CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: dannystarr on August 10, 2021, 12:48:03 AM
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Looking at some cars. With the recent jump in pricing, I am wondering what this car is worth. Went online and saw a few, but would like the gang here to chime in.
1969 Pontiac Firebird Trans-Am Ram Air III 335HP 400 4-Speed 3:55 Posi
Car has been completely restored frame off on a rotisserie. Looks beautiful!! PHS Doc's match up. Now the bad news... Dated Correct '69 400 engine. Also what's the price hit for the non original engine?... Danny
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They made so few 69 Trans Ams that is a tuff question. The 70 ram air GTO,s have been all over the place price wise for a few years.
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The engine identification code for a 1969 Pontiac 400 manual transmission Ram Air III is "WQ," with a cylinder head casting code of "48."
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I would Venture to Guess that the "HIT" of the non original engine is less sever than a Camaro Z28, since the Pontiac are fully support by paper authentication.
69 T/A are strong in the market with the RA I/V outa sight.
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Danny - did he give you a price?
Probably a good question for the folks at PHS - I forget his name....
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15% has long been the standard deduct for NOM. Same add for a car with it's OM. There are probably exceptions to that rule for certain makes and models.
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Your dealing with a rare and very desirable car, a 1969 Trans-Am. As mentioned, the hit would be low. Yes, ANY car with its original engine IS more desirable, than one with out it. My 'guess' would be around 10%. Lets look at this in a different way: a 1969 ZL-1 Camaro, and a '71 Hemi 'Cuda convert missing their engines and transmissions (a rolling chassis), would sell for more than most Muscle Cars would complete and running. Rarity and desirability drive up prices.
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Owner has been restoring cars for about 40 years and does great work. Owner was offered a good chunk a while back and declined. The car isn't really even for sale at this point. I am just trying to push my way in... I am shocked that the price hit for a NOM is only 10 or 15%. I have always felt 20 to 25% for NOM, another 5 to 8K for incorrect transmission, and 3 to 5K for rear axle. That's how I have always based my first gen Z/28 pricing. If you have a 100K car with the wrong motor, or even an era correct 302 motor but NOM, I say 70 to 80K TOPS! I guess they only made 520 4-speeds. The car needs NOTHING. I have seen a detailed thick folder full of Pic's. Going to try to see it in person on my next trip to that state. Thanx for all help so far, keep it coming, I am learning. I see some for 80K and others for 120K and even others for 130K or more. Car has era correct Pontiac 400 so I guess that helps a little. Also just 3 options. I think PS, Radio and ? Can't remember. I am starting to think this may be out of my price range. ... Danny
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For a Chevrolet, the 'hit' for an incorrect engine is variable depending up on several factors, and probably the same/similar is true for other makes:
1) Is the engine a 'std' engine? or HP engine? Or SHP engine? Special High Performance engines when missing would carry a larger hit obviously. (The z28's 302 was a SHP engine)
2) How 'special' is the body/chassis itself (to distinguish it from 'base' models). I'm NOT talking emblems, paint, etc.
3) Are there other factors concerning the particular car (special options, etc?) that help motivate buyers?
That's my opinion.
PS. If I found an original '69 Firebird TA car, I wouldn't worry nearly as much about whether the engine was the 'born with' as much as I would with a 1st gen Z28. Perhaps I feel this way because of the rarity of the car itself and 'lack of knowledge' about any special engines Pontiac may have put into them?
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This is 'my' opinion on this: GM based Muscle Cars and their engines pretty much look the same as the standard engines. Hear me out before the hate mail comes rolling in. A small block Chevy, and a Pontiac engine look the same to 'most' people as their high performance counter parts. So, 'I' believe the hit wont be such a loss as compared to lets say a 426 Hemi or a Boss 429 engine/car. Those engines ARE vastly different to their big block cousins. What Im saying here is, a small block Chevy 283 all the way up to a 400 can be disguised as a potential DZ 302...in the 'looks' dept. People do this all the time with swapped out crate engines. Of course, anyone can see that the 'correct' parts, and casting numbers are not there. Get what Im driving at?
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Boss, Yes I see your "Driving at point". Put a 454 in a 67 camaro and slap a 396 foil sticker on it.
But even at 10,000 feet a Proper ZL1 loooks NOTHING like a L35,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Grins.
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Boss, Yes I see your "Driving at point". Put a 454 in a 67 camaro and slap a 396 foil sticker on it.
But even at 10,000 feet a Proper ZL1 loooks NOTHING like a L35,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Grins.
Exactly! I'm sure the Z/28 IS the most cloned car on the planet. Only exception to that would be an early GT-350 Shelby.
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Just my opinion. If I was serious about buying a 69 Trans Am, and was spending $ in the 6 figure range, I would not consider a NOM. If I am going to do it, I'm going to go all the way for originality even though it might cost more.
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Sure you can make an engine look like something it isn't (sort of like putting lipstick on a pig), but that's not going to change the value. A clone is a clone and should not add significant value to the overall price of the sale. That engine is worth the some of it's parts at best.
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Sure you can make an engine look like something it isn't (sort of like putting lipstick on a pig), but that's not going to change the value. A clone is a clone and should not add significant value to the overall price of the sale. That engine is worth the some of it's parts at best.
Absolutely correct. Just for poops and grins, what would a ZL-1 Camaro be worth missing its all alum 427, and a 350 small block is now in place? Still a ton of money. Why? Because that VIN/chassis IS rare and desirable to collectors.
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Why? Because that chassis IS rare and desirable to collectors.
Amended to read "Why? Because that VIN IS rare and desirable to collectors.
that is a wink and a nod to the Dark Green rebody,,,,,,,LoL.
Danny Does Pontiac Stamp the VIN on it's 400's in 1969(T/A) (I am not up on the other GM makes)?
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I do see some good points. If the car is super rare they tend to let the NOM slid some, or alot. As in the case of a '67 GT500. For some reason it's just not that important to those guys. I don't know if they stamped VIN's on the 400 Pontiac Block. Someone here should know. I agree about going all the way for originality and matching everything for future sales etc. All my cars are matching EVERYTHING! I pride myself on it. Problem is, ya can't beat on them. If I get this car, I can beat on it and if she blows... just get another 400 and keep moving. I always said I wouldn't buy a NOM car. But I might just try to make this happen. It's a long shot, but that's the fun of it. Thanx again to everyone. And again, keep it coming ;D ... Danny
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The corvette guys years ago said if the car has no docs assume it is fake. To me a "born with" drivetrain car is just a different a different car altogether. On this car I would think maybe 30% down if you knew an average price.
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I suspect that the same 'Georgia law' that required Chevrolet to stamp unique id numbers on even replacement engines and transmissions beginning in 1968 also required all other manufacturers to unique identify their engines and transmissions.
I did a quick google and found this link which indicates Pontiac had a similar scheme to Chevrolet...
https://foreverpontiac.com/forums/topic/12629-1968-pontiac-400-engine-block-vin-number-stamp-sizes/
Gary
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I have always loved these cars. However with no factory paperwork at all I wouldn't take a second look. BUT the PHS doc's are keeping me in the mix for now. I agree with the 30%. Maybe 25 to 30%. That means a car that would normally be $130K is now about $100 to $105K. That's my thinking exactly. But a $130,000 car with only a 15% drop still puts it at $110,500. Too high as far as I am concerned. I would switch over to a different car. The transmission matches the car. Again, the car is not for sale at this time, so there isn't a number of people trying to purchase it... JUST me. It's in a building with several other cars. The owner goes over and fires it up, heats it up and drives it all around the parking lot and puts it back in. So she is getting her exercise. Maybe 5 or 6 times a year, don't know for sure. ... Danny
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Yes Pontiac engine have VINS in 69.
The customer of mine on the L78 pace car recently bought a 69 TA which lost 7 points at the Pontiac Nationals I will see if he will chime in here.
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Yes Pontiac engine have VINS in 69.
The customer of mine on the L78 pace car recently bought a 69 TA which lost 7 points at the Pontiac Nationals I will see if he will chime in here.
James
7 points out of how many? For non "born with" engine?
Thank you, Joe
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His is matching numbers and if not mistaken Pontiac uses a 2500 point system.
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that must be a near perfect car to only lose 7 pts out of 2500~ ...
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Pretty good. Thanks for the clarification....Joe
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About a 20k hit on a well restored car.
Danny, that gets you into the 105k range which is reasonable especially if had a blue interior with console or fold down rear something.
My buddy had the chance to swap his 70 RA3 judge conv for a 69 RAIV TA in the late 80's... may have been a good trade, he still has the judge conv, with factory 4.33's.
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Sure you can make an engine look like something it isn't (sort of like putting lipstick on a pig), but that's not going to change the value. A clone is a clone and should not add significant value to the overall price of the sale. That engine is worth the some of it's parts at best.
Absolutely correct. Just for poops and grins, what would a ZL-1 Camaro be worth missing its all alum 427, and a 350 small block is now in place? Still a ton of money. Why? Because that VIN/chassis IS rare and desirable to collectors.
That is a tough one. Probably one of the hardest Chevrolet's to value. I'd guess that in today's market an all original, no question, restored car, could be 1m+. The same car with a 350 small block could be 750k+. A caveat to that would be a ZL1 of which the original engine was removed and may have been replaced with a 350 by a dealer, to make the car more salable. I'd guess that car would be somewhere in between.