CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: Edgemontvillage on March 18, 2021, 12:10:36 AM
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The positraction caution label was originally printed on non-adhesive backed, non-coated paper and applied to the underside of the trunk lid with glue. From what I've seen on Gen 1s where only glue residue remains where the label once was (often the case), the glue appears to have been applied in a cross or X pattern and rarely provided edge-to-edge coverage or full label adhesion. Its been suggested the glue was applied in multiple dabs however that's unlikely in high-volume production lines like Fisher's where economy of motion and effort is the standard. Based on the glue pattern in the photo below from my project, its also unlikely that a roller applicator was used but possibly a large sponge or mop-head style applicator or? The glue, I expect, would have been non water-based (due to recurring condensation on the underside of the trunk lid) and shows a semi-transparent off-white/yellow color (how much of this is age related?). I'd like to duplicate this glue and application technique for my project and would appreciate input on currently available glue products and applicators that would produce similar results to the original.
Positraction Caution Label
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50997014450_22bf540f21_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kGr2FQ)
Glue Residue from the Positraction Caution label on my 69 2B Norwood Z.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51030117511_79e4bde033_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kKmG5g)
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Kind of also looks like figure eight or clover patterns to me.
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That looks like 4 round dabs. I wonder if the same applicator and method was used for the tire pressure decal application?
Was the tire pressure decal also applied the same way?
Mike
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That looks like 4 round dabs. I wonder if the same applicator and method was used for the tire pressure decal application?
Was the tire pressure decal also applied the same way?
Mike
Mike, I assume you meant the Jacking Instructions? These didn't generally suffer the same fate and seem to fail less often (from what I've observed anyway). They were adhered better (differently?) than the Caution label. Members have posted on how the paper shrinks on these JIs leaving residue as they recede however they hung on!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51049238092_5c9a4304d2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kM3FXs)
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my car has the factory original under-trunklid jacking and positraction labels; I think these are 'protected' from sunlight/rain/etc by being where they are.
The Tire Pressure decal was affixed to the back of the drivers door for 69, and mine was 'missing' when I bought the car in 1976, so I can't comment on that (although I'd love to see some photos of factory original '69 tire pressure decals! (note my car is a mid Sept '69 production so it does still have the VIN decal on the rear edge of the drivers door, so I don't know why the tire pressure decal was missing, but the door decals were not as 'protected' as the decals under the trunk lid.
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my car has the factory original under-trunklid jacking and positraction labels; I think these are 'protected' from sunlight/rain/etc by being where they are.
The Tire Pressure decal was affixed to the back of the drivers door for 69, and mine was 'missing' when I bought the car in 1976, so I can't comment on that (although I'd love to see some photos of factory original '69 tire pressure decals! (note my car is a mid Sept '69 production so it does still have the VIN decal on the rear edge of the drivers door, so I don't know why the tire pressure decal was missing, but the door decals were not as 'protected' as the decals under the trunk lid.
Thanks for posting Gary, as the Caution label on your trunk lid is still affixed its not possible to see the glue pattern however does the residue extend beyond the edges of the label? In the photo it appears that it may?
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The corvette plant used a brush to apply the yellow glue out of a can for the door and hood seals.
Pretty sloppy in a lot of cases, IMHO the posi labels appear to exhibit the same "sloppiness".
Does anyone know the caliper (thickness) of the original label?
The ones I have had in my hand feel like Postal return card stock which is .007-.009- (copy bond is .003) - postal return cards are high bulk - but low weight (meaning they are thicker than their basis weight would have you believe)
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my car has the factory original under-trunklid jacking and positraction labels; I think these are 'protected' from sunlight/rain/etc by being where they are.
The Tire Pressure decal was affixed to the back of the drivers door for 69, and mine was 'missing' when I bought the car in 1976, so I can't comment on that (although I'd love to see some photos of factory original '69 tire pressure decals! (note my car is a mid Sept '69 production so it does still have the VIN decal on the rear edge of the drivers door, so I don't know why the tire pressure decal was missing, but the door decals were not as 'protected' as the decals under the trunk lid.
Thanks for posting Gary, as the Caution label on your trunk lid is still affixed its not possible to see the glue pattern however does the residue extend beyond the edges of the label? In the photo it appears that it may?
The glue does *appear* to extend beyond the label in some places. I'm under the impression that they were hastily slapped on over some glue, or perhaps glue applied to their backs and hastily slapped on the underside of the trunk with little worry about 100% adherence or appearance (after all, they are applied to the underside of the trunk lid!).
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IF not mistaken someone said the glue was neoprene glue - the same that was used for the foam triangles on the wiper cowl vent and what they brushed over the raw metal exposed when the VIN was stamped on the cowl top.
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I believe this has been discussed before, and I believe I might have posted a pic of an original sticker that I removed. If I can find it, I will provide the link.
I agree, hastily applied with no set pattern of glue application.
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So far I can’t find what I am looking for, but I found this.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=3563.0
And this
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1372.0
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Thanks Bryon, I wasn't able to locate those posts. Based on John H's (JohnZ) posts regarding both the Jacking Instructions and Caution label we know why they differed and how they were applied. To summarize:
Caution label: Glue (water-based, yellow, muscilage type) was applied with a small roller.
Jacking Instructions: Printed on adhesive backed paper.
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Thanks Bryon, I wasn't able to locate those posts. Based on John H's (JohnZ) posts regarding both the Jacking Instructions and Caution label we know why they differed and how they were applied. To summarize:
Caution label: Glue (water-based, yellow, muscilage type) was applied with a small roller.
Jacking Instructions: Printed on adhesive backed paper.
Lloyd.
My X77's label is missing, always has been since I bought the car in ;73, but the glue is still plainly visible on the deck lid, a solid bead much like what comes out of a latex caulking gun. applied in the form of a loop on the right underside of the lid. Really sloppy job, probably why the label came off. Definitely not roller applied -
Regards,
Steve
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My X77's label is missing, always has been since I bought the car in ;73, but the glue is still plainly visible on the deck lid, a solid bead much like what comes out of a latex caulking gun. applied in the form of a loop on the right underside of the lid. Really sloppy job, probably why the label came off. Definitely not roller applied -
Regards,
Steve
Steve, is your Camaro Van Nuys or Norwood built? Please post a photo of the Caution label adhesive residue from your trunk lid.
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Lloyd - thank you for finding the muscilage part that makes sense why they fell off so often.
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Lloyd - thank you for finding the muscilage part that makes sense why they fell off so often.
A related point is that the glue was applied to the trunk panel and not the Caution label.
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Lloyd - thank you for finding the muscilage part that makes sense why they fell off so often.
A related point is that the glue was applied to the trunk panel and not the Caution label.
I don't think that is correct. I would bet it was put on the label first.
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Sorry I don't have a better picture of the label but it looks like somebody got wild with the glue or they tried to move it before it dried. Survivor car from 05c Norwood
...Joe
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I don't think that is correct. I would bet it was put on the label first.
Fair enough, as we don't have information from John D on that process we don't know. I'm trying to reconcile how glue residue on the trunk panel can be outside the dimensions of the Caution label (my car for example). Was the glue applied to the panel first followed by the paper label or if glue was applied to the label first was the label slid or moved around / into position during installation?
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You took a picture of Benny's white car. It has very little glue on it & mostly in the middle. You still have that picture?...Joe
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I don't think that is correct. I would bet it was put on the label first.
Fair enough, as we don't have information from John D on that process we don't know. I'm trying to reconcile how glue residue on the trunk panel can be outside the dimensions of the Caution label (my car for example). Was the glue applied to the panel first followed by the paper label or if glue was applied to the label first was the label slid or moved around / into position during installation?
I would BET that part of the process varied depending on the day and who was doing it... :)
*Even if it was specified how to do it in their guideline manuals, that's something people just do the way they want to!
PS. I wonder where that Fisher archive got off to??? :)
Gary
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You took a picture of Benny's white car. It has very little glue on it & mostly in the middle. You still have that picture?...Joe
Joe, here is a photo of the Caution label on Benny P's 1969 L78 SS from MCACN 2019 Vintage Certification. Note the glue residue to the right of the label.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51052409648_f77fbd3a80_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kMjWKs)
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Sloppy. Remember, they were building cars...not show cars...Joe
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I don't think that is correct. I would bet it was put on the label first.
Fair enough, as we don't have information from John D on that process we don't know. I'm trying to reconcile how glue residue on the trunk panel can be outside the dimensions of the Caution label (my car for example). Was the glue applied to the panel first followed by the paper label or if glue was applied to the label first was the label slid or moved around / into position during installation?
I would BET that part of the process varied depending on the day and who was doing it... :)
*Even if it was specified how to do it in their guideline manuals, that's something people just do the way they want to!
PS. I wonder where that Fisher archive got off to??? :)
Gary
What Fisher archive?
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I don't think that is correct. I would bet it was put on the label first.
Fair enough, as we don't have information from John D on that process we don't know. I'm trying to reconcile how glue residue on the trunk panel can be outside the dimensions of the Caution label (my car for example). Was the glue applied to the panel first followed by the paper label or if glue was applied to the label first was the label slid or moved around / into position during installation?
I would BET that part of the process varied depending on the day and who was doing it... :)
*Even if it was specified how to do it in their guideline manuals, that's something people just do the way they want to!
PS. I wonder where that Fisher archive got off to??? :)
Gary
What Fisher archive?
You know Fisher had 'assembly manuals' for the bodies, and they must have archived them somewhere (for at least a short time).. :) So WHAT happened to them. If we had them, it would answer most of the questions we have.. and Yes, I KNOW we've never had them, not even for the Trivie years either... and 95% of the restoration questions we have are related to HOW Fisher did their part.. ;)
Gary
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My X77's label is missing, always has been since I bought the car in ;73, but the glue is still plainly visible on the deck lid, a solid bead much like what comes out of a latex caulking gun. applied in the form of a loop on the right underside of the lid. Really sloppy job, probably why the label came off. Definitely not roller applied -
Regards,
Steve
Steve, is your Camaro Van Nuys or Norwood built? Please post a photo of the Caution label adhesive residue from your trunk lid.
Lloyd,
Norwood 01C. I'll try to get to it tomorrow, I owe Chick a look at my '68 spoiler studs as well. I've been preoccupied trying to fit 4 cars into a 3 car garage, stuff piled all over everything with at least a partially flat surface. I'll get there -
Regards,
Steve
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Does anyone have a picture of the jacking instructions for the N66 SS rim option?
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Lloyd,
Worse than I remembered. Tough to see the spot where I tried to remove the bead with a razor blade - I gave up pretty quickly.
That is original Le Mans blue paint, like this when I bought it in '73. never touched the underside.
Regards,
Steve
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Does anyone have a picture of the jacking instructions for the N66 SS rim option?
I'll second the request. My L78 has the N66 rims, dated right for the car, but the trunk lid color was changed from Cortez to Hugger Orange many years ago - no tag to go by -
Regards,
Steve
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Lloyd,
Worse than I remembered. Tough to see the spot where I tried to remove the bead with a razor blade - I gave up pretty quickly.
That is original Le Mans blue paint, like this when I bought it in '73. never touched the underside.
Regards,
Steve
Thanks for posting Steve.
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You know Fisher had 'assembly manuals' for the bodies, and they must have archived them somewhere (for at least a short time).. :) So WHAT happened to them. If we had them, it would answer most of the questions we have.. and Yes, I KNOW we've never had them, not even for the Trivie years either... and 95% of the restoration questions we have are related to HOW Fisher did their part.. ;)
Fisher OD (Operation Description) manuals.
Note that the operation in question was a Chevy process.
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Went back through some old emails and found this from John Z in regards to the posi label. We were also talking about window sticker adhesive.
"The window sticker used a simple water-soluble adhesive, applied to the printed side by drawing it across a roller mounted across a tray with the adhesive in it. The Posi label used a different water-based adhesive, applied with a brush."
I can not find it right now, but I took a photo of a posi sticker from an original deck lid I have. It showed brush marks. If I can find the photo or the label itself, I will post a pic. It is probably stuck in the back of one of the dozens of car related books I have.
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Found it! Not in the best shape. We discussed this internally in July 2015.
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Note the brush strokes in the glue.
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Note the brush strokes in the glue.
Glue was definitely brushed on rather than rolled consistent with John D's description. Thanks for posting Bryon.
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I located a photo I took of the underside of the trunk lid of my 2B Norwood 69 Z during disassembly that shows glue residue on the trunk lid where the Posi decal once was. Although there are examples indicating that the glue was brushed on the lid then the Posi decal was applied, in this case from the edge witness marks it appears the glue was first applied to the decal then the decal affixed to the lid. As with Bryon's Posi decal above, glue was applied in an "X" pattern.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51160867683_b9dc3d451e_c.jpg)
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I just found this post and I had the same question regarding the posi label on the trunk lid I have a 69Z Norwood survivor last week of September and the label was missing from my car when I purchased it I was able to find a original label and I’ll post some pictures of the new label the glue marks I was also wonderingHow they were applied it looks like they were done pretty fast on the Assembly line. And what glue should I use
Thanks Morgan
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More pictures
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Original label
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I have a 69 Z28 with the space saver tire with inflator. There is a trunk lid decal for this option.
D
Can any one help with the location of the three decals (Jacking, Posi and space saver tire.
Thanks much.
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1969 Z28 never came with a space saver, only full size spare.
Doc.