CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: Edgemontvillage on April 02, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
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Fisher Body applied a sealer tape over the production emblem stud holes on the trunk lid when the D80 spoiler option was installed and the "Camaro by Chevrolet" emblem was relocated to a forward location. Fisher used a sealer tape with a unique woven pattern that can be seen in the photo from John Hinkley's (John Z) February 69 build Norwood Z/28. The location and size of the tape strip Fisher used can be seen in the second photo. I have been trying to locate a sealing tape with the same or a very similar woven pattern. Does anyone have a source for this type and pattern of sealer tape?
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7914/46799939404_c8cd8e1afc_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eixVuY) (https://flic.kr/p/2eixVuY) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4814/45090887205_824566f6bd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2bGwzPK) (https://flic.kr/p/2bGwzPK) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
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I wonder if that might be the same tape that was used on their water test where the subframe bushing are or where the 1/4 windows are? Just guessing. I can't imagine them using a bunch of different tapes....Joe
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I wonder if that might be the same tape that was used on their water test where the subframe bushing are or where the 1/4 windows are? Just guessing. I can't imagine them using a bunch of different tapes....Joe
Interesting question. The tape used for the under-body spray test was a paper-based crepe that was intended to seal (and survive) a couple of minutes whereas the tape used on the trunk lid was intended to prevent water leakage into the trunk for the service life of the vehicle. Could they be the same?
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The tape was missing on mine when I removed the spoiler, but I thought a bitumen-coated woven fabric self-adhesive tape from the hardware store would be functionally suitable, such as roofers use for flashing and sealing. As a tiny area stays visible as in John's picture, I guess the colour and texture would be important for you though.
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The tape was missing on mine when I removed the spoiler, but I thought a bitumen-coated woven fabric self-adhesive tape from the hardware store would be functionally suitable, such as roofers use for flashing and sealing. As a tiny area stays visible as in John's picture, I guess the colour and texture would be important for you though.
Tim thanks for the insight, if I can't source a similar material I may try to make it.
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I've seen that picture before... The tape was a rubber coating on a canvas backing, kind of like an "old" air mattress before they were made of plastic. It was Black in color. I never found a good replacement.
Mike
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I've seen that picture before... The tape was a rubber coating on a canvas backing, kind of like an "old" air mattress before they were made of plastic. It was Black in color. I never found a good replacement.
Mike
Good insight Mike, it narrows the type of material used to seal the trunk lid and a canvas style material would also perform better than a sealing tape.
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Is there any mention of this in assembly manuals ?
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Wouldn't it be in a Fisher assembly manual, which I seem to recall are nowhere to be found?
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Attended MCACN in Chicago last weekend and had the opportunity to view some original 1969 Camaros with factory installed deck spoilers that were candidates for Vintage Certification. Thought I'd add to the thread more photos of original sealing tape
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49125006658_94f6a5ebf5_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hR1uZq) (https://flic.kr/p/2hR1uZq) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
Also showing the factory painter "finger mark"
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49142329641_f4bd7998b3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hSxhvx) (https://flic.kr/p/2hSxhvx) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49142329671_a10649fcf1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hSxhw4) (https://flic.kr/p/2hSxhw4) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
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Did they use this sealing method on Norwood built cars only? I have a March 1969 Los Angeles built Z/28 and they used dum dum to seal the old Camaro Emblem holes.
Dan
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Did they use this sealing method on Norwood built cars only? I have a March 1969 Los Angeles built Z/28 and they used dum dum to seal the old Camaro Emblem holes.
Dan
My 68 Z/28 from L.A. had tape....Joe
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The closest "TAPE" I can duplicate is:
Highly conformable, rubber-Non-resin adhesive and the self-fusing, ethylene propylene, rubber backing provides UV resistance, roll, various widths, with separate-able disposable liner for dispensing, color black, textured, style diamond, non adhesive, avail in std widths 3/4, 1 & 2" with custom widths avail. Thickness avail in 20 or 30 mil.
Photo of material on hand.
Jim
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Good find Jim. The option I was thinking about is gaffers tape. It is an adhesive tape that leaves no residue when removed. I would think that the main property in needs to have is to be water resistant which gaffers tape is. Can be had in a number of widths. The texture looks very similar to that posted in thread pictures.
Dan
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I used black duct tape for that area and black masking tape for the other spots (bought online)
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I've been searching for a material that has the same, fine texture visible in the close up photos of the inside of the trunk lids? Jim, from the photo you posted the material appears to be a diamond weave pattern however what's the close-up texture like on the tape/material you located?
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Try Plymouth 3 BI*SEAL20
1" x 0.020" x 30'
Cat Number 8052
I will take a photo of both sides one smooth shiny and the opposite slight grain (Not large Diamonds like the roll of 3/4" wide I had previously shown, really tiny diamonds probably formed at mfr'g)
I could ship you some? the additional problem is the limited commercial readily available widths of 3/4, 1 & 2 inch wider on special orders.
JIM
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Try Plymouth 3 BI*SEAL20
1" x 0.020" x 30'
Cat Number 8052
I will take a photo of both sides one smooth shiny and the opposite slight grain (Not large Diamonds like the roll of 3/4" wide I had previously shown, really tiny diamonds probably formed at mfr'g)
I could ship you some? the additional problem is the limited commercial readily available widths of 3/4, 1 & 2 inch wider on special orders.
JIM
Jim, I assume this is the material you're referring to. Would appreciate a close up photo of the side with the slight grain.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49165702123_14a31af523_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hUB5kn) (https://flic.kr/p/2hUB5kn) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
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Couple close ups; the grain is still very very small diamonds. I still think it does not match the pebble grain you might be looking for.
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Any updates?
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Nothing yet...working on it.
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Lloyd,
I have been looking through the saved parts I removed during my restoration for the tape that came off the trunk, no luck yet but I still have one box over the garage to look through. I'll let you know if I find it.
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Lloyd,
I have been looking through the saved parts I removed during my restoration for the tape that came off the trunk, no luck yet but I still have one box over the garage to look through. I'll let you know if I find it.
Good luck with the hunt Mike, would be good to get hands on an original.
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Lloyd,
I went through the last box of old parts and didn't find the trunk tape, must be it didn't come off very well or I just didn't save it.
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Lloyd,
I went through the last box of old parts and didn't find the trunk tape, must be it didn't come off very well or I just didn't save it.
Thanks for having a good look for it Mike.
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Lloyd, did you ever find anything suitable?
Doc
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2 replies in this thread report the tape was all the same. Is it possible we are over thinking this? These cars weren't intended to be around for 50+years when they were built. Could the texture seen through the holes just be the "sticky" side of the tape? Dannystarr is it possible to see a picture of the entire area covered by the tape?
Doc.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=18795.0
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Danny posted some great photos in the referenced thread. The best photos I've seen of the tape used to seal the shock tower hole. As for the trunk lid tape - yes we're probably overthinking the subject in the absence of complete information however its unlikely the tape used to seal the piercings on the trunk lid was the same crepe based tape used for the water penetration test which was "once and done". Like the sealer / dumdum used to seal the bolt holes securing the spoiler to the trunk lid, the tape needed to form a waterproof seal for at least...the warranty period. Crepe based tape does not perform well when repeatedly water saturated and would fail resulting in warranty issues.
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I've considered several different tapes and vinyls however none are ideal in terms of duplicating the original sealing tape's weave, sheen and texture. I settled on a 3M product, Temflex 1755 Friction Tape, a sticky, cotton based weave. It was suggested by Jim (169INDY) who sent me a roll (thanks Jim!). From the available photos on-line the tape appears to be about 5" wide and 3" tall. I measured and cut the tape to length then punched 2 holes for the spoiler studs to pass. It's likely these holes were pierced following application with a sharp object on the assembly to allow the spoiler to be installed quickly. I applied 3M spray adhesive for better retention and installed the tape based on the available on-line photo. Ready for spoiler install!
Temflex 1755 wrapper and roll
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499877922_b2f77fb1f1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jWv5jo)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499721941_58f2692b28_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jWugX4)
Measuring and stamping spoiler stud holes
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499877997_615dfc82f7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jWv5kF)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499011318_3a1e6d365c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jWqCGW)
Applied and rolled the tape based on photo reference
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499877727_21a01d95ba_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jWv5g2)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499011163_11b419c905_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jWqCEg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499721611_eae2c576af_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jWugRn)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499010868_27eccb1e1a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jWqCzb)
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Superb research regarding the tape...
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Great job Lloyd.
Now all we need is the "Money Shot" from the inside to see the texture of the glue side of the tape. ;)
Are you going to be selling the tape kits? I'll need one for the Z10 I am doing.
Mike
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Thanks Mike, I'll try to take and post a "money shot" when I finally install the spoiler some time this week - icing on the cake.
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Well not so fast, James G noticed the location of the white stripe looked off-line relative to the Camaro script emblem piercing on the trunk lid. I was pretty sure there was enough original paint on the trunk lid to allow us to duplicate the stripe line however once I took a closer look I concluded it was off for sure, about 1/4 inch off when compared to the stripe line from a photo of my former original paint RS/Z. Seems some paint correction is needed before I can install the spoiler...
Location of Camaro emblem is inboard the white stripe on my former original paint RS/Z
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50515080037_2bbcab457f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jXQZnP)
Stripe is located too far inboard by about 1/4" on Brooklyn Z.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50518229228_65e117bb31_c.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
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Lloyd, Are you sure the stripe is off or is it the emblem positioning ? I’ve noticed lots of difference on both on original cars over the last 50 yrs.
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Lloyd, Are you sure the stripe is off or is it the emblem positioning ? I’ve noticed lots of difference on both on original cars over the last 50 yrs.
Mike, I have a blueprint-template that was part of a stencil kit I purchased years ago so I dug it out and overlaid it on the trunk lid to assess if the placement of the factory piercings was the problem or if was the stripe placement. The factory piercings located consistent with the template so I concluded, somewhat in denial, that the stripe layout had to be off.
If there are any original paint examples of Norwood stripe misalignments please post them here so we can have a look.
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I've no idea about 'mis-alignments, but the photo below is of my emblem position (original factory paint) on my mid Sept '69 Z28/RS... photo was made when I had my rear spoiler removed to replace a stud...
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Thanks for posting Gary, the deck emblem is also well inboard the main stripe edge.
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Lloyd,
How did the factory establish position of the paint stripes?? Depending on how that was done in the factory, there very well could have been *differences* from one car to another... so you might want to 'wait' before repainting your deck lid?? I can't recall ever hearing how that was done (but I wouldn't swear that I haven't heard it and forgotten also!).. :)
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Lloyd,
How did the factory establish position of the paint stripes?? Depending on how that was done in the factory, there very well could have been *differences* from one car to another... so you might want to 'wait' before repainting your deck lid?? I can't recall ever hearing how that was done (but I wouldn't swear that I haven't heard it and forgotten also!).. :)
Fair point - waiting for more data.
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My CRG post at http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=17154.0 might offer some clues on this topic. I repeated much of it below (with relevant changes) to reply to this post.
I just obtained a copy of the GM Maintenance Products & Standard Stock Catalog 907 (P&A 24) dated March 1970. Attached, is a photo of the sealing tape listed on page 11 in the Body Service Items section. It appears that GM sold only two widths of sealing tape as service items, in both cloth and paper material: 1 inch and 2-1/2 inch. Because GM most likely wouldn't waste money having a different width sealing tape on the assembly line than what they sold over the counter, we can probably assume that the service tape was identical to the factory assembly line tape. Based on the anecdotal evidence of the various postings on this topic, along with photos of surviving black cloth tape underneath rear spoilers, one can probably conclude that the tape used for sealing trunk holes for a factory rear spoiler install was #5792002, a black cloth back tape, 2-1/2 inches wide.
Bernie
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Lloyd, any luck with the "money shot"?
Thanks, Doc.
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Hi Doc, I won't be installing the tape until I have the paint correction done on the stripes. James G (firstgenaddict) posted on some assembly tape that's being produced by DNO in Fresno for early Mustangs that's available in up to 3" widths and seems to have good texture so I'm going to order a role of that to experiment.
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Just an FYI... I ordered that tape kit with the 3 different sizes. I compared it to several original samples in my possession. Under several spoilers, inside door panels etc. IMO.. not even close to the original. Probably going to try to use mostly all original with a glue stick for tape that has lost its adhesive properties. Nothing against the company. Just NOT impressed...Danny
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Just an FYI... I ordered that tape kit with the 3 different sizes. I compared it to several original samples in my possession. Under several spoilers, inside door panels etc. IMO.. not even close to the original. Probably going to try to use mostly all original with a glue stick for tape that has lost its adhesive properties. Nothing against the company. Just NOT impressed...Danny
That's disappointing, thanks for investigating.
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Again, just my opinion... Maybe wait for more feedback?. ... Danny
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So when did they quit piercing the deck lid down low where the spoiler went? My 08A car does not have any unused holes under the spoiler.
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I found these pictures transferring files to a new computer. Hood, roof, and trunk lid were still in original lacquer.
On a side note my painter, a PPG sales rep. matched the Dusk Blue BC/CC used on my car to the original lacquer under the spoiler that had never seen the light of day. Lots of different laser scans and spray outs were done as PPG's 51 code then was too purple. Someone else was painting a "high dollar" car 51 code about that same time and PPG donated a gallon to me for the use of my deck lid.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50518229228_65e117bb31_c.jpg)[/url] (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
...finally had the trunk stripe issue addressed by my painter, I added a PN 7752901 emblem and for the tape seal (following several attempts and suggestions), I used the 3M Temflex 1755 which has a texture close to the original and is a fabric style.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50499877922_b2f77fb1f1_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52088475147_4920bd0c60_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52090008760_6dcd889bc7_c.jpg)
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52095521960_bedf2c10c9_c.jpg)
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Just saw this thread Lloyd. My 05A Norwood Z has dum dum sealing the extra holes. I’ve owned it since ‘78, so pretty sure that’s the way it came! Your car looks great by the way!
Buddy
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Interested thread, research, and findings for comparable tape. Nice work Lloyd and others!
So I have an '69 April-built Van Nuys Z. I have no evidence if it came with tape or dum dum stuff to seal up the emblem holes as it was repainted a few times over the years.
Was there a time period that it may have switched to dum dum from tape, or?
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FWIW, My April (C) LOS pacer had tape when I did a Fluff of the incorrect painted Lip of the trunk lid, & I scraped this strange tape that I thought was put on during a 1981 repaint. Just a story as I never thought it held any significance in 1995.
I have a Friend Craig that has a unrestored 04 LOS Pacer (Off the Grid) guy but I am not sure I can get him to pull the spoiler.
Jim
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Thanks. Excellent data point as mine is an 04B VN build date.
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A side question arose that I thought I should address, Why was I using the larger 4721222 trunk lid rubber bumper rather than the smaller profile version? My Norwood 2B build RS Z was factory optioned with the shorty '68 carryover rear spoiler and used the same 472 bumper used in '68 production until the full width spoiler was phased in during February-early March 69.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52095145643_f1ec1c899c_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52111231108_a5ca944023_z.jpg)
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Given that the first 50 Yenkos built the 2nd week of January had wide spoliers, it's kind of odd that they were not installed on other cars until Late Feb.
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Given that the first 50 Yenkos built the 2nd week of January had wide spoliers, it's kind of odd that they were not installed on other cars until Late Feb.
James, I understand that February was a transition month during which the carry-over shorty spoiler inventory was used up. From what I have seen, there are examples of both shorty and full width spoilers being installed in-production during February 1969 and as late as early March. As the January built Yenko cars were COPO orders its "possible" they were given priority.
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Exactly what I have seen as well Lloyd, I had just observed and wondered about the Yenkos... After dealing with the 02D
Daytona Yellow Berger RS COPO (narrow spoiler) and then Daves Yellow X66 01B Yenko which solidified the whole thing in my mind.
BTW... your car looks incredible.
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Lloyd , im confuse with the 69 rally stripes on the narrow spoiler , i thought it would be early 68 rally stripes for early 69... Ric
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Only a few early LA cars have been found with the 68 stripe layout and the latest car know of, I believe was built the 1st or 2nd week of October.
We have 2nd week of September built Norwood cars which have the 69 style stripe layout.
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Lloyd , im confuse with the 69 rally stripes on the narrow spoiler , i thought it would be early 68 rally stripes for early 69... Ric
Ric, there is a good thread on the subject: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=11927.15
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So when did they quit piercing the deck lid down low where the spoiler went? My 08A car does not have any unused holes under the spoiler.
Long research topic on Deck lid emblem piercings covered here :http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=3752.0 (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=3752.0)
The synopsis: when Firebird production was merged with Camaros at Norwood in April/May a non pierced decklid became necessary due to the fact that firebirds did not have emblem holes which matched Camaros AND the T/A spoiler would not cover like the Camaro spoiler did.
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Thanks for the info guys, so Lloyd yours is early Los with narrow spoiler and shorter rear stripes ??
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Thanks for the info guys, so Lloyd yours is early Los with narrow spoiler and shorter rear stripes ??
My Z is a February 69 Norwood build, optioned with the narrow (shorty) spoiler and it received standard Z/28 stripes. As mentioned, (see the link I provided), the '68 stripes were carried over only during early production.