CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: VINCE Z28 on December 13, 2018, 08:15:51 PM
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Do we know of any 69 Camaros with L-78 and JL8 from the factory with docs?
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No. Of the 206 JL8 builds about 50 exist, few with docs. The only non Z/28 to date is an L65/4-speed. Very original when found but no docs.
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There's a fake L89 (now with a L88 I think) with JL8 that bounces around. 71-B, X22 D80 fake tag. Started life as a SS350....
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I've mentioned this before, and have intended to get with the owner and try to get some photos, but around 1978, a young fella came to my house after purchasing a used '69 Camaro SS (396/auto).. Not a bad car for the time (just used). I had noticed the advertisement which the local Oldsmobile dealer had ran, showing a '69 Camaro tradein for $900, but elected NOT to go check it out.. When the young fellas came by and I checked out the car, I was extremely aggravated that I hadn't gone to check out the car, as when I checked it had the JL8 rear end!! I offered him more than he paid for the car to let me swap the rears (his car and mine), but he didn't do it.. and before I told him, he was totally unaware of the disk brake rear!...
The last time I called him (he still has the car) he was busy remodeling his house and the car was in storage; I really need to call him again and if I'm successful, I'll get lots of photos and detail.. (There's NO doubt in my mind that it was an original JL8 installation!)..
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I think that we all hope that you will be successful.
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As a production option, JL8 included Corvette front brakes. Requires some rare parts to adapt. A production build would have 15" rally wheels. Chevrolet offered a retrofit kit to adapt Corvette rear brakes to the standard 12 bolt rear axle. It was for off-road use only; no provision for a parking brake.
By 1978 that car was nearly 10 years old. Anything could have been done to it. The JL8 option was released to production January '69 and dropped in June. Earliest known build was mid-February '69. If the car was built outside the February - early June time frame, it wasn't built with JL8.
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The two Indy 500 track cars, the one that paced and the backup car both came with L89, JL8 and F70-15 tires.
- Warren
Update...
Was just corresponding with one of the owners of the Pace Car track car. From what he understands, after the two Pace Car track cars were completed on the assembly line, they were shipped to Chevrolet Engineering where the JL8 parts were installed. So, I guess these two cars cannot be included in the 206 JL8s produced.
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As a production option, JL8 included Corvette front brakes. Requires some rare parts to adapt. A production build would have 15" rally wheels. Chevrolet offered a retrofit kit to adapt Corvette rear brakes to the standard 12 bolt rear axle. It was for off-road use only; no provision for a parking brake.
By 1978 that car was nearly 10 years old. Anything could have been done to it. The JL8 option was released to production January '69 and dropped in June. Earliest known build was mid-February '69. If the car was built outside the February - early June time frame, it wasn't built with JL8.
William, It must be easier for you to 'imagine' someone ADDING a JL8 rear, wheels, brakes etc to a 69 Camaro SS/RS 396/auto, sometime in the car's first 9 yrs, and THEN trading it in on a new 1978 Oldsmobile? (and getting less than $900 on the trade in)???
I couldn't imagine it then, and can't imagine it now! which is why I'm 99% certain that it was original to that car... I don't know what the young owner did to it in the last 40 yrs (but I told him NOT to modify it and to keep it as original as possible with GM parts - rebuilding the brakes), but in 1978 it had all the appearance of a 9 yr old original car without any work having been done to it...
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Would need to have someone knowledgeable about JL8 to inspect the 396/auto car. Back in the seventies era, there were plenty of disc brake rears that were pulled out of wrecked cars. The front parts are far more harder to find than the rear ends, as no one realized the front JL8 disc parts were different than standard disc brakes. That is why an inspection would be needed to confirm the 396/auto is legit.
- Warren
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Interesting that it would be a 396 auto car. To dove tail with the other thread about dealer orders getting cancelled. I wonder how many JL8 optioned camaro orders were never fulfilled back then? for such a small window and small production, was it worth the marketing value to have it as a option on the car from a business perspective? seems like it would have cost a lot to make up all the parts front and back and training to install , to be profitable for that small of a run.
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The JL8 option was predominantly for SCCA racers, who KNEW about it, and who could afford it...
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As a production option, JL8 included Corvette front brakes. Requires some rare parts to adapt. A production build would have 15" rally wheels. Chevrolet offered a retrofit kit to adapt Corvette rear brakes to the standard 12 bolt rear axle. It was for off-road use only; no provision for a parking brake.
By 1978 that car was nearly 10 years old. Anything could have been done to it. The JL8 option was released to production January '69 and dropped in June. Earliest known build was mid-February '69. If the car was built outside the February - early June time frame, it wasn't built with JL8.
William, It must be easier for you to 'imagine' someone ADDING a JL8 rear, wheels, brakes etc to a 69 Camaro SS/RS 396/auto, sometime in the car's first 9 yrs, and THEN trading it in on a new 1978 Oldsmobile? (and getting less than $900 on the trade in)???
I couldn't imagine it then, and can't imagine it now! which is why I'm 99% certain that it was original to that car... I don't know what the young owner did to it in the last 40 yrs (but I told him NOT to modify it and to keep it as original as possible with GM parts - rebuilding the brakes), but in 1978 it had all the appearance of a 9 yr old original car without any work having been done to it...
It's more a matter of hearing dozens of stories like this over 43 years in the hobby. Guess how many of those were verified.
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I can only imagine the stories over that duration.
50 known to exist, Is there any docs or POP's showing JL8 where the car is waiting to be found or known destroyed?
I have a neighbor (speaking of stories) who informed me of a 69 Z w/ 4 wheel discs that was totaled back in the day by a local guy. I told him to ask the guy if he stil had the paperwork. I'm not sure he took me seriously so I'm gonna ask again.
Gary, make the call! :D
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I talked about this years ago when I first joined this site. My old friend who lives down the road has a '69 Camaro Z/28 with JL8... KINDA!!
So he is a master diesel mechanic, working on BIG machinery. He gets a call from a friend who wants him to go with him to an auction, to help him access a new Cat before possible purchase. In the middle of the auction of tractors, caterpillars and the like, out pops a LeMans Blue Camaro. So the guy bid on it and got it for 13K. Then goes through a divorce and my friend buys it from him for the price prev. paid. Fast forward, I go look at it to decode it and it is a 6 Cylinder cowl tag. Story goes,... the original owner totaled the car, then went and found a complete car and put ALL the Z/28 goodies on it. Including the JL8. I drove it, it stops GREAT! But the engine, trans, hidden VINS are ALL mismatched. I tried to buy it from him and he doesn't wanna sell. Now it has been sitting stuck in 3rd gear in his garage for just about 20 years? BUT, he doesn't wanna sell it, go figure. Some day.. maybe in the next 20 years, I will go get the numbers off the rear. Cool car with rear defrost, 4 speaker stereo system, wood wheel, console gauge package, lots more options. If I remember right, I offered him 30K... Good thing, cause I only had 6K in my account... ;) Good Times Danny
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I stripped a JL-8 car in 1976. Car had had a very rough life totaled and rebuilt, then wrecked several more times. My brother and I bought the car for $1800 (borrowed the money from our Dad). I thought I would put the rear-end in my Z and sell the car, then I realized the whole front set was different. So I pulled the cars nose to nose and took everything down to the master cylinder. I took the brakes, my brother swapped the trans, heads and intake for junk stuff and we drove the car to Seattle and sold it to a dealer for $1800! Still running the brakes, long story, but shows how different times were.
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I bought my first '69 Z/28 July 1975. Virtually every '69 Z I looked at was already messed with. Rarely saw one with the original 302 even in those days. The car I bought was decent but had a 307. I swapped in a 350.
A good friend still has the '69 Z/28 he bought in '72. 4 years old and already had a 350, 10 bolt axle and a couple of repaints.
What's it like 50 years later?
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Yes, most Z28's got their engines replaced (and sometimes trans and rears) very early in their life; oftentimes because young drivers not familiar with what happened when you over-extended the rpms on a solid lifter engine!
I had several friends with Z28s in the '69-72 time frame while I was in the USAF (I spent all my free time in the base hobby shop working on my cars - '60 Chevrolet Impala, then a new '70 RR, and during the '71-72 timeframe I bought a solid Henry J body and put first a 283 /PG combo in it, and then in '72 due to the influence of my buddy z28 racers, I bought a '67 302 from a '67 Z drag car and installed that along with Muncie M21 in the Henry J)... During that time, one of my friends with an orange/white '69 z28 went thru several different rear gear sets trying to beat the local street racers.. from the 3.73 to a 4.11, then to 4.56, 4.88, and finally 5.38 gears!).. :) The fast fella in the area at that time worked in the local speed shop and had a '70 Nova 396/L78, 4speed that was drastically enhanced!).. :)
After I was discharged in '72 and completed my engineering degree in '74, I bought a marina blue/white '68 Z28 as my play car ( no significant options but had the original drivetrain which ran like a scalded dog!). Two years later I traded that to a policeman who had just purchased the '69 I own now. The '69 had all original components as well but the engine needed a rebuild; the advantage to me wtih the '69 was that it had many and some unusual options which I considered a step up in collector value over the 'base '68). I rebuilt the engine, and drove the car for 4 yrs before garaging it for a 'some year' restoration, which I later decided would have been a mistake due to the originality of the car!
Anyway, William is correct about *most* Z28's even in the early/mid '70's having their mechanicals 'long gone'; most of the Z28s advertised for sale during those years were also 'in name only' (ie. had the badges but not the bones).
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Year ago I got a call from a kid in Detroit about some parts I had for sale.
He asked where to get rotors. Anywhere. But these are the larger rotors. Yup, JL8. Prior owner pulled the axle and the 302. Was candy apple red, if it's still around....
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Know of 2 302's that went into other cars in the early 70's. One with a spun bearing in 1972 into a 55 chevy for a running 327. Bought my first car, 57 Nomad, in spring of 73. Guy I bought it from just bought a 69 Z. 302 gone, replace with 327. I don't think it took long at all for these cars to stray from originality.
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Yes many were modified early. About 1975 my dad and uncle went to look at a Hugger Orange 69 Z with parchment interior in KC. My uncle lived in the suburbs, we lived several hours away. Car was pretty original with the original engine and original axle. Trans was assumed original but partial VIN was not checked. Engine had a moderate knock, so not driveable for any distance. Car was in a bad part of town and the lady owner was a “dancer”. Dad tried to get the deal done on a Saturday, was told to come back the next day to talk with the boyfriend. My uncle wouldn’t take my dad back, and he had seen combat in the army. So that’s a hint as to how rough the area was. I don’t think dad ever forgave my uncle for not taking him back to buy the car.
Engine and transmission swaps were common. Axle swaps, not as much. If a car does not have its original 12 bolt axle it may have been wrecked.
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MOST of the 302 engine removals were because the engines were blown up, and the rebuilding expense was so great the owner just purchased another V8 and installed it.
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No argument there. But the little 302s were harder to blow up, compared to a big block.
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I disagree on that; *most Chevy engines* (whether small or large) that are 'blown up' are solid lifter engines that are OVER-revved (usually by inexpert drivers that are unfamiliar with solid lifter engines).
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I disagree on that; *most Chevy engines* (whether small or large) that are 'blown up' are solid lifter engines that are OVER-revved (usually by inexpert drivers that are unfamiliar with solid lifter engines).
Not to mention, the taller the gears, the shorter times between shifting. My car has 4.56 gears & that was different from previous cars I had with 3.07 or 3.31. Took a little getting used to. My engine was gone before it had 43k....Joe
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Right in that 1976 timeframe I went to look at a Z-28, engine out up side down on the carport floor with a bad crank. Car was silver, black stripes, radio delete with 30,000 miles showing. Had a few scuffs wasn't a garage queen, passed on it at $1400.00. Like to have that opportunity again.
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I remember being in Reno walking along Virginia St. This would have been probably in the late 1970's. There was a Jeep (Wrangler style) stopped at a stoplight. On the side right in front of the passenger side door it had a Z/28 emblem and a 302 emblem too. I assumed that with those it really had a Z/28 302 under the hood. I have thought since what a waste of a 302.
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I disagree on that; *most Chevy engines* (whether small or large) that are 'blown up' are solid lifter engines that are OVER-revved (usually by inexpert drivers that are unfamiliar with solid lifter engines).
You just want to argue. :)
Go check on that possible JL8 car! :)
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Good information but since my original post was on JL8 cars can we stick with that. Gary It be great to see if the guy with the JL8 car will let you get pictures. Vince
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I've tried several times since I relocated him a few years ago; tried looking for him many times over the years since 1978 until I finally found out where he worked a handful of years ago! I did talk briefly to him at that time, but he was busy on his house. I called both his cell and his home phone yesterday and left messages. I may BUG him at his work number tomorrow! :)
He was 18 and just graduating from HS when he bought the car; was heading to Auburn to study engineering. Now he's working for a company here in town and 40 yrs older! :) It seems he's not very involved in 'cars' right now.. but I WILL keep trying ... I didn't want to show up his door but I might even try that! :)
If he wanted to sell it (not likely after having it for 40 yrs), but if he did... I'd probably buy it.. (even though I hate big heavy engines!)... :) He may be doing what I planned... waiting to restore it after retirement...?
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Gary you'er only 70, out live him and buy it from this kids :)
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:) We each have to count our days one by one... :) (In 1978, he was 18 and I was 30).. he hasn't passed me yet! :)
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But Gary I think you have the fountain of youth in your garage. I am hoping to see your 69 on the road before his
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One more old story to add to the discussion - in the fall of '71, I was in college with limited resources (driving a '57 Bel Air that I had spent my high school years rebuilding), when a friend of mine asked me to take a look at a Camaro he was considering buying. He worked at a local store as a security guy - one of the store's employees (young lady) was selling her recently ex-husband's Camaro, complaining about poor gas mileage, manual transmission, and manual steering being too much for her as a daily driver. No joke, we pulled in to the parking lot at his store that evening, next to a dark green/white stripe 1969 Camaro, with Z badges and a set of traction bars leering from under the car. ZL2 hood, spoilers; upon popping the hood, the car was equipped with a crossram, and I remember the hood had a prop rod to hold it up (I don't recall if it was pinned). It was related to me then that the car was also equipped with 4 wheel discs, which I didn't inspect (I was much more impressed with the crossram setup). Car had headers, was very clean being only a couple of years old then, and supposedly was available for the first $2400.00 offered. I certainly didn't have that kind of money, neither did my friend (who was paying his own way through school), so both of us passed on the car. It sold immediately: I never saw or heard of it again. Pity I didn't think of writing down the VIN, but this was two years before I bought my X77 ($1600.00), and nine years before I realized what originality meant to original, high option cars (courtesy of Doug Marion and Super Chevy). A very similar combination of the options/color and counter parts appeared in Super Chevy in the 80's, also at Super Chevy Bristol and at other shows, but I had no way of verifying if it was the $2400 well-equipped Z from '71. Guess I'll never know for sure - memories are no substitute for ownership or documentation.
Regards,
Steve
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There is a 68 MO 302 sitting in a 1955 Cameo pickup out in Colorado Springs... been in it since the 70's...