor shifter and Rally wheels, the car is completely original. I am switching it back to boring steel wheels and hope to get the 3-on-the-tree shifter back in it. I had planned to put a great stereo and speakers in it like I did with my '70 six banger Camaro, but I can't bear the thought of cutting a single wire in the car...it will keep its original AM radio. It was at a recent show put on by a local Corvette club and those guys really seemed to appreciate it just the way it is.
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Thought you might be interested in a couple of details in Charlotte's trunk. Note that the trunk lid bumpers don't look very much like the "NOS" versions being sold on Ebay. They are much shorter and have rounded (not square) corners. Also note the trunk gasket's orange painted mark (I'm not sure what this mark was used for...if anyone knows, please advise).
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Maybe a starting locator for installation?
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While having a leaky valve stem replaced on one of the "new" 53 yr-old tires, I noticed the original was made by Dill and thought I would post a couple of pics of it. I know there are some guys on here who are waayyy too wrapped up in originality (like me!) and might appreciate a stupid little detail like this. The last photo is one of the original wheel weights...note the weight in ounces and grams.
I found these Dill TR-418 valve stems are still available on Ebay in quantities of 25 for around $15-20. The wheels I bought were from a '68 base Camaro which came with hubcaps (note the black-painted wheels), so a shorter length may be correct for cars with dog-dish caps.
Should I be posting original details in the "Originality" section?
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MO...that is a distinct possibility...makes perfect sense to me. I know you are a detail-oriented guy...have you seen this painted mark before on trunk seals? I have noticed that the repop trunk seals look remarkably dissimilar to the originals (like a lot of other repop stuff).
PS...I found a posting from 2008 on here from "Firstgenaddict" regarding the orange mark. You are correct that it was used to orient the seal during installation on the assembly line.
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Here is a pic of the '68 Dill valve stem and one I had to replace on an original '69 Camaro E78-14 spare a few years ago. I have found that leaks on old tires are usually due to split valve stems. The tire machine operator did not use a lot of lubricant on the tire during the process and ripped the bead to the point that the tire was ruined (it still looked ok for shows but held no air). The store manager told me that customers were not allowed into the shop area, and the young guy working the machine didn't know any better (plus, he wasn't used to dealing with a 50 yr-old dried out tire...I didn't blame him). I now go to a shop where everyone knows me, and bringing donuts helps with shop access ;).
Both valve stems appear to be identical. Was Dill the only supplier of valve stems for 1st Gen Camaros? Dill is still in business and its current old school valve stems still appear to be the same as its 1960's versions.
https://www.dillvalves.com/product_category/tire-valves-2/
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I know that Dill valve stems were used on early Mustangs and you can buy them from Deadnuts:
https://www.deadnutson.com/dill-valve-stems-caps-5/
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MO...that is a distinct possibility...makes perfect sense to me. I know you are a detail-oriented guy...have you seen this painted mark before on trunk seals? I have noticed that the repop trunk seals look remarkably dissimilar to the originals (like a lot of other repop stuff).
PS...I found a posting from 2008 on here from "Firstgenaddict" regarding the orange mark. You are correct that it was used to orient the seal during installation on the assembly line.
Thanks, I resemble that. Yes, I have seen that before, and assumed that's what it was for, but never really went any further to verify. Thanks for the confirmation. Nice score on the tires!
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MO...thanks, and nice to hear from you. I couldn't pass up the tires and feel they will add much interest to the car at shows. Before I bought the set, I asked the seller, Ed, what the story was on them. He said that his uncle bought a new '68 red Camaro and switched the tires and wheels for mags shortly after buying the car. Since the tires were virtually new, he kept them for backups and stored them in the rafters above his garage in suburban St. Louis. He sold the car sometime in the '80s and the tires remained forgotten until now. After Ed's uncle passed away, he went through the garage to ready the property for sale and discovered the tires...to my great luck.
Obviously they are extremely old and unsafe (at any speed, perhaps?), and will never go any faster than 5 mph when being driven off a trailer and to a spot at a show.
I greatly value rarity and originality in 1st Gen Camaros and want other such-afflicted aficionados to see a 6-cylinder Camaro as something more than an undesirably-powered car awaiting a glorious LS, SBC or BBC swap. From my 30 years of lusting after them, I have found that, metaphorically speaking, six-banger Camaros are like the red-headed step-children in the Camaro world...under-loved and often mocked. Perhaps this is the car that will finally awaken the Camaro community to how special said cars actually are, and "maybe" give pause to someone sitting on the fence about butchering a rare and interesting piece of Camaro history. There are only a handful of these left.
I bid you all a good evening...
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Great car , glad to see it preserved . Can you check date on voltage regulator and post ? I had heard or read somewhere that red mark on trunk seal means it passed leak test .
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Hey Roadster...the voltage regulator is a 1119515 dated "9B". The car was built "05E", so it looks like the VR sat in a parts bin for 3 months before being installed at Norwood. I will be glad to take some photos of it and post them on here. Good luck with your '69 project!
I snapped quite a few photos of several different parts of the car today and will post them during the next couple of weeks or so. I'm posting a few pics of the wiper motor and its wiring harness and hoses. The manufacturer's sticker is still on it and shows that it is a GM number 5045572 motor, that it was assembled on the 119th day of 1969 (Friday, April 30th) on line number 6 during the 2nd shift (denoted by "B") at the Delco plant in Rochester, NY. The sticker appears to be a silvery gray in color. Some of the hoses appear to have white or yellow painted lines...hard to tell for sure due to age fading. The hoses are ribbed and still in pretty good shape.
I don't believe any of these wires or hoses have ever been touched or moved...completely original. The flat black paint line at the top of the cowl closely follows the cowl line. The body was apparently painted Frost Green before the cowl and engine compartment were painted black. The firewall is flat black, while the inner fenders and radiator support appear to have been painted semi-gloss black (the inner fenders are still showing a lot of their original sheen). The Frost Green paint on the bottom of the cowl vent panel has not been exposed to any sun and it is still bright and shiny and shows how much the rest of the paint has faded. If I ever get the car repainted, I will have the paint color matched to this specific spot of paint.
Note the upside-down orange "T" below the cowl tag...the final trim inspector's mark from Norwood. I mentioned the "PTB" inspection marks earlier in this thread.
I am still trying to determine if the cowl tag is a real 6-cylinder tag or has been one of the increasingly-seen "repop" tags. Now that many members of the 1st Gen Camaro community have discovered that '69 six-bangers are rarer than ZL1s, they are unscrupulously being cloned from the now less-desirable V8s...shameful! I am really hoping that my car is a "real" six-banger and not just another damned clone!
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A few more pics of the cowl vent area.
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Here are some shots of "Charlotte's" steering box and pitman arm. I am a little surprised that no one commented on its Z28 steering box, but perhaps no one on here knows why the same steering box was used for Z28s and six-bangers (I could find nothing in the '69 AIM showing the manual steering box numbers for various applications...where is the documentation for this?). The steering box has GM #5679142 and was cast on the 90th day of '69. The pitman arm carries GM #3953219 and appears to be slightly longer than 5" center-to-center. I found that it is shorter than a Z28's arm. My '70 six-banger Camaro also used a Z28 manual steering box...again, not sure why (and no one on the NastyZ28 forum knew why). Last photo shows the '70 Camaro's AIM page which indicates the Z28 and 6-cyl used the same steering box.
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The front springs still have their identification stickers...further testament to its low mileage and nearly 4 decades of dry storage. The stickers show this car was built with "EB"-coded springs...the lightest front springs that were used on '69 Camaros. This car had very few options that added weight...the "mountain motor" 250 six is supposedly slightly heavier than the stock 230 (but how...it has bigger holes!), and the U63 AM radio adds 6 pounds. Both stickers are extremely brittle and I didn't want to move them to the point I could photograph the codes for fear of destroying them.
Last photo is Charlotte at my buddy Scott's house. The "head-of-the-war-dept" (ie: wife) isn't keen on me working on the car at our house...what a pain!
Once up to speed the car has light and positive steering...no issues...a delight to take down a winding road!
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Manual steering boxes were same for several years ( Camaro , Chevelle , Nova and full size cars same just different pitman arms ) , longer pitman arm and different steering knuckles made for quicker steering ratio for Z cars and other cars ordered with f41 suspension . Have read if you ordered optional f41 on top of Z28 (very rare )steering boxes were couple turns less lock to lock ( different internals same outer casting and casting # ) and very difficult to turn if not rolling ( no fun at all to parallel park , not even for Popeye ) . Yours looks to be cast on 105 th day . The assembly date was typically 5 + - days after . Assembly date should be stamped on raised pad ( just need to wipe off dirt to see stamp ) near cover . Julian date followed by 9 for year . Hope to see this one at WTWW in Fairborn 2022 !
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And you can tell the boss that I think she should be honored to have you work on this car at you alls house !
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Cool story on the tires and thankfully they are going on a worthy car, and yes, be safe on them. I don't see any way your car would have a fake TT. I get that people are faking them, but everything that you have posted about Charlotte adds up to being legit. Great analogy on rarity!
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Hey MO...it was a joke!!! I like to insert some fun sh** once in awhile. I know there is no way that some fool would convert a V8 car into a 6, but I was nearly fool enough to create my own '69 6-banger from (12337 car) about 15 years ago with an original '69 with a swapped 350, 4-speed (swapped from the original 3-speed), and a really nice blue standard interior. I had located a donor '69 Nova with a 230 and a 3-on-the-tree column and was hoping to rebuild it to its original drivetrain. Unfortunately I waited a little too long and the car was sold (maybe it is now a '69 Z...I have that feeling).
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Hey Dave, it's nice to hear from you! Please give your lovely wife my kindest regards! For those of you not connected to Central Ohio, there is a very large hillbilly car show that is held in Fairborn (Dayton suburb next to Wright-Patterson AFB on the west side) that is called the "White Trash and Whitewalls Show", and is held every August (except last year, of course). My son Alex and I took our very beat-up '70 Camaro survivor with a 250 six-banger and a 3-speed manual trans (aka: Froggy...named by original woman owner from LA)...very possibly the only one left in existence. Dave was there with his wife and he knew about the car from the NastyZ28 website. I gave them a spin in the car and I think Dave was pretty impressed at how well it ran (a true 6-cylinder musclecar).
Why yes, I'll be back there again next summer with Charlotte, and I'll take you guys for a spin down the 675. Happy holidays!
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Yes, she should be honored...she doesn't "get" old cars.
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The semi-long-suffering dash project (now over a week) is nearly done...burned some midnight oil tonight while enjoying the great 45 deg evening (temp going down to 29 in the morning...rapidly losing light and the great weather) and got much work done. The initial problem was that the "inside-outside" air control arm on the left side of the heater control was completely busted. I called Charlotte's husband Lyle to ask if he remembered how the lever had been broken. He remembered it well...the car had been sitting in storage for about a year when he got it running on a chilly day. This would have been around 1984 and the car had received steadily less use and miles as the years passed. Lyle said the left lever was very hard to move and he tried to force it...and SNAP!
I got on Ebay and found a nice used unit in Clovis, NM that was in absolutely beautiful shape with its original cables (and no acne on the chrome bezel). Taking everything out (except the heater box) revealed the cause to be a sharply bent control cable. The cable is now straightened and lubed with some 3-M light machine oil...it now glides like butter. Cleaned the other 2 cables and also lubed them. This will do much to restore the drivability of the car...no fun going for a January warm-up and shake-down with an inop heater.
Note that the ash tray's rubber bumper (only one...other is MIA) is a tiny rectangle and not a round shape like the repops. I love the AAA "Fasten Seat Belts" sticker...put on by Charlotte herself. The glovebox is removed and you can get a clear view of the heater box, the sound deadening pad, and the top of the carpeting. The white wire goes to the right door jamb switch. Note the piece of masking tape covering the white wire's hold down, as well as the very wide piece of black tape to the right of it (purpose for both tapes unknown). Note also that the heater box is connected to the dash's black paper air duct with a heavier cardboard vertical band held together with metal staples. I bet this would be a real b***h to properly reproduce (I'll have to go look at Chick's restored Butternut Yellow '68 Z28 to see how this was restored/recreated). That car is totally INSANE...mind-numbing detail! Everything under the dash is beautiful and perfect, including the U63 pushbutton Delco AM radio and speaker. The antenna was replaced by an aftermarket unit after being broken by an unknown jerk 50 or so years ago (an NOS GM unit will replace it sometime this winter).
Next on the agenda is figuring out the engine's annoying timing problem (hey MO, it's not the plug wires or plugs, and not the distributor). I have an NOS GM 230/250 6-cylinder cam and might swap it in along with a Mellings timing gear set. I am very reluctant to take the head off as I don't want to break the original head gasket's sealing job.
Late here...must run.
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One last photo...the instrument cluster's assembly line ident sticker...coded "NA" for a standard cluster without a center fuel gauge or clock. The sticker is falling apart and will be glued back together...all of this stuff is irreplaceable and will remain as correct and perfect as possible.
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I’m not Dave but do know him , I actually live in the fair city (Fairborn ) Dave lives in same county different city. And picture of vr would be appreciated . Thanks .
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Hey MO...it was a joke!!! I like to insert some fun sh** once in awhile. I know there is no way that some fool would convert a V8 car into a 6, but I was nearly fool enough to create my own '69 6-banger from (12337 car) about 15 years ago with an original '69 with a swapped 350, 4-speed (swapped from the original 3-speed), and a really nice blue standard interior. I had located a donor '69 Nova with a 230 and a 3-on-the-tree column and was hoping to rebuild it to its original drivetrain. Unfortunately I waited a little too long and the car was sold (maybe it is now a '69 Z...I have that feeling).
Good one! I completely bought it.
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:)
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With the dash close to being done, I took Charlotte today for an hour-long drive north on SR 315 along the scenic twisting Olentangy River and caught 10 miles of beautiful fall colors, then further up US 23 from Delaware (Ohio, that is) to Marion and back...53 miles of soul-satisfying joy. She's got a little miss at idle, but still thrilling to drive. She is quite a little eye-catcher and receives constant attention and approving signs from other drivers.
I cleaned up the U63 radio and polished the dial lens with Simichrome polish and a clean t-shirt rag, plus Qtips for hard-to-reach areas. I painted the dial needle with Testor's fluorescent orange model paint and it really woke up the radio's front. The speaker was removed and 52 years of dead gnats and fine dust were cleaned away with an ultra-soft toothbrush. The speaker cloth has faded from dark gray to medium tan on the sunlight-exposed areas. Note that the cloth "button" is still in the speaker's center. The speaker's wiring and connector are in perfect condition, as well as the speaker's metal mounting bracket.
The heater box and controls project is now basically done with just the glovebox and lid, radio and speaker, and ashtray left to be bolted back in. Thought I would post a couple of pics of the radio and speaker for your enjoyment. Cars like this just don't come along every day, do they?
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Roadster, please extend my best regards to Dave and his wife (is she Connie?). I know he has a '70 Z and is always on NastyZ28.
I must apologize as I could not get a good close-up of the voltage reg. With my 20 yr-old digital camera I have to use macro to get good close-ups, but the code numbers are nearly impossible to photograph with detail due to their position even with the macro lens. The VR has the GM #1119515 and is dated "9B".
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Another thing on the car that needs to be addressed is the very warped dash pad. After removing it I can see why it has warped...improperly clipped to the dash shell which allowed it to warp from sun and heat exposure while inside the hot metal building in Nebraska where it sat for nearly 4 decades.
My good friend Scott thinks he can rescue the pad...it would be impossible to replace with anything appearing close to the appearance of the original bright green pad. I have seen the repop '69 pads...incorrect pebble graining, dull surface finish, completely incorrect looking in my opinion. I am not a fan of anything reproduction and would much rather recondition and resurrect either one of a car's original parts, or rehab an original part from Ebay. Scott's plan is to trim back the brittle plastic undershell to which the vinyl upper pad surface is affixed by approximately 1/4", then glue the upper pad to the shell using a clear RTV while using clamps and pieces of thick cardboard to act as a guide for the "new" edge while the RTV cures. I think it is possible, and it is obviously the only path I am comfortable with. If it doesn't work perfectly, I'll still be happier than I am with it in its current state, and I'm reasonably certain that it will look more presentable for shows.
Note in the first photo that there is a Sharpie pen pointing to a piece of masking tape that was painted over in the car's green interior paint (the tape is approx. 10" wide...purpose unknown). Also note another piece of masking tape further to the right on the pad's upper edge. The last 2 photos show the extent of the pad's severe curvature.
The '69 Camaro's dash pad design is far inferior to the much more robust design used during the first 2 years.
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Here are a couple of pics of Charlotte's emblems. She still has her built-with 250 "Mountain Motor" six-banger...approximately half of '69 Camaros with sixes came with the 250 "Turbo-Thrift" instead of the standard 230. It was a very torquey engine that was dead reliable and provided excellent fuel economy (19-22 mpg is what I get)...a well-regarded engine to this day. Many don't realize that Vince Piggins pushed heavily to have the 250 Mountain Motor produced so that young girl secretaries would have something to race during their lunch hours. The extra 15 horsepower could easily push top end of a Camaro so-equipped from 85 to 88 miles per hour ("Marty, the flux capacitor allows the car to go 88 miles per hour!", Professor Emmitt Brown :o). The cost of the slightly better 250 was a measly 25 bucks...chump change.
When I bought the car, the engine emblems were in a coffee can in the trunk and just needed a good polish to revive them. The original owner, Charlotte, did not like the emblems (including the metal dealer trunk emblem) and had them removed when the car was repainted at H&H Chevrolet in Omaha, NE around 1975. I was able to remove the battery and could see the holes for the right 250 emblem had been mudded...easily removed and I was able to put the emblem right back where it started.
The chromed potmetal Misle Chevrolet dealer trunk emblem had fortunately also been saved and was in a ziplock bag in the glove box (along with the plastic pouch that held the Protect-o-plate and owner's manual, and a treasure trove of interesting receipts, registrations, and matchbooks). Also in the bag were the original screws that had held the emblem (Home Depot sells essentially the same tiny screws, but they aren't chrome plated). I have always liked dealer emblems and few have survived to this day because most guys don't (they were fairly common back-in-the-day). The emblem was beat-up but usable. I was at a small car show in Sept. where I met a nice guy named Bill from Richwood, OH who owned a burgundy '69 Z28 with 12k original miles (the car had a flat hood and no spoiler and was absolutely stunning). He liked Charlotte and noted the original Misle emblem...and said he had one that he would give to me (figure the odds!!!). I met him for breakfast shortly after that and he gave me the spare emblem. It is in much better shape than the original, and I polished it to nearly new condition with Simichrome fine metal polish and put it on the taillight panel using the original drilled holes which were easily uncovered. Note that the dealer emblem is slightly off...not quite level. I decided to put it back on the same as it had been installed on the evening of Sept. 19, 1969.
If you're on here Bill, MANY THANKS!
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Nicely done!
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Hey MO...great to hear from you! I often wonder if anyone is actually reading this garbage I post...after all, it's a SIX-BANGER! As you can see, I like to throw in a zinger here and there just to keep from falling asleep while creating a post.
I just uncovered another really cool thing to add to Charlotte. I'm going to KC next weekend to visit my sister and will stop along the way to get this incredibly rare part. I'll post photos of it when I get back.
Thanks for your comments...much appreciated.
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One really cool thing about "Charlotte" is that she still had her Protect-o-plate in the glovebox. It is very difficult to find a 1st Gen Camaro with its original P-O-P (and there are many, many fakes out there...and more coming). I figured there might be some interest about what a real, actual, non-fake '69 Camaro P-O-P looks like (hey, maybe I should call this posting "How to spot a fake P-O-P"). Note the faded Misle Chevrolet dealer stamp below the metal plate. Dealer stamps on fakes nearly always look too dark and the fonts look like something from a Staples office supply store (they will make you a custom stamp). Note the yellowed "GM" tape with true 52 yr-old patina (aka: "age")...difficult to fake (the fake P-O-P's always have really new looking tape and are easy to spot). Another thing that's easy to spot is that the repop P-O-P booklets look brand new (because, oddly enough, they are), and the paper they're made from isn't the same thickness as the originals. Another thing is that many fakes don't even have real addresses on them (next time you see a suspected fake, run the address through Google and see if it is a real place..."123 Anyplace Street" is not an actual address :P). Another dead giveaway on a fake is that they don't have a yellowed glue edge visible (look at the bottom of this POP's metal plate and you will see the glue). Not all real ones have a portion of the glue strip visible, but most do. Note the stapled insert telling what maintenance the dealer will not cover.
I was at Hershey a couple of years ago and saw a guy comparing an original P-O-P to one from a '68 Camaro that was for sale. He said the easiest way to spot a fake is to compare it to an actual one...touché!
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Reply to #82,,,following👍
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I often wonder if anyone is actually reading this garbage I post...after all, it's a SIX-BANGER!
Oh my...... your posts could never be described as garbage !!! They are very informative and extremely enlightening. I, like others I'm sure, are always looking forward to the coming additional offerings of your passion to preserve your Camaro. Don't ever stop, and many, many thanks for all you've provided us up to this point.
My hat is off to you and your dedication to continuing this superbly informative (and often unobserved) side of the history of Camaro. Thank you.
Chuck
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Like Chuck says....Joe
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I certainly read everyone….and learned a few things!
Keep em coming!
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I enjoy your posts especially the early photos. It is like stepping back in time to a much different era.
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Wow...thanks to all of you. I have much more to post on "Charlotte" and I hope to stay on here to comment on others' cars. I feel welcome on this site...you're a great bunch of guys.
I know Charlotte is "different" and one of 3 (maybe 4) 6-cylinder '69s with a 3-speed manual that are still known to exist...the red convertible, the silver coupe with the flamed front, and maybe a Lemans Blue convertible...that's it. She is the most un-screwed with 1st Gen Camaro I have ever owned and I want other 1st Gen nuts to see her and all her little bits and pieces. I know that there is a ton of info already known about 1st Gens and probably little else will be learned in the future as there simply are no more cars to gather data from (other than the odd car like this one). Our hobby is changing...older guys like me who grew up in the '60s and '70s and saw these cars when they were brand new, either raced them or raced against them (that was me), and basically destroyed their original classic cars to make them into street racers (also me). Now these cars are approaching priceless status and, as a result, they are seldom street driven. Young guys can't afford them, and neither can most older guys. They are drivable works of art...stunningly beautiful from day one...easily the most beautiful design to come out of Detroit in the 1960s.
Over the last 30 years I have owned several 1st Gen Camaros...only one had a V8. The sixes were rare 30 years ago and always cheaper to buy...about $3-5k in 1990. I heard a lot from other Camaro guys then that a six-banger wasn't worth putting any money into, and I saw most of the sixes converted into V8s. I will preserve Charlotte the way she is because she deserves it...
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I often wonder if anyone is actually reading this garbage I post...after all, it's a SIX-BANGER!
Oh my...... your posts could never be described as garbage !!! They are very informative and extremely enlightening. I, like others I'm sure, are always looking forward to the coming additional offerings of your passion to preserve your Camaro. Don't ever stop, and many, many thanks for all you've provided us up to this point.
My hat is off to you and your dedication to continuing this superbly informative (and often unobserved) side of the history of Camaro. Thank you.
Chuck
Could not have said it better! I always look forward to reading your posts because you make it interesting, relatable and fun. It's great to read and learn about things that I have limited knowledge or experience of.
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Thanks MO. Not much known about the six-bangers, and not many left to look at. I tried to capture everything about the red Torque Drive-equipped "automatic" (that really wasn't an automatic ;)) a couple of years ago. I barely saved it from being converted to a SBC by GR Classic Autos in Grand Rapids, MI (they had been trying to sell the car for months and all of the prospective buyers wanted to swap the six out). My goal is to preserve "Charlotte" as she is.
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Yesterday was "Wheel Swap Day". Lyle (original owner Charlotte's husband) swapped the original FC-coded plain steel wheels out for more-fashionable Rally wheels sometime in the early '70s (Charlotte said he was the "king of the junkyards"...always looking for interesting stuff) and the plain wheels were discarded. I have noticed that virtually EVERY 1st Gen Camaro at shows has Rally wheels (usually repops with no valve stem codes) and that is a turn-off to me...nothing unusual about them...boring. A 1st Gen Camaro with hubcaps really gets noticed. Anyway, I digress...
I have been collecting parts for six-banger 1st Gens for about 30 years and had a complete set of them sitting in my basement car parts room. Unfortunately, after months of trying to sell them on Craigslist I finally gave up and stupidly scrapped them, figuring I would never need them as I was keeping my one-of-one '70 six-banger Camaro (and preparing for a move to Florida...on hold for another year...didn't want to move the heavy wheels). Then my current six-banger showed up and needed a set...figure the odds!
Back on CL and Fleabay for yet another round of searching for rare six-banger parts that no one else really gives 2 s**ts about...this time FC-coded wheels. I found a guy in Northern Calif with 3 that had been powder-coated gloss black. He had bought them from an older guy who was putting them on a 1st Gen Firebird, then decided to install disk brakes and the drum-brake FC wheels wouldn't work. The wheels and shipping cost me $500, but I was happy with their condition. I had oddly enough saved a single Butternut Yellow FC wheel in the garage that was still in good condition, and I painted it with gloss black to match the rest. One wheel was dated for June 24th of '69, and the other 3 had '68 dates...the date codes are not important to me as this is a street driver, not a trailer queen. Note the '69's "FC" is smaller than the '68's stamping...again, I don't care.
I made an appointment with Goodyear in nearby Marysville to do the job, but arrived on time to find out that someone else had jumped in front of me and I would have to wait 45 mins...I left for Malwart. I generally do not like going to Malwart because it's usually kids doing the tire busting, but this one has some older guys who use a torque wrench to tighten the lug nuts. I arrived and no other customers were there...bingo!
New wheels really look great and take the car back to nearly original. I'm happy.
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I'm 100% certain that this car still has its original lug nuts. Of the 20 lugs, 15 were stamped "RBW", and 5 had triangle-shaped marks. Note that the nuts have virtually no wear and are in great shape.
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The tire buster at Walmart tried to clean the sidewalls of the Uniroyal Tiger Paws that Lyle had installed 3 years ago when the car was moved from a farm in Minden, NE to his house in rural Arkansas. Lyle had never cleaned off the blue protective spray from the whitewalls, and it had transmogrified into a dark brown...the stuff the tire buster was using didn't make a dent in the dried mess. I took some Brillo pads and Soft Scrub to them and got decent results.
This car was originally built with dog-dish hubcaps, but original owner Charlotte had them swapped for more-fashionable mag-style hubcaps at Misle Chevrolet. I was not a big fan of this style of hubcap, but they have grown on me and I will leave them alone. These hubcaps were $70 a set and were available either factory-ordered or as a dealer add-on. I have only seen a couple of sets of them on 1st Gen Camaros at shows. Two different styles of these caps were used, and they can be differentiated by the size of the cooling holes. The first style was used from '64-'66 and has smaller holes, and the 2nd style from '67-'70. They are heavy as hell!
The Uniroyal Tiger Paws are P195-75-14 and are excellent for a daily driver (and the closest currently-made size to the original E78-14 bias-ply tires). I like them better than Chinese or Korean tires...US made tires are more correct in my opinion, and Uniroyal was an OEM tire supplier to GM when this car was built.
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Looks good...Joe
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Back in the 1970s, I bought new 15 x 7 inch Kelsey Hayes steel wheels for my 1966 Mustang for $27.50 each and mounted Pirelli CN36 235/15 tires. After making the Shelby 1 inch modification, I took the Mustang to my local Goodyear dealer and it took them some time to align the suspension!
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Looks great! I am a big fan of the mag style wheel covers. Great that Walmart would do the tires for you. Discount Tire in CA would not even check the tire pressure on a set I had that had reached the ten year old mark.
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"Charlotte" has some interesting stickers scattered throughout. On the left outside of the windshield is a 1982 Nebraska State Vehicle Inspection sticker. Back then, Nebraska had yearly safety inspections. The car's inspections stopped then when the car began 39 years of storage in '83 (35 of them in a machine shed in Milford, NE). The lower right outside has a 1974 Omaha City Resident sticker. Inside the glovebox is a satin sticker commemorating the 1970 Nebraska Cornhuskers football team and head coach Bob Devaney. The Huskers won the NCAA National Football Championship back-to-back in '70 and '71. Charlotte is a big Nebraska fan to this day.
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The weather here yesterday was beautiful...clear and mild for most of the afternoon. I took Charlotte on a 20 mile-long loop of backroads in Delaware County (north of Columbus...rapidly being developed as the metro area expands northward). There are 2 scenic rivers that flow through the county, the Olentangy and Scioto Rivers, and there are some very nice twisty roads to drive along the rivers and through several untouched villages...with virtually no traffic on weekdays.
A good bit of Fall colors still hanging around (literally and figuratively). Enjoy...
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Beautiful, love the fall days in the Midwest.
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Hope you were able to obtain the incredibly rare part , anxious to see what it is . Rare parts are the icing on the cake ! You are perfect caretaker for this car from what I’ve seen .
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Roadster, many thanks.
As you may know from following this thread, I recently found a complete set of late-'67 dated Goodyear E78-14 bias-ply whitewalls on '68 Camaro FC-coded wheels and bought them immediately. Now the only thing I needed was an original Delco battery for Charlotte. I started looking as soon as I bought the car (Labor Day weekend) and found several that might have been suitable, but they weren't "assembly line" batteries. I was at Hershey about 10 years ago and chanced upon a silver '69 Chevelle 300 4-door with a 250 six and Powerglide, a barn-find car with quite a bit of surface rust, but complete with 18k original miles and its original P-O-P. It needed paint and a small amount of bodywork, but was otherwise in excellent condition. I could've bought it for $2,500 and foolishly decided to buy it right after another guy bought it. In the engine compartment was a Delco R59 battery with the same sticker that this battery has, "Recommend Replacement With Energizer R59". I was looking for an original R59 battery with that sticker, which I was sure indicated an assembly line-installed battery.
About 3 weeks ago I saw that same battery on Ebay and bought it for $399. The seller wanted me to pick it up in metro KC...and it just so happened that I was going to visit my sister in KC within 2 weeks. I picked it up this weekend and it is in absolutely beautiful condition.
I asked the seller ("Oliver") if he knew anything about the battery's history. He buys and sells classic GM parts...most are found on Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace. He found the battery sitting off to the side of a garage in Missouri where he was buying another part and was told it was from a Nova of unknown year...all I know about it. It appears to me that it is an original assembly line, and probably rare.
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The original battery cables are still in the car, although they are missing their original spring ring ends. The negative cable has GM number 6297646 and was coded "AP" on the buildsheet. The positive cable has number 6297653 and was coded "EB" on the buildsheet (note...I do not have the buildsheet for this car). I will keep the original cables despite the lack of the original ends.
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I haven't posted anything on here for a while due to nothing to post, but I haven't been asleep at the switch, so-to-speak. Charlotte (my '69 Camaro for the uninitiated) has had a continuing annoying issue of a miss at idle. I traced the problem to the number 5 cylinder and tried everything electrical with no luck. The miss would clear up above 2k rpm which I thought was unusual (I tried to set the idle at 2k, but it proved too temperamental for everyday driving...insert sarcasm here). I knew the problem was either a bent pushrod, bent valve, or a bad cam lobe. All pushrods were removed and all were in beautiful straight condition. The next logical thing to replace was the cam. I was shocked to learn that NAPA, Advance Auto, and Autozone no longer carry cams for 194-230-250 six bangers...dammit! My next source was Fleabay. On there I found a guy selling an OEM Wolverine stock replacement for $60...SOLD! I bought a set of Sealed Power lifters from NAPA. I also bought a replacement timing gear set, but that would have required pulling the crank gear which would have probably necessitated either pulling the engine or raising it up considerably to access the gear (the Chilton's manual said to pull the engine), so I decided to reuse the original fiber gear (which was in great shape). I tried to find an NOS fiber timing gear on Fleabay with no luck. The engine has only 45k original miles, so I don't think there will be any issues with reusing the original gear.
After pulling the cam I could see the problem immediately...a wiped-out number 5 exhaust lobe (you can plainly see it in the first photo). Charlotte's husband Lyle had used a mechanic in Arkansas who employed the time-honored hillbilly method of towing the car behind a pickup and dumping the clutch to get the engine running (hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time), so I think I know why the cam lobe got wiped out.
Anyway, I now know what the issue is and will get the new cam and lifters installed ASAP...full report when the project is completed.
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Congrats! I'm finally posting.
This car had 2 obvious body problems on the assembly line...a poorly fitting left door, and a fairly large blob of lead on the passenger side roof that was painted over by Fisher Body...those are the reasons I think this car spanned 2 shifts.
I'm not convinced either are original issues, esp since the car was repainted. Nor that it has anything to do with the shifts.
You are misreading the tire dates: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12259.0
The same steering box was used on most cars: http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#steer
I would never run a 50+ nylon timing gear. :)
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I would never run even a new nylon timing gear!
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Summit Racing sells a Melling replacement fiber camshaft gear for the Chevrolet 250 engine:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-2542/applications/model/camaro/engine-type/l6/year/1969/make/chevrolet
A seller on eBay is selling the same Melling 2542 with the crankshaft gear:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/324404699715?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160811114145%26meid%3Dc788e1f641af44ec9d2fc6f10d401925%26pid%3D100667%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D8%26sd%3D125040135426%26itm%3D324404699715%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2334524%26brand%3DMelling&_trksid=p2334524.c100667.m2042
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Greetings to all, and many thanks for all of the info! Kurt, nice to hear from you and get some misconceptions cleared up. I try to figure things out using the info that's already been gathered on here, but many times I end up making an educated guess about whatever comes up. I have also been relying on Charlotte and Lyle for the car's history.
My main issue with the timing gears is that I don't want to have to pull the engine out and replace the crankshaft gear...a real pain-in-the-a**, and I worried about trying to mesh a new cam gear with the existing metal crank gear. I prefer to use original GM parts, but those are few and far between 50-plus years later. My next best option was to get a new fiber gear and hope it meshed properly with the existing crank gear, but came up empty at all of the auto parts stores. A search on Ebay a month ago also proved fruitless, but I don't think I was using the correct search parameters to locate the correct gear. I ordered a new gear using the Ebay link provided by GMAD (thanks Mark...much appreciated!) and will check it for proper fit/meshing when it arrives in a couple of days. I looked at the original gear under high magnification and found no visible wear of any kind, but I know that gear design was problematic for obvious reasons. The fact that the original low-mile cam is bad due to lack of oiling while trying to start the engine after its 39 year nap makes me think that the fiber gear is possibly also compromised...it needs to be replaced.
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Happy holidays to all on here. The new fiber camshaft gear arrived a couple of days ago and was an identical match to the original one. The cam is 32 inches long and the camshaft gear is 6 inches in diameter, necessitating removing the radiator, grill, front bumper and front valance panel, followed by removing the bolt holding the passenger side of the engine to the frame mount enabling that side of the engine to be rotated to the point where the old cam to be removed and the new one installed. The new cam was thoroughly lubed with red Permatex assembly lube which enabled it to be easily installed. The timing cover was reinstalled with new Felpro cork and neoprene gaskets. The front end parts were reinstalled and Charlotte's pretty face returned. I soaked the new Sealed Power lifters in motor oil for several hours to work any small air bubbles out. The pushrods and rockers are now installed and have the correct preliminary adjustment (they will be readjusted after the engine has been run a few minutes). I replaces the original sidecovers which had little remaining paint with a another set of covers from a '69 Nova engine I had a couple of years ago...they are a little different shade of orange, but will brighten up the engine considerably for future car shows. The distributor already has new Delco points and is ready to go. New AC R46N plugs are properly gapped and installed.
The engine is now ready for start-up and camshaft break-in. I'll keep you posted.
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A couple more pics...
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Merry Christmas, "sixbanger" !!!! And thanks for the update on the cam gear replacement. Hope your New Year is spectacular.
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I admire that you are so hands on with your cars and share your experiences!
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Hi Alex,
Do you have the tool to line up timing cover on crank shaft so you don’t get oil leaking around seal?
I found if you don’t use the tool it’s hard to get a good seal.
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Delco 115 and MO...thanks...I enjoy working on old cars and enjoy sharing my info. Paul, it's great to hear from you. I didn't use the tool you mentioned and didn't even know such a tool existed. I usually don't have any leak problems with repairs as I try to be thorough and I seldom do anything quickly.
I started Charlotte last night and ran her for 20 mins at around 1,500-2,000 rpm (no tach, so I had to SWAG it..."Silly Wild-Ass Guess" :P). Today will be the final rocker arm adjustment and the start of another small repair project on the very sticky left rear window (extremely hard to roll up and down, necessitating removing the back seat and figuring the problem out). I'll post some pics for you all.
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Yesterday was "back seat removal day"...time to figure out the back window issue. The seat's "push hard and pull up" design leaves a lot to be desired, but it finally came out. I was met with a lot of red primer covering virtually every square inch of surface...Charlotte's husband Lyle's attempt at banishing future rust, no doubt. The photos pretty much speak for themselves. Note the worn but original look of everything. The seat belt tags are all dated around the late Apr - early May '69 timeframe (body build date "05E"). Note also that the beautiful trunk board looks ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like the repop garbage versions sold now as "correct" (go figure!). The rear window shelf also appears to be NOTHING like its repop version, and it also appears to have been painted with actual Frost Green body paint. The underside of it looks like it had a layer of foam sound deadener affixed that has now come completely off (vestiges of it are still visible). The seat cushions look to be extremely complex with numerous hog rings holding everything together. Note the loose gray formed sound deadening pad lying loosely inside the bottom cushion (see close-up pic). The date on the left rear panel is "4-18-69", manufactured by Seaman Industries (still listed on the Internet as a manufacturer of auto parts in Roseville, MI). The right panel has only a very tiny stamp with the part number and a date code. The carpet has faded quite a bit...it was originally a nearly perfect shade of light green, but has now faded to a medium olive (a dirty medium olive, I might add). Both back windows need some serious lubrication and cleaning, which they will receive. I found a couple of matchbooks for 1st Federal savings of Lincoln Nebraska and the University of Nebraska Student Union, plus a ball-point pen for the Kut N' Kurl Hair Salon in Portsmouth, Nebraska.
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Upper seat cushion
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Trunk board
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Rear side panels
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Happy New Year, Love your posts. Keep them comin!!
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68sixBangerRS,
Just ran across your pics! Very cool car! Really enjoy your detail picks. Years ago when I as a member of the Central Indiana Camaro Club (based in Indianapolis), there was member who had a basic 6-cylinder '69 Camaro convertible in the same color as yours. The Camaro was restored but retained its original drive train, and a very rare 1st Gen for the fact it was not abused and converted to a V8. The engine idled smooth and purred! I have a restored, highly optioned '69 RS Z28, but I loved this 6-cylinder Camaro for what it was!
BTW...that red mark on your trunk seal is commonly found on survivor Camaros. I have pictures of this mark from several survivor '69s that I have photo documented. I understand that the red mark was used to start and position the middle of trunk seal in the upper middle area of the trunk seal channel so that the ends came together along the bottom area of the channel. This help eliminate water leaks into the trunk.
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Dave...thanks for the photos of the Frost Green '69 convertible. It looks like an absolute gem...I appreciate the photos and the info on the trunk seal paint mark. And Her 68-His 69, thank you for the kind words...also much appreciated. It appears from your avatar that you also have a 1st Gen Camaro with a 6-cylinder...we would all love to see more photos of both of your Camaros!
I thought I would give you all an update on the camshaft swap and its outcome. As you may know, "Charlotte" (named for the original owner) sat in dry storage for approximately 38 years. Charlotte and her husband Lyle enlisted the services of a mechanic (a shadetree mechanic) to get the car running after its very long nap. This involved pulling the car with a pickup truck while dumping the clutch. This was extremely hard on the engine because no attempt to pump up the oil pressure was made, causing excessive heat to the engine's internals. This wiped out one of the exhaust lobes on the cam and caused a noticeable miss at idle. The cam was replaced with an NOS cam made by Wolverine which had a GM number on it (Wolverine probably bought the mold from GM to make the cam). The cam was installed with new Sealed Power lifters and plenty of assembly lube, plus a high-zinc engine additive. The engine was run at 1,500-2,000 rpm for 45 minutes and then driven approximately 10 miles...a proper break-in.
Unfortunately, the engine still has some sort of mechanical shudder for 5-10 seconds in every 60 second period. The mechanical sound is loudest (using the old screwdriver on the engine block trick) at the back of the engine...either the number 5 or 6 cylinder. I believe this sound is being caused by a slightly bent valve. I have a perfect head from a '74 Chevy 250 that I will swap while the original head is completely rebuilt. "Charlotte" is currently sitting in the garage until the weather improves in 2-3 months.
She will be going to two big shows this year...the 2022 VCCA (Vintage Chevrolet Club of America) Eastern Nationals in late July in Bowling Green, KY, and the Camaro Supernats in Ypsilanti, MI. She may have the incorrect cylinder head, but by God she'll be at those shows!
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I almost forgot to post photos of the latest little side project...replacing the badly pitted chrome pieces behind the doors. I am an absolute purist regarding originality ("they're only original once"), and I realized that pulling the back seat and rear interior panels would give me access to the speed nuts holding the side chrome pieces in place. I had a decent set of those pieces with only minor pitting and installed them to spiff up the car's appearance. I have no problem installing nice used parts on Charlotte, but I will never install repop parts...puke!
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Can you post close up photos of the jacking instructions on the underside of the trunk lid? Also, in your 1st post, you stated: "The air cleaner has some surface rust, but still has most of its original paint, as well as a nearly perfect "250 Turbo-thrift" sticker and its side sticker ("Keep your GM car all GM")." Can you post a closeup photo of the sticker on the side of the air cleaner? Thanks!
Bernie
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Bernie, I haven't been on here for many months...I will post the photos you requested as soon as I get to the storage building where I keep the car.
"Charlotte" has been out-of-commission for nearly a year due to her poorly running 6-banger. To refresh your memories, she sat in a machine shed in Nebraska for about 35 years (1983-2018) on the farm owned by Charlotte's brother Bob (Charlotte was the original owner). Bob and his two sons decided in 2018 to get the Camaro running again. so they did it the old fashioned way by tying it to a pickup truck with a long chain and then dragged it to jump start it by popping the clutch. Unfortunately, they neglected to pull the distributor and pump the engine oil up with a drill on the oil pump shaft. They succeeded in wiping out the camshaft's number 5 exhaust lobe (an NOS GM cam was installed but did not fully correct the problem) and caused another unknown problem inside the engine. It still has a persistent and highly noticeable vibration problem from idle up to 3,000 rpm, which I suspect is due to a bent number 5 exhaust valve.
My intention is to have the Camaro's original 250 "BE" coded engine completely gone through by Tom Lowe who runs a shop called "12 Bolt Engines" in Dysert, IA. Tom is nationally recognized for his expert machine work on GM rear ends, as well as 6-cylinder and 4-cylinder engines of all makes and persuasions. Tom Lowe is good friends with Tom Langdon, who was formerly the recognized expert on 6-cyliner engines and ran a machine shop specializing in them in Utica, MI (he retired in 2017). Unfortunately, my desired machine shop is booked through the rest of this year, so what should I do right now? How about getting on Craigslist and looking for a good running Chevy 6 to swap into Charlotte and allow me to drive her until her original engine is rebuilt? Good idea!
I started looking for the aforementioned 6-banger before Christmas. I found only a few 230s and 250s and none were suitable. Most had been sitting in Chevy pickups that were being converted to LS-power, or had been disassembled and were now basically junk. And then I hit paydirt. I found a guy in Austin. MN who was taking the perfectly-running 230 out of a '70 Nova coupe with 40k original miles, and swapping in a 396/375 hp to create a phony SS. I called the guy (John) and learned he was 74 years-old, retired, and a recent widower. The Nova had belonged to his wife's aunt and was a 100% original museum piece. John's wife would never let him touch her aunt's Nova, but now that he was alone he could recreate the '69 Nova 396/375 he had owned as a young punk.
I pulled my son Alex (age 10) out of school on a Friday with the old "sneezing with a low fever" excuse, and we headed to U-haul to rent an open trailer for 3 days. We drove my beloved 2000 Camry on the trip (simply an AWESOME car) and spent two nights in hotels on the trip. We arrived at John's modest ranch house in Austin at noon on Saturday (2 weekends ago). The Nova was Frost Green (same color as my '69 Camaro) and heartbreakingly original (dark green cloth bench seat, rubber floor mat in pristine condition, radio delete (note the delete plate in attached photo), tinted glass, and Powerglide tranny). In fact, the entire car was in pristine condition. I paid $400 for the engine which included the beautiful, nearly-perfect air cleaner and 1970-dated original Delco plug wires, as well as the original Delco "202" coil and plug wire separators. John was also nice enough to sell me the original front speaker cardboard block-off plate, since he didn't need it.
I anticipate having Charlotte back on the road with the next few weeks, and I will be attending the Camaro Supernats in Ypsilanti, MI this summer. Next year she will get her 3-on-the-tree shifter returned to working condition (she currently has a floor shifter from an early '70s Nova).
My
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Some pics of the 230.
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The air cleaner cleaned up beautifully with Simple Green, an ultra-soft bristle tooth brush, and liquid Turtle Wax, and is even nicer than my '69's original. I will be putting this on Charlotte's engine with the top from her original air cleaner (which has a beautiful and nearly perfect "250" decal).
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Cool story!
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MO, nice to hear from you again. I'll be posting about the engine swap soon. I'll have the only 230 equipped 3-speed manual coupe left in existence. I'm betting it'll run great. Best regards, Alex
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Alex, I appreciate what you are doing and look forward to your posts! I always check here for updates.
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Thanks MO...it's a labor of love. It's interesting how the 6 cylinder Camaros I have owned have received increased interest over the past couple of years. Most of the Camaro guys who have seen my latest two '69s now realize that there are almost none left in existence, which is amazing considering that 26% of them were produced with sixes.
Charlotte has it all...rarity, originality, paperwork, complete known history...the Camaro I sought for 35 or 40 years. The fact that it was right under my nose (owned by my nephew's mother-in-law since new) for several years only adds to its mystique.
I'm attaching an article from the Jan. 2022 issue of the VCCA's (Vintage Chevrolet Club of America...I am a member) monthly magazine, the Generator and Distributor (a wonderful publication). The cover car is a '69 Camaro with its original 250 and 3-on-the-tree shifter. It is owned by its original owner, Glenn Kope from North Carolina. The car is equipped very much like mine...RPO Z21 Style Trim Group, same drivetrain, whitewall tires, AM radio, but also has the "hockey stripe", front bumper guards, power steering, and full wheel covers (my car has tinted glass, which I think is a very nice option to have). If there is any interest on here I will post the entire article. Glenn had the entire car restored and it has won several prestigious awards.
I'm happy to leave my car unrestored (although it will receive a professional repaint sometime in the next 2 or 3 years), as I prefer cars that are as close to original as possible.
I know of only four '69 Camaros with 6-bangers and 3-speed manuals...mine, Glenn's, a silver coupe with a blue interior and ghost flames that was for sale in AZ a few years ago, and the red convertible with a red interior and white top that was for sale in VA a few years ago (I'm guessing that car probably was swapped to a V8). As I have said previously...rarer than a ZL1 (yes, I have heard the worn-out saying that "rare doesn't equal desirable", but that no longer applies to 1st Gen Camaros with sixes. Go to any show with one and you will see a high level of interest in them. I took Charlotte to a local show in Ohio that was sponsored by a Corvette club, and there was a steady stream of people who came to examine her. Parked next to her was a Rally Green '68 RS/SS 396 convertible that received hardly a glance.
I have owned two '69 Camaros with 250 six cylinders and 3-speed manuals, and both took several months for their dealerships to unload (Charlotte was built in May, but not sold until Sept.). Glenn Kope's '69 was also difficult for the dealer to sell due to its oddball drivetrain.
My plans for Charlotte are to temporarily swap in the 230 while her 250 is rebuilt, put the 3-on-the-tree shifter back in her, and put Frost Green wheels with dog dish hubcaps in place of the current black wheels with mag hubcaps (the car was built with them...the original Frost Green spare wheel is still in the trunk).
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This shows the options on Glenn Kope's '69.
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Awesome! Every Camaro enthusiast should appreciate these cars in my opinion because they were the backbone of production. Wish there were more of them around. You and other likeminded owners deserve a lot of credit for saving these cars for the rest of the community to enjoy!
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Very nice! I’d like to read that article. And yes, the 6 cars are rarely seen.
People used to walk by, and now they stop and look confused. Car show judges get stopped dead in their tracks on how to score the engine compartment.
Super Chevy at Virginia Motorsports Complex was a great day. What started with the judge assigned to the Camaros evolved into 7 judges reminiscing about swapping out a 6 for an 8 back in the day, and had no clue. So they asked and I gave a class about the 6 engine compartments. Best car show day!
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David K...I see you have a '68 with a 6-banger, but I couldn't find it in your 35 pages (what-the-hell?!) worth of posts. Congrats on not destroying it with yet another BORING V8 swap. Doesn't it feel good to go to a show with something that is truly rare and cool (and drives people nuts)?
I was stationed in "Sandy Eggo" from 1978-84 at 32nd Street Naval Station and owned a couple of cool F-bodies...a blue '67 RS with a 327 and a 4-speed that I bought for $1,200 from a guy in Ramona. I put an Edelbrock Torker intake and a Holley 650 on it, as well as Hooker headers, a Hurst shifter to replace the Muncie, and a 12-bolt posi rear from a junkyard in San Ysidro (I think it was $350). I stupidly sold it for $3,500 to another squid so I could buy a new KZ1000. My other F-body was a '69 Trans Am I bought in Tijuana for $500 in March of '80. It was in extremely rough shape, but I intended to keep it and restore it. I stored it at 4-A ("AAAA") Auto Storage in the Gaslamp Quarter (oldest part of downtown SD for the uninformed) during a Westpac (a 9 month-long deployment to the Indian Ocean and Persian Gulf). When I returned to reclaim my prize, it had been stripped of all of its Trans Am parts. Not having a crystal ball to look into the next century to see all of those parts being reproduced, I figured I would never be able to find the rare '69 TA-specific parts and I sold the car for $3,000 to a Pontiac collector from Newport Beach. It was equipped with its original Ram Air III engine, an M-21 4-speed, posi rear, rare factory gauges and tach, rare '69-only Formula wheel (2nd Gen Formula wheels were slightly different), blue standard interior, power steering and brakes, an AM radio, Rally II wheels, and factory AC. It also had red "Ram Air" decals on the hood which I have never seen on another '69 TA (very faded...hard to see in the first photo). The photos below show me as a 22 yr-old punk with a bad attitude 8). Note that the license plate is from the Mexican state of Fronteras de Baja California ("Front BC").
Per your request I am posting the VCCA article on Glenn Kope's '69 six-banger Camaro. He is mistaken in thinking that his '69 was produced with a leftover '68 3-on-the-tree steering column ('69s are the only First Gens that had their ignition switches on the steering columns). He is also mistaken in thinking that he has the only '69 Camaro with a six-banger and a 3-on-the-tree (mine will have its 3-speed returned to its original column-shift by this time next year). I contacted him to talk about his car and mine, but he decided not to stay in touch...his choice.
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The article will take several posts due to the 4 photo limit.
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2nd set of pics.
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3rd set.
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3rd set.
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Last set...whew!
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What a cool story!
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Just wanted to give you all an update on the engine swap (sorry...no V8...just another crappy 6-banger :'( ). "Charlotte" has been undriven and in storage for most of the past year due to her increasingly poor-running original 250. Although she has extremely low miles, an unfortunate attempt at getting her to run after 35 years of storage caused internal damage and sidelined her until now.
An ad on Craigslist 3 months ago for an original 230 engine from a Frost Green 1970 Nova caught my eye, and my son Alex and I headed for Austin, MN to pick it up. The engine is 100% original and untouched, and still has its anti-dieseling solenoid, CCS solenoid, and original 1970 date-coded plug wires.
A few hours spent with 2 cans of carb cleaner, Simple Green, an ultra-soft toothbrush, an old t-shirt, and Q-tips really cleaned things up nicely. The engine is now ready to install.
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The 230 is "shore purty" now. The back surface of the valve cover has traces of the paper sticker that denoted it was a 230 for a manual trans-equipped car. Note the "X" on the back of the cylinder head...probably from its final inspection at the Flint, MI engine plant.
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The original 250 took 30 minutes to yank out. This car is dead-simple to work on with tons of room in the engine compartment.
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The engine is out for the first time since it was built. It will be professionally machined and reinstalled within the next couple of years.
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A few detail shots of the engine compartment. Note the small green tag on the engine's wire harness (visible to the right of the master brake cylinder).
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Way cool. I see the cylinder head has been plugged and the smog pump bracket is there….The carb looks correct as well.
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Wow, super clean! Amazing to see no rust, especially in the battery tray.
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David and MO, it is nice to hear from you both. I'm looking forward to meeting some of you guys one of these days. My intention is to take Charlotte to the Camaro Supernats in the Detroit area this July, so perhaps I'll see you there.
David, I see you have a 6-banger '68, and it appears you have in-depth knowledge of 1st Gen sixes as you know about the air pump holes in the cylinder head and that the pump bracket is correct (only the manual trans-equipped sixes got the smog pumps). Not many Camaro guys know about what is and isn't correct for a 6-banger, as most junked the original engines for V8s. I'm impressed.
When the original 250 has been rebuilt, it will go back in along with the smog pump and air tubes (you can see my post about the air pump earlier in this thread).
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IIy must not take much to impress you...🤔😂. Ive learned a thing or 2 about the 6 cars. I'm flying out for the Nationals in Morgantown and DC area to help my good friend fix his unrestored 67 vert. He's 83 and not as nimble, but thinks he is.
If you'll be there, let me know.
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Not likely this year, but maybe next; you never know. But I might make the Camaro National's with a little good timing though if you have plans for that. It would be my pleasure to hook up with you, Charlotte and David.
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The "new" 230 engine is completely original. The engine's stamp indicates it was assembled on May 15th, 1970 at the Flint, MI plant. It also has a partial VIN...something that was not always done on 6-cylinder engines that I have seen (and owned).
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The engine is completely original, including its starter. It is a 40k mile engine...an incredible rarity these days. The starter cleaned up beautifully. Its date indicates it was assembled on May 5th, 1970.
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Since the '70 engine has a good carb stove, I decided to use its beautiful air cleaner. The paint is nearly perfect and it really shines. Note the date code in green paint which shows it was assembled on the 122nd day of 1970.
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The fan was cleaned with polishing compound and Turtle Wax.
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Dropping the 230 in was easy...it slid right in.
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A close-up of the carb's heat shield.
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I am happy to report the engine swap was a complete success. The 230 produces excellent power and easily keeps up with modern traffic. I can't really tell much difference between the 230 and a 250...the best way to drive it is to give it plenty of pedal off the line and shift to 2nd at 20-25 mph, then shift to 3rd at 40-45. It cruises easily at 75, but it seems happier at 65-70. Most drivers follow behind at a close distance to watch it glide down the hiway. It produces many smiles and thumbs up...I like it a lot. :)
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Awesome! Thanks for the follow up!!
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Fantastic news!
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Sweet Progress. & Having Fun for sure
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I’ve never seen the carburetor heat shield before…..found it in a parts book for 1970 models.
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David...you are correct, Sir...the heat shield is from a 1970. I swapped in the 230 "as-is"...in its original 1970 configuration. It has an obnoxious exhaust leak which has prompted me to replace the manifold gasket (progressing nicely...should be done by this evening). The leak didn't prevent me from taking Charlotte out and driving her for a shakedown run of 50 hiway miles. The 230 stumbled some from idle up to middle RPMs, which I believe may be due to the leak. The original Monojet carb from the 250 is going on the 230, and I am removing the non-1969 items like the CCS solenoid and the anti-dieseling solenoid, but I am considering keeping the heat shield as I think it's a good idea and may improve the car's drivability in summer conditions.
Thanks to all for your kind words. I think Charlotte is going to attract a great deal of attention due to her now unusual drivetrain. I am glad she is appreciated on here for her originality.
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I would check the nuts that hold the “wing washers” to the cylinder head. They do tend to loosen up over time. Verify the carb rubber plugs/vacuum advance hose is good.
Have you checked the dwell for the points?
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The points looked like new...no appreciable wear or burn spots. The manifold gasket still had factory orange paint on it (the original). Once the manifold was removed the source of the leak was obvious...the gasket was compromised in two places (see first photo). Our weather changed from 67 deg and sunshine at noon to 50 deg with rain and high winds at 2pm, so the replacement project will have to wait until tomorrow.
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A couple more pics of Charlotte because I know you appreciate what a little beauty she is. :)
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Glad you found the broken gasket…..she should run much better. I would advise you to split the manifolds and replace the gasket because it’s already apart.
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A couple more pics of Charlotte because I know you appreciate what a little beauty she is. :)
Yes we do!
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David...absolutely will.
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Taking off the 230's manifold revealed a couple of issues. First issue was that the number 2 and 5 cylinder exhaust surfaces on the manifold were heavily pock-marked, indicating that those two areas had been leaking for quite awhile. Since the engine has only 40k miles, I'm guessing the Flint factory's sealing job was marginal from the very start and that it probably began leaking shortly after the car was purchased.
The second issue was that the manifold's number two exhaust port had a small but clearly visible crack that was allowing smoke to exit (I tried to get a picture of the crack, but my digital camera's resolution and flash weren't up to the task).
Hmmm...what to do. One of the best things about driving 1,600 miles round-trip to Austin, MN to buy the 40k mile 230 engine from a little-old-lady '70 Nova was that I had essentially an identical twin to my '69 Camaro's original 250. Aside from the obvious cubic-inch difference, the only real differences between the two engines are that the '69 head employed an AIR pump (its head has ports for the air pump's tubes that the '70's head lacks), and the '70 used a carburetor stove for the air cleaner's Therm Vac setup. I pulled the '69's manifold and it was smooth and clean...no issues. To make David K happy ( 8) ) I separated the manifold (for the uninitiated, the "6-banger's" manifold has an intake half and an exhaust half that are joined by a square gasket) and replaced the gasket that joins the halves.
Ok...now the beautifully-running 230 from the little-old-lady '70 Nova has the manifold from the sick, vibrating 250 from the 46k mile '69 Camaro (just wanted to fully explain this little hybrid arrangement for anyone who came into the story late).
How does she run?...PERFECTLY!!! ;)
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This is the 230's manifold. The number two and three cylinder's use a siamesed exhaust port, and I'm sure you can see the pock-marked surface. In the second photo you can see the less-damaged siamesed port for cylinders four and five.
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This is the '69's manifold...much cleaner. I also kept the 250's original carb...recently rebuilt and performs smoothly.
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This is everything bolted back together and purring like a kitten. She sounds like what she is...a '69 Camaro with a little-old-lady Singer sewing machine in the engine compartment. ::).
I will give you all a complete report of Charlotte's shake-down run later today. Columbus is supposed to have temps in the low 70s and sunshine today...a good day for a run up to Bucyrus on old hiway 98.
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Where was the Nova built, Willow Run? I've seen those Canadian starters before, but wasn't sure if they were imported new or not.
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Kurt...yes, the '70 Nova was a Willow Run car. I have also seen Canadian-built original starters before, but I wasn't aware they were appreciably different.
I am always upset when I see a museum-quality survivor Chevy with a 6-banger destroyed to build a hot rod, but I also understand the desirablity factor...the "need for speed". Had I not been able to buy this beautiful little 230, my Camaro would have languished a bit longer.
Here are a couple more photos of the donor car. Note that the seller has already replaced the original FC-coded wheels and steering wheel with SS items. I am still trying to buy the steering wheel, as it is a little better than my Camaro's original.
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The '69 Monojet carb was a little hesitant off the line, so I spent a couple of hours cleaning up the '70 carb for a swap. I noticed a slight improvement with that carb, so for now it stays.
The carb cleaned up nicely. If you look closely at the last photo you can see a Chevy bow tie logo above "Monojet". Inside the bow tie it says "Bay City", a reference to the plant where it was built...Bay City, MI.
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During the course of swapping the engine, starter, and carb, I pulled the valve cover on the 250 and discovered why it ran so poorly...the number 5 exhaust valve was broken (I'm guessing the little-old-lady who owned the Nova was probably drag racing another old lady with a slant-6 Valiant when the spring let go on a 5 grand power shift...it happens sometimes).
The valve and its seat are undamaged, so I'll replace the spring and keep the 250 for future re-installation. For now the 230 runs great and will remain between the front fenders until I can reinstall the "mountain motor" 250 (nothing like the bigger cube Chevy sixes, is there?).
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That’ll do it every time.
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292, 292, 292!
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LOL....love the humor!
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Thanks MO...a little humor goes a long way on this site. :D
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I took Charlotte up US 23 to OH 98 a couple of days ago (one of my favorite country drives). The hiway goes arrow straight for approx 20 miles to the small city of Bucyrus (home for many years to Bucyrus-Erie cranes).
I am a huge fan of old gas stations and Bucyrus has 3 that are mostly original, but the best station is 5 miles north of 23. It was built in 1929 by a farmer to take advantage of the traffic between Columbus and Lake Erie. It augmented his income for over 40 years, then closed around 1972 after he died. It is owned by his grandsons who have left the building standing as a memorial to their grandfather and his legacy. As the photos will attest, it is stunningly original...and an excellent spot for old car photos.
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Its original outhouse is leaning a bit and will collapse at some point down the road. It has awesome patina. Its bouquet contains just a hint of fresh cow pasture.
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The interior evokes memories of the Great Depression years. It should be preserved as a museum, but thoughtless vandals have broken out a window and stolen the front of one of its 1940's Gulf gas pumps...sadness.
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I did a tune-up on Charlotte this weekend and installed NOS Delco wires, AC R46N plugs, and cap, rotor, and points (all Delco...the best there is).
The 230 still had its original plugs, cap, rotor and wires...they lasted 40k miles! The wires were rock hard and dated "2Q-70". I may install them just for shows.
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OMG!
"A Side by Side $hitter"
Great Structures LOL Thanks for posting
Kinda a Weird Memory: Back in the Early Eighties Working (Navy-Federal Civilian) on the Maintenance period of the CV-64 "Connie" at the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. They installed Temp Wooden Bathrooms on the Flight Deck to keep us on the Ship working as opposed to the long long walking trip thru the Ship to the gangway and pier to the Fixed Brick and mortar Bathrooms, they installed temporary Side-By Side (No separation) Crappers with NO HEAT to minimize away from the Job Site time & motivate workers (ME) to 'Keep at it' and stimulate production.
Hey Sam!, "Pass the Tee-Pee"
Sorry, Had to (More Humor)
JIM
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Great that the grandsons are preserving their family history, but it would be nice to see them restore some of that. There is some cool stuff there. I'm on the fence about the his and her toilets though.
Sounds and looks like a nice drive for a classic car!
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Jim...that's a not-so-great memory :-[. I spent some time in Bremerton...great port-of-call with some excellent bars. I remember the Connie from being home-ported in San Diego in the early '80s on a Spruance destroyer...it was frequently sitting at North Island as we entered and exited San Diego Bay, and we often ran into it during Socal Ops. I bet those makeshift wooden heads were very popular with the yardbirds...what a great idea!
Thanks for sharing (I think)...
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MO...I can see a couple of women getting cozy and gossiping while doing their business, but a couple of guys...not so much. But I keep forgetting the wonderful times we're in, so maybe that's acceptable now (probably "warmly embraced" these days ::).
PS...I just noticed my wife sitting in the passenger seat in the photos at the station. She never took her eyes off her phone the whole 10 minutes we were there :-X.
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This is the latest op..."Operation Seatbelt Cleanup". The front belts were sticky and nasty from numerous soda accidents from the car's early days. I yanked 'em out and soaked them for 8 hours in a solution of 50% Resolve upholstery cleaner and 50% hot water...the water was completely black from all the crap that filtered out. I then spent an hour scrubbing them with Resolve and a soft bristle tooth brush. The pics show the belts after the first round of cleaning...I'll post more when the op is completed.
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MO...I can see a couple of women getting cozy and gossiping while doing their business, but a couple of guys...not so much. But I keep forgetting the wonderful times we're in, so maybe that's acceptable now (probably "warmly embraced" these days ::).
PS...I just noticed my wife sitting in the passenger seat in the photos at the station. She never took her eyes off her phone the whole 10 minutes we were there :-X.
Things were so much simpler when our cars were new....I miss that!
LOL, I saw that in the pics, but didn't know if it was your wife or not. I hope she enjoyed the ride though!