CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: mytwoblues on October 06, 2019, 02:39:59 PM

Title: How original can one get?
Post by: mytwoblues on October 06, 2019, 02:39:59 PM
Y'all don't chastise me here (yes, I'm from Texas).  I'm still doing research to hopefully purchase a 69 SS Camaro.  It would be my dream car, to own until I can no longer drive it.  My question is:  how original should I be on the lookout for?  I see lots of caveat emptors, lots of questions regarding restamps, numbers not matching, etc.  But how many Camaros out there do you think would really be all original?  I don't know if I should be worried about finding all correct stamping, data plate info.  I'm still new to searching for my perfect car.  I appreciate help!
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: mytwoblues on October 06, 2019, 02:58:05 PM
Another thought:  in my search for my dream car, I've tried to run several VIN's online to get more info.  But since there are only 13 numbers, vs now 17, many cars I come across don't have any database info.  Is this typical?  Or is this a definite red flag? 
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: x66 714 on October 06, 2019, 02:59:52 PM
A car is only original once. After that it can be restored original or correct. There are also those that choose to do forgery. The question for you is what do you want? What are you willing to accept? These are questions only you will have the answer to. Maybe you want a clean driver you can have fun with & not concern yourself with numbers that maybe you could take to a show & be proud of it?....Joe
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: mytwoblues on October 06, 2019, 05:07:05 PM
That's great advice, Joe. Thank you.  No, I'm not looking to show it.  I want to drive it as much as possible and look and feel amazing in it 😁  I want a car that looks amazing, runs great, and is as true to a 69 Camaro without being too mod. I am not in a place to do any fixing up myself. This would be my "perfect" car to keep as long as I can afford to.
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: 67conv6cyl on October 06, 2019, 05:49:04 PM
The biggest problem is that people fake trim tags, date stamps and documentation to get more money for a car....just know what you are buying and paying for! Stay away from any car that has questionable trim tags!
or stamping Because the only reason to fake or change these without letting buyers know is to make car worth more!
You will always end up overpaying for a fake car if itís passed off for something itís not. Even if you are just changing the paint color on a trim tag you have turned the car into something that it was not originally and once car is know to have a fake trim tag the value of the car goes way down.
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: ko-lek-tor on October 07, 2019, 12:02:27 PM
My advice is either to hire a guy (many on here) that really know their Camaro facts and know the carís quality of body work etc... when they view a car, and have them find you the right candidate. Or, you can find cars and have someone, again, on this site either go look at the car or you post pictures and have it evaluated. If you are not an ďexpertĒ on these cars and want a great car to drive, it would be money well spent, imo, to have others, who know these cars, evaluate your find BEFORE purchase. Send me a PM and we can get some specific information of what you want and how much you can pay and the hunt will be on.
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: BULLITT65 on October 07, 2019, 07:29:00 PM
I totally agree with Bentley. I have helped a couple of people find an original 1st Gen. It is worth the small fee guys would charge to get you the real deal. You definitely want to educate yourself, but at a minimum I would post pics of any car you are interested on the CRG, for further evaluation.
Your second question, how many original cars are out there: IMO not that many, and less all the time. It all depends on how original you want the car, and how much you want to pay for that originality. Less and less original Camaros, more and more SS, Z/28, Pace cars. Hardly see a nice original plain Jane cars these days. There are still original owner cars out there, that have just been maintained over the years, but it can take a while to find and get these cars. IMO the key is having patience and really vet out any potential cars you are interested in, and do not get "the fever" for any 1 car, where you may overlook red or yellow flags. They made a lot of 69 Camaros, do your homework, and find someone who is well versed on 69 Camaro SS, and I think it will turn out ok.
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: Kelley W King on October 07, 2019, 08:27:52 PM
I think another way to say things is try to get what you pay for. Don,t pay SS price for a clone or made up car.
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: BULLITT65 on October 07, 2019, 08:34:53 PM
Well I would totally agree with that, but it takes one of us or sometimes more than 1 of us to be able to authenticate or call it a clone. Even with this great site, much of the information is not seen or read by potential buyers. Shoot even I have trouble finding information on the site sometimes, until I am sent a
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: Stingr69 on October 08, 2019, 01:38:54 PM
If you never sell it, the originality is less of an issue.  Resale is when it matters to an owner. 

As I see it - You could either buy an original car, or overpay for a fake, or you can save money and buy the best car for your needs.  If the car is less original you can get more car for your money and you are free to make changes without worrying about destroying the "originality value".   You pays your money, you takes your pick.

Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: mytwoblues on October 19, 2019, 09:43:20 PM
I'm loving all this help!  I'm very much enjoying learning more about Camaro's.  We went to Streetside Classics today in Ft. Worth to look at a few.  Nothing special, but I love that I can now check VIN's and cowl tags against one another and know more about them. 
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: Charley on October 25, 2019, 10:07:27 PM
My personal opinion that many probably won't like is that the run of the mill #'s matching type Camaro is already dropping in value as us who enjoy them are aging and the new buyers are probably into something else. The cream of the crop seem to be holding up ok. I suggest going out and test driving a stock #'s car and a modified car to see what you will enjoy more. It used to be you could buy a nice #'s matching car and it would go up in value. Nice investment you could enjoy. I think those days are gone for the most part. If it were me I would assume it will probably lose money when I sell it but how much fun did I have versus the cost.
Title: Re: How original can one get?
Post by: BULLITT65 on October 25, 2019, 11:37:06 PM
Charley I am split on that issue of value. I have talked to a few people who do the valuations for Hagerty insurance. They see the Barret Jackson cars that sell in 80-115k price range as an aberration. By doing so they look at the broader market where many of the cars sell in the 45-60k range, and peg the value there. When I inquired about the correlation to Jerry or Steve certifying a car and those cars selling in the top bracket of 80k plus, vs non certified cars selling for 60k and below, they stated they are not capable of crunching the numbers that in depth based on certed cars vs non-certed. IMO it is the non certified cars, (many of which get pulled from BJ when they find out it JM will not certify it) the non numbers matching, or undocumented, SS, Z/28, High HP cars, that bring the market down for the certified documented cars. I think the "cream of the crop" still get top dollar for their cars if they are patient for the right buyer to find them, which most are. The "new buyers" whether baby boomers, or any other generation, are somewhat equally in the dark when it comes to being knowledgeable about originality, and how it relates to value. Like everything else they learn by experience and some may purchase a classic car including Camaro, only to find out they want more of a resto-mod, or a more original car than what they have.

Also you have to factor in every year that passes there are new Mustang, Challenger, and Camaros, being sold to a similar muscle car type fan. So based on 2018 alone that was another 75k Mustangs, 66k Challengers, & 40k Camaros. So while there is new drivers being added to the market every year, there is a ton of cars available. This all factors into the demand for the 60's cars. The good news is they made MANY first gen Camaros, enough so that there are ton of them out there that still need restoring, so they are still available for those that want them, in project, driver, or finished show car. I think the great thing is many of the buyers of these new versions, end up being envious of the 60's car owners, and will save to buy their dream 60's car, because they are so iconic.