CRG Discussion Forum

Model Specific Discussions => Trans-Am Camaros => Topic started by: KurtS on December 18, 2020, 08:29:56 PM

Title: Spoiler availability
Post by: KurtS on December 18, 2020, 08:29:56 PM
When was the Camaro spoiler available as a GM service part? Was it the same part # as the production 68 spoiler?
Was it legal to run all of the 67 season?

Maybe this has been addressed and I just didn't see it....

Thanks!
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on December 19, 2020, 10:32:21 PM
The 'legal' items would be in the FIA papers. I believe Jon had posted them.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: KurtS on December 21, 2020, 05:49:42 AM
Thanks!
The spoiler was 3916633 (same # as 67-68 production spoiler) and the FIA papers (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7896.0) list it as optional. I don't see a date on the papers, but I assume it was about Dec66 / Jan 67.
When were the first spoilers available to racers? Looks like some cars didn't have them for the first TA race.

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/1449-14.jpg)
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on December 21, 2020, 03:20:22 PM
The FIA form was valid as of January 1st, 1967.  Bob Tucker built the Joie Chitwood Camaro which ran at Daytona in February of that year.  He told me he was given a blueprint for the rear spoiler and had to build his own from that.  I don't have info on when they first became available as a service part, however Don Yenko contracted with Perfect Plastics Industries of Oakmont, PA in mid-June 1967 to have them make 25 rear spoilers for him.  This is something he wouldn't have bothered with if they were available via the service department.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on December 21, 2020, 10:07:21 PM
Very surprising since the prototype Z had one. You'd think there would have been some production timeframe for them between Oct 66 and Jan 67 for upcoming Z-28 production and racing. Maybe the intent all along was to let racers build their own from homologation blueprints, until they saw the desire/popularity of them for street use and then decided to produce them.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on December 23, 2020, 05:36:52 AM
Boys,
There is an interesting topic over at the Boss 302 site concerning the spoiler/wing 'effectiveness' on downforce. Not so much about the 'availability' of it. None the less, an engineer who worked on the NASCAR Mopar wing cars had started the debate. Reason I am writing this, I believe it is a nice read and quite informative. Check it out:
http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=85652.0
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: KurtS on December 23, 2020, 07:06:51 PM
Interesting because I see some cars in the first TA race had spoilers. And the Penske cars soon had them, IIRC.
Do we know if Yenko's spoilers were the same height?
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: cook_dw on December 23, 2020, 08:21:11 PM
I thought the Yenko spoilers were molded into the deck lid?  Or was that for '68?
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on December 24, 2020, 07:43:47 PM
Penske's car got a spoiler for the first race and so did Craig Fisher's car and Joie Chitwood's.  The Penske car had three bolts attaching the spoiler and you could see them externally from the top.  The Johnny Moore gold Z did not get it until the second race at Sebring.  As I said, I know the Chitwood car had a handmade spoiler done from a blueprint supplied by Chevrolet.  I don't know what other's did but not every car that raced in Trans-Am in '67 had a spoiler.  It was probably about half of them that did.  I have not studied the Yenko spoilers enough but I believe the first ones were stock height and bolted to a stock deck lid.  I have seen a molded in rear spoiler on a white '68 Yenko but don't know if that was a one-off or if others were also done like that.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on December 24, 2020, 07:56:10 PM
I posted this informative spoiler technical article 8 years ago.  It doesn't cover anything to do with spoiler availability in '67 though.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10017.msg73888#msg73888
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: KurtS on December 25, 2020, 05:55:29 AM
Thanks for the info. I thought I had seen pictures of a Penske car in the first race without spoilers, but looks like I was mistaken.
Notable that the spoilers are called out in the race coverage - "Craig Fisher speeds his spoilered Camaro...." "Donahue and his spoiler equipped car..."
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on December 25, 2020, 08:40:16 PM
Here are a couple of photos courtesy of Bob Tucker.  The first one shows the car being prepped and the rear spoiler in the midst of fabrication.  The second shows the finished car being picked up by Joie Chitwood Jr just prior to the Daytona Trans-Am with the fabricated rear spoiler installed.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on December 28, 2020, 08:56:49 PM
I posted this informative spoiler technical article 8 years ago.  It doesn't cover anything to do with spoiler availability in '67 though.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10017.msg73888#msg73888

Thanks for posting that again Jon. It's a really good article. I remember reading a book years ago on automotive aerodynamics. It touched on the value of using spoilers on street cars. The results were similar; negligible at legal speed limits. 
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on December 28, 2020, 09:17:26 PM
I bought a 67 Camaro in the mid 70's that had a fiberglass decklid with an integral spoiler. It was not shaped like the factory spoilers. It was shorter in height and only the length of the decklid. I couldn't find anything on it to determine who manufactured it. 
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: GMAD_Van Nuys on January 01, 2021, 01:42:06 AM
According to this article in Hot Rod, the rear spoiler was available in 1967, but was not part of the Z28 package:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0706phr-1967-chevy-camaro-z28-history/
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on January 02, 2021, 01:50:10 AM
According to this article in Hot Rod, the rear spoiler was available in 1967, but was not part of the Z28 package:

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0706phr-1967-chevy-camaro-z28-history/

Factual information regarding the rear spoiler in 1967 is contained above in this CRG thread.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on January 02, 2021, 02:15:17 AM
I bought a 67 Camaro in the mid 70's that had a fiberglass decklid with an integral spoiler. It was not shaped like the factory spoilers. It was shorter in height and only the length of the decklid. I couldn't find anything on it to determine who manufactured it. 

Fred, that sounds like a trunk lid from AMT Speed and Custom Division.  They built complete cars and also sold individual pieces.  The trunk lid replaced the stock steel outer skin from the factory decklid and bonded a fiberglass skin over the stock steel under-structure.  With age, the fiberglass would delaminate from the steel due to rust coming from inside.  This is what I heard anyway.  There was one of these cars a couple of blocks down from my high school in the mid-70s.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on January 02, 2021, 02:44:27 AM
Boys,
Correct me if I am wrong, didn't AMT make model kits like Revell?
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: 68camaroz28 on January 02, 2021, 03:10:07 AM
What a great picture of Joey Chitwood’s white 67.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: PURESS on January 02, 2021, 02:56:39 PM
https://modelcars.com/collections/amt-view-all
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: mls68z28 on January 02, 2021, 06:49:00 PM
Is Chitwoods '67 Z28 still around?
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on January 03, 2021, 10:55:38 PM
Chitwood ordered a Z28 and it did not arrive in time to prepare to go to Daytona in early February so they took an SS350 off the lot and built that car instead.  That car has not been located and neither has the Z that was ordered.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: 169INDY on January 03, 2021, 11:52:23 PM
Chitwood ordered a Z28 and it did not arrive in time to prepare to go to Daytona in early February so they took an SS350 off the lot and built that car instead.  That car has not been located and neither has the Z that was ordered.

In general terms Did this happen a lot 67/68/69 using a Non Z28 to Build a T/A Car out of timing (Availability)  or funding (Economics) necessity?

Follow up, I thought the SCAA application Documents additionally would-did even Call for acceptance of other models for qualified use (Homologation)

Jim
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on January 04, 2021, 01:47:54 AM
Don Yenko raced a 6-cylinder car he got at a dealer auction and painted it to look like a Z.  Dana prepped two SS350 cars when the two Zs they wanted didn't show up in time to prepare for Sebring.  Bobby Brown started prepping a '67 327 RS in November-December '66 before the Zs were on sale.  Who know what Smokey Yunick started with?  There is no record of what he got.  Yes, there are many examples of real Zs that raced and also other "non Z28s" as well.  The Camaro itself was homologated with the SCCA and if you built the car with a legal 5-liter engine and generally met weight and safety requirements you could run it in Trans-Am.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on January 04, 2021, 06:47:14 PM
Don Yenko raced a 6-cylinder car he got at a dealer auction and painted it to look like a Z.  Dana prepped two SS350 cars when the two Zs they wanted didn't show up in time to prepare for Sebring.  Bobby Brown started prepping a '67 327 RS in November-December '66 before the Zs were on sale.  Who know what Smokey Yunick started with?  There is no record of what he got.  Yes, there are many examples of real Zs that raced and also other "non Z28s" as well.  The Camaro itself was homologated with the SCCA and if you built the car with a legal 5-liter engine and generally met weight and safety requirements you could run it in Trans-Am.




Jon is correct. All of the Boss 302 T/A cars were in fact not Boss 302s (VIN wise). Im not sure on the Mopar entries IF in fact they were original 340-6 cars either.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 05, 2021, 12:36:42 AM
"Fred, that sounds like a trunk lid from AMT Speed and Custom Division.  They built complete cars and also sold individual pieces.  The trunk lid replaced the stock steel outer skin from the factory decklid and bonded a fiberglass skin over the stock steel under-structure.  With age, the fiberglass would delaminate from the steel due to rust coming from inside.  This is what I heard anyway.  There was one of these cars a couple of blocks down from my high school in the mid-70s".

Jon, That is exactly what it looked like. I don't remember the understructure being metal, but I'm sure it must have been. Interestingly, it also had two snorkels on the hood like those pictured, but I remember them being smaller. One was forward of the other, like the silver car in the center of that photo. No flares or side scoops though.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on January 05, 2021, 02:25:14 AM
Very cool, Fred.  Got any pics of the car you can share?
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: 67CruiseMaster on January 05, 2021, 05:19:38 PM
Questions.

Wondering if there any pictures of the underside of the hood with those scoops anywhere?
Curious to know also if the spoiler was also bolted or just fiber glassed in place?
Gas cap in the pictures above shown have hinge on either side too. Was that just a picture edit error? Or were they installed either way?

Scot
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: GMAD_Van Nuys on January 05, 2021, 05:43:29 PM
I met Hank Haga when I worked at GMAD Van Nuys and knew that his studio was responsible for the design of the 1967 Camaro.  Too bad I didn't ask him about the rear spoiler!

https://www.rkmotors.com/blog/Panther-Design-Evolution
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on January 05, 2021, 06:16:42 PM
Questions.

Wondering if there any pictures of the underside of the hood with those scoops anywhere?
Curious to know also if the spoiler was also bolted or just fiber glassed in place?
Gas cap in the pictures above shown have hinge on either side too. Was that just a picture edit error? Or were they installed either way?

Scot




Concerning the gas cap, the hinge is on one side and the release is on the other. I believe the difference you may be seeing is on one photo its flipped or reversed. You can install it either way, just flip it around...hinge on the left or right. BTW, the gas cap does appear to be a replica from a Cobra.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 05, 2021, 07:07:06 PM
Very cool, Fred.  Got any pics of the car you can share?

Wish I had pictures of that car Jon; and a few others I had back then. But in those days, pictures were just not something I thought of taking. I doubt I even had a camera then. I do see the importance now though!
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 05, 2021, 08:07:45 PM
Questions.

Wondering if there any pictures of the underside of the hood with those scoops anywhere?
Curious to know also if the spoiler was also bolted or just fiber glassed in place?
Gas cap in the pictures above shown have hinge on either side too. Was that just a picture edit error? Or were they installed either way?

Scot

Scot, there were openings cut in the hood on my car for them. They were positioned so that the structural bracing removal was minimal. Then they were riveted in place and bondo'd over. Whoever installed them did a nice clean job. I'm sure the decklid with the integral spoiler was installed similarly after removing the metal skin as Jon mentioned. Even using fiberglass you'd end up with some type of plastic filler to finish it off and smooth it out.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: 67CruiseMaster on January 05, 2021, 09:18:18 PM
MO you have pictures?
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 07, 2021, 07:50:25 PM
No I'm sorry to say; I really wish I did though. Didn't seem necessary at the time. I don't think I had a camera then, and I still don't have one since that is apparently what cell phones are for.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: JoeC on January 08, 2021, 12:02:40 PM
here is an 1967 ad for a Yenko Stomer with spoiler
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on January 08, 2021, 05:13:50 PM
Boys,
Im gonna through a monkey wrench in the mix here: was the 1967 Camaro the first production car to offer a rear spoiler? OR, as some would say the '66/'67 Charger was with its very rare dealer available spoiler for NASCAR? Your thoughts...
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 09, 2021, 03:37:17 AM
here is an 1967 ad for a Yenko Stomer with spoiler

That looks a lot like the tall spoiler that Penske used.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 09, 2021, 04:00:15 AM
Boys,
Im gonna through a monkey wrench in the mix here: was the 1967 Camaro the first production car to offer a rear spoiler? OR, as some would say the '66/'67 Charger was with its very rare dealer available spoiler for NASCAR? Your thoughts...

I'm not sure there is a fair comparison there. Both were service parts. Guess you'd need to know the release dates to dealers from both manufacturers. I had a 66 Hemi Charger that I bought from the original owner with one that I know was installed much later in life. Multiple car lines offered them in 1968, so who was first to market?
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: JoeC on January 09, 2021, 02:47:53 PM
here are pictures of the 67 Z/28 prototype/press car. It had a spoiler with a more flat looking back then the production spoiler
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on January 09, 2021, 04:50:55 PM
here are pictures of the 67 Z/28 prototype/press car. It had a spoiler with a more flat looking back then the production spoiler




I like it! Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on January 09, 2021, 05:09:14 PM
Boys,
Im gonna through a monkey wrench in the mix here: was the 1967 Camaro the first production car to offer a rear spoiler? OR, as some would say the '66/'67 Charger was with its very rare dealer available spoiler for NASCAR? Your thoughts...

The Dodge Charger was the first production car to offer a rear spoiler in my opinion, even though the spoiler was tiny and not all that visible.  I believe the '67 Shelby Mustang was second and Camaro was third.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: SMKZ28 on January 09, 2021, 06:00:39 PM
Here are two more pictures showing the rear spoiler on the prototype/press Z28.  They also came from gettyimages.com
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: JoeC on January 10, 2021, 01:18:33 PM
an early use of the rear spoiler was the 1966 Yenko Stinger fiberglass rear deck lid

not a normal production car but is recognized by FIA and SCCA as a two seat sports car manufactured by Yenko Sports Car Inc .  Jerry Thompson was the 1967 SCCA D/P Champion in a Stinger
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: Jon Mello on January 10, 2021, 02:46:37 PM
Thanks, Joe.  That was an oversight on my part but yes that was a limited production car.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on January 10, 2021, 05:21:33 PM
Boys,
The Shelby Daytona Coupe used one in 1964. However, I believe we are 'stretching' it here. The Cobra and Corvair Stinger were race cars, not production cars.
Here is a picture for a reference.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 11, 2021, 02:12:49 AM
The Shelby Daytona Coupe used one in 1964. However, I believe we are 'stretching' it here. The Cobra and Corvair Stinger were race cars, not production cars.
Here is a picture for a reference.

I agree, racecars should not be considered in this dialogue.
Good call on the 67 Shelby's Jon; I had forgotten about them.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 11, 2021, 02:21:03 AM
here is an 1967 ad for a Yenko Stomer with spoiler

Joe, That's a good comparison for height. The Stinger looks to have a curve that you can see in the stripe as compared to the flat look on the press car.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: 369 on January 12, 2021, 04:49:44 PM
These came from the other thread.....so how did the “tall” spoiler come to be? Just a custom piece to do a job or was it something being manufactured at the time?
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: crossboss on January 12, 2021, 06:56:03 PM
The top photo is very interesting. It appears to be what some would call a 'duck tail spoiler'. Its very effective on producing down force. It appears to have a similar design as the '67 Shelby Mustangs. The other photo is of course very close to the production spoilers. Wonder how the SCCA/FIA ruled on the duck tail's legality? Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 13, 2021, 01:48:41 AM
Jon, is it known which shape was used for the Chevrolet blueprint? I would presume the shorter style.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: KurtS on January 13, 2021, 06:16:08 AM
The blueprint from GM would be the same as the production part, same part #. Surprisingly, the number never changed through all of 67 and 68.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: JoeC on January 13, 2021, 11:36:48 AM
Yenko used two local fiberglass companies to make parts for him. One company's main business was fiberglass bath tubs and shower stalls.

Yenko had fiberglass hoods, deck lids, seats, spoilers and other parts made to his design

Yenko, and probably others back in the day, would use their racing buddies to get parts and services as many racers were business owners and raced more as a hobby.

I have a set of prototype fiberglass side pipe covers Yenko had made for 67-69 Camaros. They are too thin and have cracking so didn't go into production.  here is the receipt
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 13, 2021, 10:14:32 PM
Cool piece Joe!
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 13, 2021, 10:16:17 PM
The blueprint from GM would be the same as the production part, same part #. Surprisingly, the number never changed through all of 67 and 68.

Thanks for confirming Kurt.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: cruiserofland on January 14, 2021, 07:24:22 PM
Interesting to see the Car Life spoiler results, suggesting front but no rear spoiler was best overall for a road car. Donohue says in The Unfair Advantage that when they finally brought their '67 to Milford, the GM numbers showed their spoilered car at 100 mph to generate 50 lbs lift front and 100 lbs downforce rear. Rear matches the Car Life '69 street car downforce but front is vastly better on the race car, which I would bet is all to do with the low ride height of the race car. Fun stuff!
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: cruiserofland on January 14, 2021, 11:12:46 PM
I should say, lower ride height plus stiffer springs on the race car to keep ride height more constant through the aero load. And while this is ultimately a trans-am series development, I hadn't put together until now how a drag-race suspension config not only helps with weight transfer to the rear but also reduces front splitter performance as the front lifts which would actually increase straight-line stability...
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: KurtS on January 26, 2021, 06:22:17 PM
Good point on the difference in spoiler performance between production cars and race cars.
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: MO on January 26, 2021, 10:34:28 PM
I was going through the AIM for something else and looked in UPC Z28 as well. There are a couple things that strike me as interesting about this drawing and it's relationship to this thread:

1. The first revision is dated 12/5/66 and notes RPO D80. Given that it already had an RPO assigned, could that mean that spoilers were already available?
    Or is it an indication that it is intended to be available? I can't imagine it being available at that time or they wouldn't have been handing out blueprints
    on how to build them. Is there an early parts book or option list/catalog that might have anything on it and a date to help narrow it down?

2. The second revision is dated 2/16/66 (which I'm sure is a typo, but not sure if it should be 12/16/66 or 2/16/67). It indicates how to paint the stripe on
    the spoiler. It's interesting to note that the stripe was painted only to the bottom edge of the spoiler. It doesn't state this, but it could also be indicating no
    paint on the lip of the trunk lid, as spoilers were painted when factory available. 
Title: Re: Spoiler availability
Post by: KurtS on January 29, 2021, 05:38:51 AM
1. The first revision is dated 12/5/66 and notes RPO D80. Given that it already had an RPO assigned, could that mean that spoilers were already available?
No, that indicates the engineering drawings and paperwork were done.