CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: z10kl on January 17, 2019, 03:22:45 PM
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What color is rubber coating? I want to sand down my original and don't want to go too far . It has small cracks which I think is mostly in the coating.
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There is not a rubber coating, the entire thing is made of natural colored Urethane. Then it was originally finished in a flexible paint.
If you strip it or use media you can blast it off, then if there are cracks in the urethane it can be ground out and all repaired using 3M or Lord Fusor automix flexible parts repair, then prime with Speis Hecker flexible primer and shoot the base then clear with flex agent added.
Here is one I stripped a few years ago... it was bent and the damaged urethane was previously repaired.
I set it up with the inner mounts in a jig and used a hydraulic press to push the middle front down...
I ground all of the previous repair out as it was much softer than the original urethane, replaced it and then primed and painted it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/mE42BvmyyxAgpjQvUAmq8J3hn9BvhkEqA7HUBsc7z744_-ljOiZCNofh4pRTlj1nhBBr5IhkJNHxUlzhquUDPzBLIymAWH6qjtLRNxCGNITH8BXMkw6FqLW01EcgbxfRzzRovg0Rq-3cy_RDrDfougwElkzBGBsEZyCHLiOUCxtGBoolf6qpAITx2l8oCz59nUGuiXG89yeG13rlSSi87mkrwwcg7ffxE7ODKu7uYbdL3FJ8IUZnP3sBkfBXUPDewG1VxZW1fh8Dj5wjm_lxWMGHXbauLKS8GQoijmCb_vVLnyP9Fi9mA6DBSSzFebGD9wnf-xBd7HRefRv7ctPO3bctOXoL0Ka3sgG4ulp_JclIvX666-efZRvSQJlj8UfFR37nKhoR31rMT4e96Xtp3NzmxsWweLTpnuQLhvfvuUkD05nuw_g-yH2n-nawnV4Yqx--XV54LgwN8WxvMrv-SIOq9tzMbDBqC2RpW7_x_UiJXo9Jh5i7m44euW47-TBRXQdQ7jdpsvsgGdnDAwkmgBQXQvey3xp_qbjgzT6g1sFsr9Wan8pk0ZmZanCgart1C6qKM0nN9VZx6Xx4wF2qhcSwGbDe8EdERaKm0unoHWyvudahgalrjcmT3fx_4XJNnOZOp6Sf7MpacFxUDUcP3Jjl1lIiu60oQ4UL67V-ztGbSE_qP1wXteoWYxAhuHXMw8beHhG7C7iYBFg_kow=w1523-h1142-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/867VoAzgWajGnE5fqgW7dIBlHwxCSOTitD912ujAOQuw9Pgp6R1yOpW0WJez_05JandEc3KXP9J2GFtFqBr3-3tKglWigNSFzmkdtpSbP0RraW3dBdrvMAKyP8vFMArn5kAOkmjMWEn3P9Z4aCq2zBc82zLzPjMWSFH58XcTp1EEcaM-Dw4B8ChJxeYXz7-lbjwUxROHxm9WEaSq0Lp_2uNEFKvH3PHFAplF5TlhsbK6Lms89S-n1QvS_ibAH1rADVK2rvm6ej6GRfVwO1UUmCvTgcc2MT2kYD6INlIvcf-YSRpRohhfLygxIWSB3lqYTMN35Y5vHq6bUCqdLeOlD8EveyziSNdorJfWeR1J-WEpa6Hy0aOQ5Q3B4D0WAlw08TBsklqL5L4IFAzUxq8OjC_4Mhx_u-_y5IbxAC9ZvCEPq3-9oSxPnL8ij1a1K9feWVWL7L7vyMhWmth-EgVvGcQYkCIPuReuRm1GUJFYdOgRxmYLlglpdNYUlaV3HLJs-341Rx1bvhJ77bjDk_FQnmCaYQczoXkp2Uc9_K2Pu-cheCFDvFkOP9SLglnPriYkGutrv5WVJJyEKM0vdUrwhzyzrVXy6OiyUDa4E5ZOWJ2ZXCiZa1_K_m6GXMGSSDHCxr0mfVSynQD2pTcKX5qpBfXn-lTZVo3LeZ-SU0zuZC30rV4bb3IvJpkCcTWbXHjPOUtMYjmG0EExUDMK7Ys=w762-h1143-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8Rps6MyoNWoqI1vERJxvQxrQ2HegBfU6tyO_xn0RlLFFStWJjxUg4pXRC67Vs4qZDEFDS-X2Ro_lpOxUO4GkXlHbMkN7L9pvgtwFG5FKoWmmhkAgeigi6jYorN70kXYpLC9OXzIVPb3cVXLuaDatWkHyigMl1y3IWaZ_6uribMmp_AaIC1sJnlu11wjvLc8tcIW6Mn-K-pD1QQ2jsXkTx0xkiqVSJecqSIvLs8SJKZ3HsZdTiG7bzbF3LOndUXAQGrFc25m8YkHgYPTh4sS6boPkmdeJJ9lh284GEdKAXnIALw9T_6uaZO1edUhRRDmNCdIiC_YEL5JQIo6l9fkRrg5_K3RF6eP0H_4PsZeA1lyQPv1FfbpJKXRR6zykzbcw4I0UR5_XiE1n7F4hGRDobczDOFFw3U8tpUdGLzkW-CKy3J97pV8XvfQlawcbh443xzPtffKAO9KPjEvLVizlWl8LMLzGTqcIeR2CRGt6GCtT4dVYJfb1uRTOQ3jColBoFkemiUuhU85Toz5EWITz_sCHedESPmpdvzgLHumyjOkRwwcW4qTiOtX7YWFbm_RNN5vuGZAqW3xoUCuvNbDNfGZPNptfP-271zEPvOvTQ0Q4U2aaWCXwL0QKNlicsQsLowvndy_SgEgPVSbt3I7ycybXTYlkUcgWApykkhX8bzNgD4tx3r62bJSGZpBDRfjRqJ196f16RtDpolYURNk=w1608-h1073-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/nb06K4OoNZz1UyT8cTPOM_J4jkWVsy6bBWJTFRryVSgCKObXzerc74Aggrq1rlVZk_eE2pcagkjZgjSZia_q29DDK1_TX_BVxQcSYB0J6aDQsT0Kny0yi93uPG0jOva6ZK_kON0YZX-9NMPtreJ55VwQdvRDWKL20_8c-d-r5o_d2gJojtBMiCAFnIOk1dX9gwkdh1QpZmFzBvCzE_xEcfjB-pkpsGx-JDtryq7VTWcvMOuAvUPfcuKosWWjkz6NpI9sLGMzRNO-Dh54XSHeWnL6DBOz7qxmqYBCelUAVEoQruECKtdQdz0yxEX6ia70ozPciWH6t9ffeZcsbhyFH5ULIweqB4YQlrPLKT0a82faj9xk1RFgF7AMfzSirnpe0AeWb-SoxW775FtUMAyxl8urwkfFxiexOZ8cl5pXDVldWQPiyrDDI0HH8Sa2thZ4_SuMmvRHOuD8zpkcAshmWgoX7Mz9HB3JMrJq3BRwkVhtGa0pOU8w9O_mXSVMYJsHO-CtlT519uf6WmDyVnJO5zRT7k0nddXOJX6jAE9Wbc4-L7JRX9Rndl08PsUV5TWjLGpG-uduAXIX3gScgpM7UWmZhl1PPxyi7kqKM9qeToYcGPY8Rc6fsLRPYUv6tBtJqlAXIDMEEKOvq4mrsrn6BS1OZyfewq_uqeKRDa6Wd2IkxVKEVdZVr7U9iXIu8QrUkQEeBvC48AEN4CL5jdQ=w1608-h1073-no)
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There is not a rubber coating, the entire thing is made of natural colored Urethane. Then it was originally finished in a flexible paint.
If you strip it or use media you can blast it off, then if there are cracks in the urethane it can be ground out and all repaired using 3M or Lord Fusor automix flexible parts repair, then prime with Spies Hecker flexible primer and shoot the base then clear with flex agent added.
I *thought* I recollected seeing an original which was torn apart once.. didn't they have a metal reinforcement/insert?
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Well yes, however the OP seemed to be asking about a coating, there is a METAL STRUCTURE, however it is not a METAL BUMPER with a thin coating, there is a metal structure with an injection molded urethane around it which makes up the BULK of the actual bumper.
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Yes, that is what I recalled seeing... Thanks for updating your response and clarifying.. :)
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James have you ever had an issue with the very ends of the endura bumper flaring out? it seems the bumper on my white car the ends are not tucked in real close to the fenders like it shows on the finished pic of the silver car. What would be a remedy for this?
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James have you ever had an issue with the very ends of the endura bumper flaring out? it seems the bumper on my white car the ends are not tucked in real close to the fenders like it shows on the finished pic of the silver car. What would be a remedy for this?
FIRST OF ALL - this is all assuming you have OEM parts (INNER AND OUTER BRACKETS ALONG WITH the BUMPER)
IF you don't then it is difficult to diagnose as there are a couple of different repro bracket sets and bumpers.
Assuming OEM parts -
Yes, I have had them hit in the center and it flattened the bumper- spreading the V out thus making it wider.
Not tucked in real close...
Like how?
They do not fit and fill the fender extension recess or
Are they PROUD/outside the recesses?
Here is a photo of a unhit original paint endura... where does yours differ?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/svAtbwCUArmmYsROU6rUgoMAf4TNrd_pTHJidAbpS_D8gYVwRFdNPZP0Uxy9RHqccpY99LdlSgAQHnn8XiytmqlepiuDy9JWKkkDLR7b9LWV_ZHe0xIq2Wq8vxIhlnxQOH7ZyS3hu3k0IcvP7l-N64_jKFGpVsiA1D-uoC18lgTFOOqnWBBl6vpvvupxdZwqmZ6y8zfHRcC-cT5lYTPRLL6hkPCCjlFl2_PR1HKF3Y1Cc1BKZIwMkcc-JGtpusD3QvvUn4hFsCROHJT1oFMWja4Mj5VV2UrqKdre2ykhFCyo446IUbFZy11vYSB4YagTTa20M07XUXcUzd70hSumY8l6soM4ZSRV1PnvjATVbw-loT_z2LOjKutelWGFjbA6E2uTCoHies6pzDAHRFyGi-pdOvERANVKyMCQyKbfvtR8ZR8S8fLP0B1B8GRjABx2w6iEnnDG-J6NzxF4BtpKm-M-bppm9zh79e14wegTJQ3RRaGMS48yot6NhNWkiU-ftb2XWAC3_5ttMAfyXMinhjItSw0ut4PSB0N9GemHNtus3V8K0n9VISYu2Hs-yGEdMOqWk4KiywF5gdzT9w5rhZvUajJyi2o_1UkJXcs87C2PEO4jL_NeCgO4D0q6PbGGx89nvhCfgY2-hnKbUg-dVmRkoBzX8YdMX5FsS0UWR0ePgO_Q8nQNP8Pr-SmUBDWqzKj4CrAEsQ0A24ZqZnQ=w1524-h1143-no)
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Well if you look at the black car, at the very edge of the bumper where it wraps around and meets the fender. It is sitting further outside the fender, compared to the silver car pic where the bumper tucks in real nice into the recess, and appears to be flush. Here is the right and left side of mine. I believe it to be original bumper and hardware.
So is the black car more of a unrestored period correct version of the way it left the factory? and the silver car a spot on over restored example, because it fits so perfect?
Only other thing I notice is the contour (the outer most point of the bumper)on the silver car, actually curves in more toward the center of the outer grill shell, where on the black car it appears to follow the natural curve, and meet right where the inner grill and fender come together. (But it could be just the lighting that is making the silver cars bumper look like that?)
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You may me picking nits on 'production tolerances', Austin... There are several adjustments/tolerances involved in the difference you point out (and your photograph is from a different angle than the other car pictured)...
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Here is Dave Beem's old L78 VE3 Survivor
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/PyrRDsr0K_1mowFjZmdN1vgUZfcGr6MSQ5aU4hILnbs7fBAnoVz6ENDEVzw61fYNSnDeg43zK1rlLPByqxN1I-qbZ9tjEazNpuw0jh6SXwBeHfYsQSQ2AIfVO2h0Tp5WDmbuM2wTu960VTiTV63nD0Oa_s7mNXrX8WmuFTCB9qz0v1fO-Ln0QEQjzhdB1nMLRoHgiipwMaZU6TdVqy7KNJdIrc7AAMWvgSh6EY8nMymslkRAzz0xj9P_mnrlpBxphXV2vgEur4iKFNU_75ecp-HR32Dwj4NZd2v-lU-hF0-TDeJEVAy1svy56A_xC3ZigXcRuNg7bSyNZPRVJcUhLP71meReDxJCZVsl7ZdZW5JSKHtlwKuc3E3AeDhkkXxfdIZNd7ORA4LJXOKzrc1pxMwIuy0GYFFTrmPog9JiwVnrKErwqayvCUr6zkohcG-_Men3g0om9kLaryFDLqObDcpgXLKdn_Yf3InpgUIY2MQ_bmzL2BJA0BFsof7mJW7Z2gN22-LKlDY7Qbt5LCAD28pXn9pnskp8e1Gg601Kc2AAYVPvENHN_KmNnap_tBmI6tJWcSjAOaViKM1xcNwpJtLyaRyDfj-E0DSYyFiJn4h6NjtM2BRxdfMjyE5_Xu81F_rIVDC-BPY4xdVP5BhGdOK2kg=w762-h1143-no)
And here is my old 69 Z which has a repro endura which I reshaped and added flexible repair in order to make it fit like the one on the black car.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Xx7YXrm9LC-97mbCtk-SkcPtbsPMhbQ3l0JG0FB7wmac89mGFtBmakieDu6abXzgkwAYzcUscAwoYMDtPgpVFfKWYoXsCvPokEdWlo-uETk7r91nVUc2qhcxQFYYGNnEDXDNiMTVcSszebqYfi39NwQUhAUVwzIXMNa-Wnifkxm9ooyIiWFDNSKaQDusBXpIggmlYjfM66pCWANBMPEWVJERreiyb1s2LbP9k433Fe2-jRnmvqHC0kqUndX3E-K8A73030-FV8wtgCdBXv4Ke_vVJAaI_upxAyILP3TQGt8hCF6r63btXMOm9HrtYwEGV3FDbP_Hh6WgLouBPocWlUkvvchtgiWNoQkqNLozuKkKjxx2l-AzoYnWjXy_h0QlumJ4KLbnnUc9BN1aX7mAh989rS7WfLoKqxLVZB2BS7Ek23ADwZtU2RPmsE5XO60GJ0KZz-nSg30zuKfnRq3e0I6tf4QrQ8At48njzB16vOzJshLmiRUOY9JzweH9_YYZiGo0fiHWxsOw1IoI-eewaG9gte0bxn1AMcZGTRwVQEjVOLOc8ZaCB7RTCwEl1oXxiBwlxCzW3HhjWQKxTus-Fo9il2gX7Fx5YUGLKFXan_qwflTgYVmtVFDJDBbPpTo1rKjUQScolhdhbwjFMMeBMtNuUOVb67Hip7e-Jnpyfo_9su8rWDKXo3s-Z0SqR735bPUlerHmgnACL6Pc6jI=w1608-h1098-no)
Then here are TWO of Mark Bulaw's Original paint Low mileage Azure Turquoise RS/SS 350 -
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James have you ever had an issue with the very ends of the endura bumper flaring out? it seems the bumper on my white car the ends are not tucked in real close to the fenders like it shows on the finished pic of the silver car. What would be a remedy for this?
FIRST OF ALL - this is all assuming you have OEM parts (INNER AND OUTER BRACKETS ALONG WITH the BUMPER)
IF you don't then it is difficult to diagnose as there are a couple of different repro bracket sets and bumpers.
Assuming OEM parts -
The part about OEM brackets and bumper is very true. I can't say all of the repros are junk, but we went through this a couple of years back in depth here on the Forum, looking at construction and appearance - the fit of repop bumpers and brackets in conjunction with each other is a nightmare for some people. Hopefully the construction has improved for both, but make sure of what you're dealing with before going too far. The ends of reproduction bumpers do not match the originals without some modification -
Regards,
Steve
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Looks like the grille and fender are not quite matched in the area around the point....
white car has an odd gap between the bumper and the lower edge of the grille.
The area point to needs to be flat across the bottom into the grille recess and the fender recess or the bumper will contact the PROUD areas before coming to rest flush with the top of the bumper up to the bottom of the grille/fender point.
I PROBABLY SPENT 20 hours fitting the endura to the Blue Car.
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Wow, that is a decent amount of time. I see what you are talking about. I will look closer at the brackets. I purchased the car with the bumper mounted already, I am going to see if I can raise it more into the recess, and see if it is not as proud. The guys that assembled the car, did so in a fast and expedient manner. There were there areas where they did not show attention to detail.
Thanks for posting all those pics James. That last pic of that blue survivor, is amazing on the fitment.
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Wow, that is a decent amount of time. I see what you are talking about. I will look closer at the brackets. I purchased the car with the bumper mounted already, I am going to see if I can raise it more into the recess, and see if it is not as proud. The guys that assembled the car, did so in a fast and expedient manner. There were there areas where they did not show attention to detail.
Thanks for posting all those pics James. That last pic of that blue survivor, is amazing on the fitment.
Your grille needs to be fitted and then of course painted white...
remove the grille run double masking tape on the fender header lips etc then figure where it needs fitting,
Once I eliminate all interference on the perimeter - I rework the outer grille edges to fender openings lips using a heat gun or if it is warm out side - 80-90 you can use a hair dryer or a halogen work lamp and slowly soften the grille edge lips where they meet the fenders and then mold them around make then better fit the opening - then I use a file to taper the lip to the fender.
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You sound like an artist when it comes to proper fitment. I think you need to upload a tutorial on youtube for such fine craftsmanship.
After finding millimeter bolts, chrome bolts, and even a wood screw, I am afraid of what I may discover if I remove any grill areas. I did notice the other 2 brackets for the bumper only have 1 bolt a piece in them where it looks like they should have 2.
I will likely dig out my assembly manual and see it how it comes apart to loosen, and then try to follow your steps.
Thanks James
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I will tell you that you can add material where EVER you want using 3m auto mix flexible repair - rough it up using a RASP clean with ACETONE and then apply where needed, it will not break off or crack if you prepare the surface properly. I think I used 2 complete automix sets for the reproduction bumper below...
You can see the rasp marks in the bumper and the 1/2" of additional material I added to the "wings".
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OhUAdqEbD_mpwmtwNN4oIkAaxobuDVukyWF3IqjEBP3dXV5BE3agy9EiitKI108pHQ2Sa_ZvIIOM-jCeOtO_eVxauxZsdmM8FcSUaRn5XI6LSUcJcdtD8SEbmAzRW68Zb10y2L_V1tD-NGy9hXXt-ZCMXiY3F4j0X3b4kurSYPRJnopDYeBZK6MjKqzGQ-y_YtfJQnzypX14-8lSpktLe6rR_1BMZfXOpF_Jvbz9OWTyaPSpBA1EGB4MWb-m651Aw3-TcKd3ntwDZF5UPznlaOYqI0JF2CPytNQOyTQ05JU6JjjSmKNkT6ETlnE7rPS0x3n7fl1iebih2DGR9jhGX5pgHM4fKIWJ_IkPlezzdhykrDFwIWe8v9T-YpI1gJDdilidMaS8HUSrJAJ62QeIXUxvKR9TuvibvZRHtIEjTZGzTQyQRJ3NHGPNrxVyYzeq0yAKYZmZ0CFbkJUChQDMLl0IickDF1lOVzIBYHo1nMtauP1HeQBpCdIdweQyoUmUymOL5uem0Z4cuFUP-4cvqeEpbQ8QcgSSYxnglqSOyJmB1Jt94BiUo4qciMqbDeV2s6Xs_RS9sy_xsnx4oaHbwnu_R8FJMY0_A_15FWv33IsPBFMc46oeQb2O4fiwi4MgX78n7VKsMS21JAM1phuuQTs9mg=w1539-h1154-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/fW9tS674JVWCEFJxFxZG-qx7UT5iAKO6lVPAWJz8DP8OT16ein2kJ1Pe7m8c33l10ZyJqq_9ntihRpT1iZpIbiRxmmUX-tOuqhej-c7hz6emCaDcGVdYgbYFIWTR2SFO-kQtevHbQ1knuZCLsXISxfh-od0G5BkgsDTPQTF0yNZF5TNMK_7KSNxkvxLq15JnNeQORV5md1_zKVNwxPM_C15uv2REkkfhYPU-peNOPkEgJTvWxFQAZ533DHiPgk8DODtckPKwvD0Adixdd3vLvNOxd-D8sNuLciHv2BzilWly15-f7QUpOpJ3dI4S2GYlpc8Oe3UGJC7m2hZkjOw1paNoZlXRqXr-Mc9MHCa1X7aI59-dzTrtJ39Dc_ti6n9_LOX3MyRzffx3iaE4Sn4D2niuE0wPd_NJi17dKdwiN6rMxFTkqej_nc-PzprHteH7tfCPVixcz8lQycCxvxHSIyDBSuPKcbZO09iw7Ok-ReHXsZV0ngKQvwC3uxrfkNI6xIhDs3JypelYtm7l2mYCUm_FBCF7qsUjMYUldWHbwL_rTR3AvkOqlWgAuqfemfP2WdT54pZ06WjsX4JQB2RS4SmqOFXHE5wk5RRdbiqOzwZCfIoCZpXTadG1_Hv5oM_nkC3UEWgN1o7JuM8f4h8QTNvapA=w1538-h1153-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/S8Awnx07NtUAhd4lWE8k1CPoBqyPYIWyGFHZV4hV-XQ1V-7I3qGUxvQQrxioVUHtN1ev2zdcT6mbvEJXiyjzumynlgWKuTpKcsUkK29JJYWXXAhCNuE13C5WP1nIY9bwqRNxp5I-FJLjKKYHUXdiE8CEzYEeWUljqvBaaSnNVScRVEa4TnbCwyduzpAybuz1U3Dsyf5sbQpZayMzoqaAj_fwIIFoujXT58C38-Urx2n6HFcbI-r-A1D4dp819LpP3exgDxnGDDcSZOvVUWS99vf3WiH2ayjwaclJMBX8Kbz3Gg88JZtMl10pGlOJrYsZBWCr_faUPKoBw_RbcQ7mOVHxtBSzu1ANQHaY_KkdrZc-Jxsqagq9OzCtHdDTEbWVC3CEWt4Oy3B9ywmXZKF7eARmwGPQRTKeTTZ_g1PEJ6kTsEJVjW0Z0LT5HiyCu7X5Ij7IzOSdB9XWlYXfhj2rh5U90DWYyqlG3HhPnGTnxP4haERSuTh9zBJ8YpMGSD0JJtmIwb85EPm_I6QBd_Ht48NT5a2cB9tR9dvO0AXctIqYt1VMt6QSzuypODA2Da-YZmTCzB2RwTAMTXOm3pBNW5iHZlaU7FqQfuU20QENUotKI5G6vAlqcdnJEYxc6YfMy7gCRQW0ErUaiFt5FR_nsCrwWA=w1538-h1153-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/2wLOMVI82A_dW1ZtyM06k25Cc8dA2dSe2Pz5Xv-AUWmo_epQOwjv1cI-tGkSmwUPM9a1hb8OxlHjlMhM0yygZQF00qyZPa_66bU_U5s4tH3ezewE_hq_NICf8NXOiLO610rLBaJGEEGV_7YYniP34wQXLtnnqoOlUjZxuf39jujX3LZMfEvMMIpPIGDEZuUOX5yzrWCmiDvtYIq6DLXy7UY0mTnTNzeqdqFT_3NaNMnVemIs3hL4OfSwuJ-eV5cT-3YLYqUgmgnJ62t--nOSMhpoUVGZ6ztpDnP0KVDJ3reoKWu63u7KlKup263Apuxb0xCDbqd4JyaR6RbuhBIsAK4zyfN9H6iPitJS2ZllX3O7nXosOKfeNDQqPECOni8uJeJ4kxUPB-Kqw9OsMswbQFDFulF46eeHAE00hgvGf4kBxJrHO87Wwog9ULZItPX8LXwkkvejEJEJUT4V7m84xJTlmWwojy3ZQ4uGJxzKoCc7uxu0bnImDS6dJ5ax3YjHD7UJo4AZ48pAWbyZJn0ep4ICZqLiaLQ0x0QXouQZqHHBRvBJ2o6WeOUTO3Tn1QIvvaAdmzGi4gMcWuXCJKPqlu1oC4dIRB0aH7Sv7rE91e_qNB5t-2-9-QYHHlSVDj79H9JnkMcQUVP36UinZAh1CabI8A=w1538-h1153-no)
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Here is a close up from the Petersen group archive.