CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: c20rj on February 03, 2020, 08:59:15 PM
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Hello all, I have a 1967 "k" code L78 car. Motor is long gone. Finding a MQ block is like finding a unicorn, yet still would not be correct. I have been able to find a few CE coded blocks cast in 1969 or 1970. Being that the cars came with a 5/50 powertrain warranty, these dates would be correct right? Does the warranty L78 have specific number blocks/heads etc that I would need to look for? And did the warranty motors get vin stamped at the dealer? Thanks for your input!
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I worked at a Buick dealer. We never stamped a partial vin on a replacement engine.
Yes, anything withing the 5 years would be technically correct.
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The '68 Z/28 I had from '71 to '73 had a CE block that was dated in the middle of '69. It just meant that the block was replaced under warranty in '69. The block had no VIN stamped on it and was a '69 numbered block.
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Not sure exactly when GM began offering the 5/50 warranty but a CE block dated within a few years of your car's 'sold' date should be fine. They were only stamped with the CE code, no partial VINs were added.
I've been searching for quite a few years (with no success) for any dealer-issued paperwork that shows they recorded the CE number against the vehicle it was installed in.
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Ok, so a CE block Is Chevrolet/Engine/year digit/sequence number. So in my case I would be looking for casting numbers and dates for a L78 spec engine for the year it was made. I.E 69/70 etc Right? I know I will never have the born with engine. This would be the next closest way to go, as I certainly am not going to make a fake, it is what it is. So I could look up casting numbers for blocks, heads, cranks, etc for a L78 to match up to the year of CE manufacture and be close to original as I could get. Does anyone know how complete a CE engine would be? I.E short block/long block or complete engine? Being I have nothing date correct on the 396 in the car currently I wonder how far I should go as far as sourcing date and part number correct carb, distributor etc. If the CE engines were complete from pan to carb it would certainly be easier sourcing date/number correct stuff for 68/69/70 than 1967. Opinions?
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Realize a CE block could be from before the car was made. CE blocks were not on a FIFO system....
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Good point Kurt. I have seen that with replacement rear axle housings.
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I haven’t had time yet to look through my blocks for you. Block could be as late as early 72. Heads - probably doesn’t matter as long as they are closed chamber rectangle port.
Sold a 4 bolt main CE late 69 402 block a few years ago.
I have a June of 67 L78 block - but from a Chevelle, 1 of 612 produced. That isn’t for sale.
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Realize a CE block could be from before the car was made. CE blocks were not on a FIFO system....
There was a long thread discussing this, after John said CE assemblies weren't held in inventory. One of the main reasons I'm so interested to hunt down any GM/dealer docs recording a CE unit and the car it was installed in.
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I think only the block would be replaced. Not the heads, intake, carb, etc. So you would need to find the right dated components. 3910 carbs are hard to find too
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I think only the block would be replaced. Not the heads, intake, carb, etc. So you would need to find the right dated components. 3910 carbs are hard to find too
Depends on what was damaged. I know of a Z28 that had the short block and one head replaced under warranty.
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I know of a Z28 that had the short block and one head replaced under warranty.
JohnZ's former car?
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What JohnZ had to say on 6 Dec 2014 in response to a question about CE engines from ZLP is included below, and the posting is here (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12873.msg109044#msg109044)
John Z wrote:
1. I had a copy of the service order when my Z engine was replaced with a "CE" short block (plus one new 186 cylinder head) in June, 1970, but it's filed away.
2. I doubt if any dealers made any effort to stamp anything on the pad - they made their money by getting the job done below flat rate and getting the car out the door; stamping "numbers" in those days would have seemed pointless.
3. "CE" short blocks were built based on demand, normally on weekend overtime; without intake and exhaust manifolds and cylinder heads, they had to be manhandled off the end of the engine plant assembly line with hoists and forklifts and placed on wooden pallets which later became shipping crates.
"CE" engines weren't "stocked" at regional parts depots - dealer order for an engine went to GMSPO (GM Service Parts Operations), who sent it to Flint V-8 (or Tonawanda, depending on the engine), and the engine plant shipped the engine direct to the dealership. "CE" engines were only supplied as short blocks or "fitted blocks" - not as "long blocks".
Based on this information, GM installed CE engines should always be dated AFTER the car they went into under warranty.
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Based on the number of crated/unused "CE" blocks that have been found in dealerships over the years, I would think the Service guys had some sort of informal system to maintain a buffer of common "CE" replacement blocks so they could reasonably predict the need for weekend overtime at the engine plants, but the buffer stock wouldn't have been at the engine plants - they didn't have the floorspace to dedicate hunks of it for potential Service usage. Somewhere, someone handled that, or the delays at the dealer level would have been untenable.
However, since most of the "CE's" were 4"-bore blocks with only two kinds of pistons and two kinds of camshafts, it wouldn't take a lot of part numbers to cover 95% of the anticipated demand, since most of the as-installed differences were from external bolt-on parts from the failed engine, which went right back on the "CE" block. :)
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Welcome back, John!
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Welcome back, John!
X2, good to hear from you John, and a (late) Happy New Year!
Did you by chance retain any copies of the dealer documents you mentioned having for the CE block in your former car?
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Thanks for clarifying that John. Even not that many years ago I know of some warranty W motor 409 short blocks that were found in storage at old dealerships.
At a large auction - attended by people from all over the world - several years ago near where I grew up, there were all kinds of service parts that were sold, including such things as NOS crankshafts, camshafts, heads, etc.
Dealers talked to each other for such things as trading cars - and parts - in the 60s and 70s. So it wouldn’t be a stretch to think that a few short blocks were obtained that way.
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Just for info my 12A L78 has a CE block dated F119 and both heads are B 19 9 . No I do not have any docs. Owner history shows the engine was in the car back to 1977. The original 400 turbo is still in the car.
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There are a number of 67 L78 engines not in their correct cars.
I inspected a 67 L78 pacer a few months ago which had another car's engine T0413MQ N212xxx last 3 digits had too much paint to make out.
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You might want to consider a 70 or later 4.25 bore CE block and build a 427 or 454. Or just take a good 4 bolt main 454 truck block, zero deck it, blueprint and balance everything. You could even do a stroker 496.
I am running a 4 bolt main 454 block, bored 0.060 over - old school 468 cubic inches. My original 396 block probably won’t ever show up. Such is life.