CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: G Smith on April 06, 2019, 08:06:26 PM
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I am look1ng at a 1969 Z28 to purchase , however the block has been decked is there another spot on the Block to find the vin #
PLEASE help Block has been decked no Engine or vin visible >:(
*removed poll*
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http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#PartialVINs
With the block decked, it is now essentially NOM. That will be a significant problem when you want to move it. There may be a VIN stamp near the oil filter but that hardly proves it is a Z/28.
Don't know why you are bothering with this. Unless it is otherwise a totally original car with bullet-proof docs, I'd pass.
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if the vin near the oil filter matches the cars vin, would not that indicate the Motor is true to the car ? Everything else proves out x77 z28
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Can you elaborate on "everything else"?
Thanks, Doc.
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if the vin near the oil filter matches the cars vin, would not that indicate the Motor is true to the car?
No, restamps are common and the term 'numbers-matching' can mean very different things to being original to the car. The block casting number and cast date will help determine if it dates from the right timeframe, but as stated, if the pad has been decked and the car has no docs, it can never be proven. Is there a 1/4" NPT plug in the oil gallery above the timing chain cover?
The Z/28 is one of the most often faked models, so many details need to be checked to see if they hint at what it left the factory as.
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Eververy thing on the car says Z28 that i have found so far including the vin near the oil filter , it hard to believe if some Moron milled off the deck numbers (witch would be easy to do if he was an idiot) that would make the authenticity of the block questionable
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i have not checked the 1/4 not
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Word has it that Jerry MacNeish has certified the car many years ago , after that at some time the Engine was rebuilt and Decked maybe i should see if he has any records of that. I am looking at $55K for the car
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Is this car in the pacific NW by any chance?
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Word has it that Jerry MacNeish has certified the car many years ago , after that at some time the Engine was rebuilt and Decked maybe i should see if he has any records of that. I am looking at $55K for the car
Should be no maybe about it concerning checking possible JerryM certified. From your last sentence I’m not sure if your selling or looking at buying! Personally I’d not consider buying with decked motor as it will always be suspect and hurts value immensely.
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it is in Edmonds Washington and yes i am considering buying , Butt Damm i am scared to pull the trigger i need serious help with this
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Post a link to the car. What is the VIN?
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Hi,
I live in Renton, WA about 30 minutes from Edmonds if you need any help.
PM me if i nterested.
Mike
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if the vin near the oil filter matches the cars vin, would not that indicate the Motor is true to the car ? Everything else proves out x77 z28
Yes, in instances like this, I tend to disagree with others.
That is of course if you are certain we are looking at a real Z. For this scenario to work, for me, it would have to be a Norwood car with an X code for starters. As long as you are certain it has a legit data plate and is original to the car, hasn't been tampered with, and is an X33 or X77 then we can be fairly comfortable it's a Z. Other tell tail signs would help as well. As long as the vin tag is also original and untampered with, and lines up with the build time frame, then you're off to a good start.
From there, really the vin at the oil filter would be enough to confirm it's the original block, as long as you're certain that vin is original and untampered. At this point there is enough evidence you are looking at the original block. If all that checks out it wouldn't scare me a bit and would have little affect on value in my opinion. The deck stamp isn't the "tell all" and they are frequently messed with, but it's certainly nice to have if it's real. What saves a car like this, in this instance, is that Norwood was thankfully stamping vins at the oil filter by this time frame. Otherwise all would be lost.
What's interesting is that this process has been used to verify LOS built Z's that have no X code, by verifying the vin at the oil filter matches the car LOL. Sort of reverse prognosis. So to say it's not a viable means of verification on an X code Z is a bit odd.
Decking the block isn't that uncommon. Many were done back in the day when these cars weren't worth much so it's not unusual to see. So many of these engines (all models) have terrible deck surface heights that very several thousandths front to back, side to side, some blocks are actually twisted. Doing a proper rebuild almost always includes "squaring" up the block after align honing which means sometimes a light pass on the decks to sometimes taking off several thousandths.
Then you can get into the "zero" decking scenario where builders want tight quench for better mixture motion, fends off detonation, makes more power with less timing required etc.... Some move piston pin heights, some deck the block, or a combination of both.
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Thanks so much for the help , this is a buy or not buy situation for me , i will post some more pertinent info tomorrow , stamps ,vin cowl tag and so on , i refuse to believe a decked block should nix the deal if all else points to Original Z28
there is V0I9DZ on the pad but i can't see a VIN i will look very close tomorrow . thank you so much my stress level is less the more input i get
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Unless you are confident in assessing partial VIN stamps and if a TT has been off the car, I would not agree with Larry that a partial VIN match to an X-coded NOR car confirms Z/28 with factory block. There are known examples where a savvy person has found a trim tag from a donor car and put it on another car with a VIN from the right timeframe. Especially if the block has been decked but still has a partial that matches car.
Just cautioning the OP to tread carefully, do research and due diligence. Considering a $55k purchase for most is a significant thing, no need to go in with the heart not the head.
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Listen to Tim. I agree with him. Unfortunately when money is involved, there are unscrupulous people wanting to cash in.
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Here is the link to the Z28 with the decked block (www.bobosrodsandcustoms.com/1969-chevrolet-camaro-z28-62900-00/ check it out ant tell my what you think .
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The car i am talking about is not on Ebay , it is Fathom Green , not the White one on Ebay
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I'm always leery of ads that don't post pictures of the trim tag and engine pad. Do you know what the VIN is and do you have a picture of the trim tag?
Ed
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i will have all pictures tomorrow
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Valve covers are backwards, no smog + wrong exhaust manifolds, spray bombed undercarriage. Proceed with caution and post those pics fast!
Doc.
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I looked the car over and for 56,000 it has some items that are not restored right to start with. The PBT stamps should be one color, no smog, exhaust manifolds dont have smog fitting that I can see so thats not right, looks like 70 valve covers, they look like to much shine for originals. Should a green interior have black headrests?? Looks like green interior on my monitor. The intake manifold should not have the oil fill tube. With those items I would look it over good I think the color and the block situation does hurt the value also. Too much green for me. Then theres the undercoating on the bottom of the floor pan.
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There are known examples of the PBT stamps being two different colors.
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Original dark green headrests fade to black.
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Thanks so much for the help , this is a buy or not buy situation for me , i will post some more pertinent info tomorrow , stamps ,vin cowl tag and so on , i refuse to believe a decked block should nix the deal if all else points to Original Z28
there is V0I9DZ on the pad but i can't see a VIN i will look very close tomorrow . thank you so much my stress level is less the more input i get
Just keep in mind for verification of original block without a deck stamp to be viable, you have to be certain the trim tag and vin tag have never been tampered with and are legit....AND...certain the vin stamped at the oil filter pad is also legit. In which case as I said, then you can be fairly confident it's still the original engine to the car regardless of being decked. If there is in fact a JM report on the car, this will likely be pointed out.
I've known this process to be used on some non x-code Z's as a way to verify the cars origin or authenticity, and how some cars have been discovered, so to say it's not a viable method of documentation on what is known as a real Z to check for it's original block that is missing it's DZ stamp is somewhat hypocritical.
It's just an area that has to be looked at carefully before laying down money. As others said, the 69 Z is probably the most cloned car in history and there is a lot of that to go around when there is money to be made. If the tags looks tampered with or off in any way, or the vin doesn't match up with other stamps of the period or looks off in any way, or the vin simply isn't legible which is very common, I'd walk away.
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Unless you are confident in assessing partial VIN stamps and if a TT has been off the car, I would not agree with Larry that a partial VIN match to an X-coded NOR car confirms Z/28 with factory block.
Your first sentence is the key, and I pointed that out, I thought I was clear on that. Not trying to mislead anyone. The fact is..... If the X-code TT is original and never removed, as well as the vin tag, and you have a good untampered vin at the oil filter on the block, then you can be pretty darn sure you're looking at a DZ engine original to the car, whether it's decked or not. If it's all legit, then how could we not think that? We would be kidding ourselves.
Some people may not like it, but it's still a pretty solid verification, and how quite a few non X Z's have been verified over the years.
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If the PTB stamps were original I wouldn't have a problem with 2 different colors.
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Not sure what the 'hypocritical' comment is aimed at.
The OP does not sound confident at assessing the details, so I think it fair to point out that unless you know your way around these cars, get it inspected by someone who does, or pass. We're talking big $$ here for a purchase that may or may not be what it purports to be.
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Tim, agree that someone familiar with the details should look at the car. My original statement was towards his 3rd posted question which is why I quoted it. There is no way anyone can deny a Z with it's original engine using the vin stamp alone, as long as things haven't been tampered with. That's what vins are for, and have been used in that fashion to document non x-code cars in a reverse prognosis as well as reuniting lost engines with known cars. Don't necessarily even need the deck stamp. That seemed to be the OP's concern since the engine had been decked and asking if the vin would be another way to verify original status, and my response was YES it would be as long as things are untampered. He didn't seem to be getting a clear answer to that from anyone from what I read. Just providing reassurance that not all is lost.
He said he would provide more pictures which I'm sure all of us would like to see. Very hard to get a camera in the oil filter area for a clear vin picture though. If it has in fact been inspected by JM as mentioned, this stuff should already be documented as well.
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The car in the pics looks like a really nice driver to me. For a real Z with no issues the price to me is about where one would start. If you want 100% correct a fair amount of things need to be done. A nice non Z seems to be $35 - $45 these days. If it all checks out all the better.
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The car in the pics looks like a really nice driver to me. For a real Z with no issues the price to me is about where one would start. If you want 100% correct a fair amount of things need to be done. A nice non Z seems to be $35 - $45 these days. If it all checks out all the better.
Those were my thoughts exactly, nice driver quality to have some fun with. That's also where I would expect the price range to be for something like this. Easy to pick this level of car apart but if someone wants something better you'll end up paying more than $50k. One has to decide what they want to spend vs what they want for an example.
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Good news today , 1969 Z28, X33, VIN#124379N681968 ,i did find the vin stamp buy the oil filter , Engine cast #3970010 , proper intake ,proper heads , N681968 tranny stamp , proper Distributor , correct DZ stamped Carb , also the BU stamped posi rear end 3.73 , and also VO8I9DZ on the top pad , Made my day :)
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i should say X33
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VO8I9DZ on the top pad
So it wasn't decked after all? Sounds promising, but if you're planning to purchase it, I'd suggest you post pictures of the drivetrain stamps and cast dates, also the cowl tag. Several very knowledgeable members here who can offer their opinions on authenticity.
Hope it all checks out!
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Agree with Tim, posting pictures of those stamps and letting knowledgeable eyes have a look would be best. Replied to your PM, sorry I couldn't help with pictures but Kurt and others here can.
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Car was on ebay back in 06 in FL.
Did Jerry appraise it?
Got a pic of the pad?