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Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: 67jeffreyt on February 09, 2019, 01:14:42 PM

Title: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 67jeffreyt on February 09, 2019, 01:14:42 PM
Could you order a 69 Camaro with rally sport and copo 427 and not badge the car as an SS?   And secondly if GM advertised the cowl induction for the Camaro as a super scoop, how was it labeled and sold by the dealer?  Was it sold as super scoop or was it listed as cowl induction?  I've read that Chevelle got the cowl induction name first.  I wasn't born yet so I'm asking for clarification. 
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 68camaroz28 on February 09, 2019, 01:35:05 PM
They were not badged SS
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: william on February 09, 2019, 02:12:25 PM
2 of the 69 ZL1 COPOs were RS; approximately 50-100 of the 997 L72 COPOs were RS. None of the COPO cars were ordered or badged as SS. Both ZL1 RS and most of the L72 RS were built with RS front/rear badging and Camaro fender emblems. After July, they were built with rally-sport fender emblems.

"Super Scoop" was a marketing name. The ZL2 option was known as Special Ducted Hood. It was included with COPO 9560 & 9561 and does not appear on factory documents for those cars.

Correct; Cowl Induction started with the 1970 Chevelle.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 67jeffreyt on February 09, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
That is great information, thank you very much
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: group/7 on February 10, 2019, 03:35:29 PM
Here are a couple of ads for the Camaro with the Super Scoop. I really like the one that says "insert foot...open mouth" 
The ads from that time were really cool !
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: group/7 on February 10, 2019, 05:06:29 PM
67jeffreyt, thanks for starting this topic, Coming back to this just for interest, william, in your post about the COPO cars & the ZL2

 hood. I have the '69 GM Vehicle Ordering Manual for the Camaro  that dealers had. It is dated April 1, 1969. The  "Hood,
 
Special Ducted ZL2"  shows on the  blue sheet, but not on the white one listing the options. There are no COPO options showing on

 the sheet with Power Teams, was this something that came in after this date, April 1, 1969. Was there a separate, or later listing.

 Maybe because this is the Canadian book, it was not available. I think there were COPOs sold in Canada ?

Ready to learn, Mike.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: BULLITT65 on February 10, 2019, 05:11:27 PM
It was my understanding that the COPO program was a big secret (not widely known), and besides having the knowledge you had to know the right dealer to get an order through. I also thought this was the case for the ZL-1, and the L88 option.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: bcmiller on February 10, 2019, 06:08:59 PM
Mike or group/7

You won’t see a Powerteams listing for the 427s.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: william on February 10, 2019, 06:39:12 PM
It is not known how availability of COPOs 9560, 9561 & 9737 was communicated throughout the dealer network. Legend has it they were supposed to be exclusive to their respective dealerships, Gibb Chevrolet and Yenko Chevrolet. But Berger Chevrolet learned of them early on and initially ordered one of each. Their ZL1 [body # 211785] was actually ordered prior to Gibbs' 50 car order.

Chevrolet deliberately avoided listing either 427 engine in build records. ZL1 & L72 COPO vehicle build records list the L78 engine making the official published option total of 4,889 incorrect. There were 69 ZL1s, 997 L72s and 3,823 L78s.

L88 and ZL1 engines were Corvette options. Those cars are not considered COPOs.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: BULLITT65 on February 10, 2019, 06:48:27 PM
I saw a 69 unrestored car at the "survivor show" in Bloomington a few years ago claiming to be a rare L88 SS Camaro. Are you saying this was not an available special option, and he could have only gotten those over the counter for a 69 Camaro?
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: bcmiller on February 10, 2019, 07:27:20 PM
I saw a 69 unrestored car at the "survivor show" in Bloomington a few years ago claiming to be a rare L88 SS Camaro. Are you saying this was not an available special option, and he could have only gotten those over the counter for a 69 Camaro?

No factory L88 Camaros from 1967 to 1969. Period.

I do know a few things....

 ::)
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: ZLP955 on February 10, 2019, 07:29:58 PM
Several engines don't feature in some power team lists. If you download the '69 Camaro package from the GM Heritage Center, it doesn't even have the 302ci Z/28 engine specs, or any 396ci other than L35.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: william on February 10, 2019, 08:24:00 PM
In the late '80s Len Williamson wrote a book listing Chevrolet production totals back to 1960. He requested and received data from Chevrolet and published it, apparently unaltered. The summation lists engines by cubic inch displacement; the option totals list each version.

Every 1st Gen Camaro production figure you have ever seen came from his data.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: rlw68 on February 10, 2019, 09:10:21 PM
It is not known how availability of COPOs 9560, 9561 & 9737 was communicated throughout the dealer network. Legend has it they were supposed to be exclusive to their respective dealerships, Gibb Chevrolet and Yenko Chevrolet. But Berger Chevrolet learned of them early on and initially ordered one of each. Their ZL1 [body # 211785] was actually ordered prior to Gibbs' 50 car order.

I've seen several 1969 dealer ads announcing the availability of 427 Camaros.   Guess the secret got out at some point.

Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 10, 2019, 09:11:34 PM
I saw a 69 unrestored car at the "survivor show" in Bloomington a few years ago claiming to be a rare L88 SS Camaro. Are you saying this was not an available special option, and he could have only gotten those over the counter for a 69 Camaro?

No factory L88 Camaros from 1967 to 1969. Period.

I do know a few things....
 ::)

Bryon,  I believe your statement would be accurate leaving off the '67-69 limitation!   :)
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 10, 2019, 09:14:27 PM
It is not known how availability of COPOs 9560, 9561 & 9737 was communicated throughout the dealer network. Legend has it they were supposed to be exclusive to their respective dealerships, Gibb Chevrolet and Yenko Chevrolet. But Berger Chevrolet learned of them early on and initially ordered one of each. Their ZL1 [body # 211785] was actually ordered prior to Gibbs' 50 car order.

I've seen several 1969 dealer ads announcing the availability of 427 Camaros.   Guess the secret got out at some point.

Except for the COPOS, the *factory* did NOT install 427's in Camaros.   Dealerships DID swap engines and install 'non-factory' engines for high performance customers.. such as Baldwin Motion which was well known and displayed in many high perf magazines of the day!
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: fsc66 on February 10, 2019, 09:20:06 PM
GM Heritage PDF has loads of info on the Z28 including power team, also has power team info on the L78 and mentions the L89.

Paul
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: BULLITT65 on February 10, 2019, 09:25:18 PM
Sorry I meant to say L89. which there were a few of those (311). But how well known was that option in relation to the others?
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 10, 2019, 09:32:29 PM
The L89 option was not a 427 option, but instead was an option for 'aluminum heads', which work fine on 396 (L78 engines) and while I've never seen one myself, I understand there are original '69 Camaros carrying those from the factory on 396 engines!
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: rlw68 on February 11, 2019, 12:58:13 AM
I've seen several 1969 dealer ads announcing the availability of 427 Camaros.   Guess the secret got out at some point.

Except for the COPOS, the *factory* did NOT install 427's in Camaros.   Dealerships DID swap engines and install 'non-factory' engines for high performance customers.. such as Baldwin Motion which was well known and displayed in many high perf magazines of the day!

I thought numerous dealerships ordered the COPO 9561 directly.  My assumption was they were advertising these.  Both ads are from ~April 69 and Lowe has a car on the sYc registry.




Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: ZLP955 on February 11, 2019, 02:21:36 PM
GM Heritage PDF has loads of info on the Z28 including power team, also has power team info on the L78 and mentions the L89.
Paul
Not in the Power Team section of this one:
https://www.gmheritagecenter.com/docs/gm-heritage-archive/vehicle-information-kits/Camaro/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro.pdf
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 67jeffreyt on February 12, 2019, 03:10:42 AM
I love the information, I was born in 71 and missed all the old high performance, verses smog dog 80s.  To have seen all this firsthand would have been great, but at the time probably seemed mundane and not seem like it's future would become so rare.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: fsc66 on February 12, 2019, 05:03:29 AM
Power team info in GM Heritage PDF that Tim posted the link for. Z28 loaded with details including power team info pages: 92-113. Power team info for L78, L89 and again Z28 on page: 179

Paul Winvoices
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: ZLP955 on February 12, 2019, 08:28:32 AM
My point was that the details of those engines are not included in the main list of power team combinations in the literature, they are buried in the supplementary scanned pages towards the end of that PDF document. Same applies to the list of engines shown in the sales brochures, not even listed in contemporary documents under 'Extra Cost Engines' in the 1969 Camaro Power Teams chart.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: z28z11 on February 13, 2019, 02:16:57 AM
The L89 option was not a 427 option, but instead was an option for 'aluminum heads', which work fine on 396 (L78 engines) and while I've never seen one myself, I understand there are original '69 Camaros carrying those from the factory on 396 engines!

Gary,

I've seen 2 in the flesh, corresponded with an owner of a 3rd. in the Northwest with a documented L89 coupe years back. I guess that makes me able to claim I've known of about 1% of the L89 Camaros produced in '69 -lol.

Regards,
Steve
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 13, 2019, 03:10:39 AM
While I'm not a big block fan, if one is going to have one....  aluminum heads address a couple of the problems with them..  :)

PS.  I walk right by big block anything....  so maybe I've been within *sight* of one or more, but didn't *SEE* it..  :)
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: sixt9x33rs on February 17, 2019, 11:02:23 PM
It is not known how availability of COPOs 9560, 9561 & 9737 was communicated throughout the dealer network. Legend has it they were supposed to be exclusive to their respective dealerships, Gibb Chevrolet and Yenko Chevrolet. But Berger Chevrolet learned of them early on and initially ordered one of each. Their ZL1 [body # 211785] was actually ordered prior to Gibbs' 50 car order.

What a great list of cars to chose from. Man, several 4:56 geared cars. So cool

I've seen several 1969 dealer ads announcing the availability of 427 Camaros.   Guess the secret got out at some point.


It is not known how availability of COPOs 9560, 9561 & 9737 was communicated throughout the dealer network. Legend has it they were supposed to be exclusive to their respective dealerships, Gibb Chevrolet and Yenko Chevrolet. But Berger Chevrolet learned of them early on and initially ordered one of each. Their ZL1 [body # 211785] was actually ordered prior to Gibbs' 50 car order.

I've seen several 1969 dealer ads announcing the availability of 427 Camaros.   Guess the secret got out at some point.


Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: rlw68 on February 18, 2019, 04:12:43 AM
Quote from: sixt9x33rs

What a great list of cars to chose from. Man, several 4:56 geared cars. So cool


You could have bought all six Z/28's then for just under $25K ...  tax, title, and tags out the door   8)
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 18, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: sixt9x33rs

What a great list of cars to chose from. Man, several 4:56 geared cars. So cool

You could have bought all six Z/28's then for just under $25K ...  tax, title, and tags out the door   8)

...but... at that time, 25K was more than 2 years pay for the typical middle class worker!  :)
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: jdv69z on February 18, 2019, 01:48:05 PM

Chevrolet deliberately avoided listing either 427 engine in build records. ZL1 & L72 COPO vehicle build records list the L78 engine making the official published option total of 4,889 incorrect. There were 69 ZL1s, 997 L72s and 3,823 L78s.

L88 and ZL1 engines were Corvette options. Those cars are not considered COPOs.

How did the number of COPO's built get determined? I've never seen that info, and am curious.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: X33RS on February 18, 2019, 03:54:18 PM
I'm assuming it came from the Len Williamson book as William stated.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: william on February 18, 2019, 04:46:05 PM
L72 COPO production was buried in the Tailfins & Bowties data. The data was obtained directly from Chevrolet in the ‘80s and reprinted in the book Tailfins and Bowties. All of the oft-repeated ’69 Camaro production numbers-3,675 Z11s, 20,302 Z/28s-came from this data.

The data lists 1969 Camaro production by engine size; 230, 250, 327 et cetera. No 427 engine is listed but the figures total 243,085, same as 1969 production. COPO 9560 [ZL1] & 9561 [L72] build records always list L78 for some reason but not Z27 [Camaro SS].

Ergo, both COPO 427 options are included in the L78 totals.

The L48 [300/350] was the standard Camaro SS engine; 22,339 built. Camaro SS optional 396 engines; 13,659 built. Data shows 34,932 Camaro SS produced. Adding L48 and 396 totals, 22,339 + 13,659 = 35,998.

That’s 1,066 more than Camaro SS.

There were 69 COPO 9560 Camaros built; 1,066 – 69 = 997 COPO 9561 cars. Tonawanda engine production records have been known for decades. 822 MN and 193 MO; 1,015 L72 Camaro 427 engines.

That means the L78 total of 4,889 is inflated. Actual L78 production would be 3,823.

Just for the record, L89 was not an engine option. It was an aluminum cylinder head option that required ordering the L78 engine. Factory docs for those cars always list both. The L78 total includes the 311 L89 cars.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: group/7 on March 22, 2019, 11:52:29 PM
Dealer ad for '69 ZL-1 Camaro    ;)
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 69Z28-RS on March 23, 2019, 04:41:26 AM
No price listed for the ZL-1 Camaro!  :)    Does anyone know?

IIRC Getting the ZL-1 engine in a '69 Corvette was a $3000 option price (the base car wasn't a huge lot more than that)..
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: ZLP955 on March 23, 2019, 04:50:05 AM
No price listed for the ZL-1 Camaro!  :)    Does anyone know?
IIRC Getting the ZL-1 engine in a '69 Corvette was a $3000 option price (the base car wasn't a huge lot more than that)..
Stickered at over $7,300 according to http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: william on March 23, 2019, 01:12:07 PM
COPO 9560 initially [#1 & #2] had an MSRP of $4,160.50. Later units were priced at $4,160.15. 9560 required an optional transmission, power front disc brakes and F70 x 14 RWL tires.  One ZL1 does not list the tires.

The ZL1 aluminum block was a Corvette option and priced differently; it required ordering the L88 at extra cost.
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: 69Z28-RS on March 23, 2019, 02:08:34 PM
OK...  rather than relying on my old memory ($3000 ZL1 option  I read in a car mag many years ago!).. I consulted my Corvette black book:

           1969 Corvette Coupe                   $4781    (Convertible $4438)
ZL1      Special L88 (aluminum block)       $4718    (included required K66, F41, J56, AND G81

So how much of the $4718 came from K66 (TI Ign - $81.10), F41 (Special F/R susp  $36.90), J56 (special HD brakes $384.45), and G81 (Posi rear axle $46.35).  These items contributed  $548.80 to the ZL1 retail price listed, still leaving $4169 as the extra cost of the engine itself (above the standard 350 ci engine!).

Note:   The option price of the L88 option was *only* $1032, so just adding the 'aluminum block' was 4169-1032 = $3137!    So maybe that's where that old magazine got the 'over $3000 option price!??).

Antonick's 'Camaro White Book' states that the additional cost for the sixty nine COPO 9560 with aluminum block 427 was $4160.  Camaro Sport Coupe V8 was retailed at $2727.

Needless to say, getting the aluminum 427 L88 engine in anything was EXPENSIVE...  :)    and only available if you knew to ask for it!   (Only two '69 Corvettes were sold with the ZL1 engine).
       

Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: Vince on March 23, 2019, 04:09:51 PM
I found it interesting from the Lustine ad that it listed the ZL1's with 625 horses and that only 84 were built nationally.  I wonder where these figures came from.  69 ZL1's is pretty definite I guess from everything I have ever read.  I bet the 625 horses is a lot closer to real gross hp than factories claim of 425. 
Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: william on March 23, 2019, 09:07:41 PM
625 hp is nonsense.

Back in the day we worked with Bill Porterfield. He built a 'restoration' ZL1 engine and dyno tested it in various configurations. As installed with production exhaust and AIR system, 375 hp. With a good tune up and open headers, 523 hp. With modern thin piston rings and racing oil today they can produce 550 hp.

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

Title: Re: Two questions of 69 Camaro options
Post by: Vince on March 24, 2019, 08:27:59 PM
Thanks for the clarification William and the link.