CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: Tinkerr on December 05, 2018, 10:54:21 PM

Title: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Tinkerr on December 05, 2018, 10:54:21 PM
Looking for someplace to install my upper ball joint rivets. I live in Frederick, Md, can travel to Virginia or Pennsylvania. I called around today, 6 different restoration shops including Corvette restorers and all said they don't do them. One fellow only does them on his customers restorations, just use bolts is what I was told. Alot of Restoration Shops doing "Complete,Total,Full Frame Off Restorations", apparently all those descriptive words have different meanings.
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Camarocards on December 05, 2018, 11:17:12 PM
I had mine done by Bairís Corvette. They did a fabulous job. Hereís a link to a thread on the Team Camaro website which talks about the ball joint rivets:

https://www.camaros.net/forums/16-brakes-suspension-steering/456777-upper-control-arm-rivet-problem.html

Bob
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Tinkerr on December 05, 2018, 11:42:58 PM
I'll contact them tomorrow. I'll have to ship to them, they're 5 hours away. Anybody have anything closer to the DC metro area. Thanks
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: JKZ27 on December 08, 2018, 02:19:51 PM
Anyone tried doing these rivets themselves? I'd be tempted.
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: 169INDY on December 08, 2018, 04:38:09 PM
I tried to "TOOL" up to perform this task and failed -
Challenges, Sourcing quality correctly size starting stock rivets, Correct Tooling for "Backing bar" & "Buck"  driver for proper setting of rivets, Making a stable set up to crush aka set rivets,  was a big pain for just 6 pc of hardware, I went with ZIP products threaded rivets the Vette houses sell and called it good.

JIM
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Kelley W King on December 08, 2018, 04:50:38 PM
Are the replacement A arms that have the ball joints and bushings installed junk or incorrect? I saw one of the magazines put them on a 70 Chevelle. Looked like a correct part.
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: 68camaroz28 on December 08, 2018, 11:54:00 PM
Looking for someplace to install my upper ball joint rivets. I live in Frederick, Md, can travel to Virginia or Pennsylvania. I called around today, 6 different restoration shops including Corvette restorers and all said they don't do them. One fellow only does them on his customers restorations, just use bolts is what I was told. Alot of Restoration Shops doing "Complete,Total,Full Frame Off Restorations", apparently all those descriptive words have different meanings.
As Bob mentioned Bair's (Western PA) is a good choice and even though they are a Corvette house they do our A-arms as well. Another choice is contact Ken Lucas at Lucas Restorations as he has a source that does a great work and he's in MD.
http://lucas-restorations.com/
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Tinkerr on December 09, 2018, 04:40:07 AM
I'm going to ship them to Bair's when they come back from the powdercoater, $25 per-side plus shipping. That seems reasonable and they have a good reputation. I'm having second thoughts about the powdercoating though. It seems from my reading, the control arms were fully assembled, painted then the ball joint was installed. If that's the correct sequence my cross shaft bushing won't be painted. Were the bushings installed before painting?
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Edgemontvillage on December 13, 2018, 12:14:24 AM
I'm going to ship them to Bair's when they come back from the powdercoater, $25 per-side plus shipping. That seems reasonable and they have a good reputation. I'm having second thoughts about the powdercoating though. It seems from my reading, the control arms were fully assembled, painted then the ball joint was installed. If that's the correct sequence my cross shaft bushing won't be painted. Were the bushings installed before painting?

The control arm, dog bone (control arm shaft), washers, bushing retainer bolts and bushings should all be painted (30% gloss) once the control arm is assembled if you are seeking a factory correct look. The assembly was actually dip painted prior to installation of the ball joint by the original supplier however that's rarely seen and not very practical or cosmetic. Powder coating is also a good choice for durability. Good idea to go with rivets rather than bolts for the new ball joints - happens to be one of my pet peeves, rivets just look right on our cars.   

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/831/41181992795_d4487d9c7c_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/25K7tGx) (https://flic.kr/p/25K7tGx)  (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4889/32421494258_57acb30d1e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RoYCGj) (https://flic.kr/p/RoYCGj)    (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Sauron327 on December 13, 2018, 12:47:51 AM
There is nothing wrong or inferior with modern paint technology compared to powder coating. What do non-professionals think their brand new car is painted with? I have had to repair powder coated parts which was  no picnic. Powder coating can be stained and softened by solvents.  It also comes off with lacquer thinner. Urethanes are not affected by thinners; professional painters know this. I've painted frames and suspension parts decades ago that are not failing. Some of these cars are driven daily, washed, and driven in the rain. Scary experience for some.

They sell hardware for ball joints that have rivet heads which are secured by a nut if 100% accuracy is not a concern. 


Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: firstgenaddict on December 24, 2018, 10:56:20 PM
The correctly finished A'arms above have the incorrect bushings.
They should have a 3/16 exposed rubber lip on the inside.
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Edgemontvillage on December 29, 2018, 03:28:42 AM
The correctly finished A'arms above have the incorrect bushings.
They should have a 3/16 exposed rubber lip on the inside.


James, I have seen them with and without the bushing exposed inboard, what source are you referencing that states there is only one correct version?
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Hans L on December 31, 2018, 12:59:55 AM
Lloyd -

Here's the original upper ball joints that I had removed from the upper A-Arms.  '69 04B LA Build.   They were riveted in, so no reason to believe they were not original.   Only wish I would have just cleaned them up and left them in place. 

Hope this helps.

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9311_zpswufezyjv.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9311_zpswufezyjv.jpg.html)

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9312_zpsslxm3r3m.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9312_zpsslxm3r3m.jpg.html)

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9313_zps7flfgtp6.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9313_zps7flfgtp6.jpg.html)

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9323_zpsn6iceus4.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9323_zpsn6iceus4.jpg.html)

(http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/jwlittooy/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9319_zpsmfktdtof.jpg) (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/jwlittooy/media/Camaro%20Components/DSC_9319_zpsmfktdtof.jpg.html)



Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: 69Z28-RS on December 31, 2018, 05:56:02 AM
When I rebuilt my front suspension (~65K miles), the upper BJ was good so I simply cleaned them in place.  Here are photos showing the Ball joint and rivets from top and bottom sides.

Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: firstgenaddict on December 31, 2018, 08:26:24 AM
The ball joints were not in question...
They are the correct Stepped version which I have seen on nearly all 69 model and newer GM's. The bubble top version was not used after early 69 as far as I can tell. 
 (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7Ghr8p6WrcU5jfJhbxUPZl50R6SktbsFVwIi8N7aW47ebw5_bYwC3hihMWBgoy8NSrj1-Lv5HHLisq0WLnRb4RoJ7z4hOIs-8wyEZOv3O-R3AVTY3ysyp8iF6nNx1RxZ3OlLhGxnjTetBh-6BqPjHnxGKzzTmYKd-9yFrD7XYeeXe27FjosnyeqV2602geQDbHW-Yys-Ahmr51SkgVTMt4VF23pKxlBIFhD2FxHxr1NaeFlhI4PXoSiRSsN43AQP3F3nD_xihmRn6qWYBrJv7cPYpRBu8sviCsyBIyEPBpgY2Gw-46t3mrqj24mY8gBhfzpLpka7ME_MGwJbIeLAvr5t1UJk--duZY2i9k6Q0V0rUdF0-LHWMJtNsvx5Pk_Xm1j3ivkkT8_8nWI9LJ8T3A_5cWEghnqgyzWBqpHj5Bn7pheMYHpu5vsaqDHNnpgMFa45r3Mh_mIH3xtiGpvbVxqDwyoWhnrGxnKFqc2uf9wXSQjni7fEyOVpR305mf7jy19M6gPkSEjh6AAjg3eQ9DIX9iApZQH88_llDUg5LPJYL9ZoFpDAJusTHi9OCcVk9qlgpL9PKO1fPiHZzKU1BTmyzFVVfYbUAJZJoOf55zvvN7wfRZhJV7RD_ES8CfTLJxZ7nYv9Cd0OuRWnSmSBGEC3=w750-h589-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CtvNjoEIWi5S5hJBkyx9lY2ruDtGOh_BuEYDn_ocljPbEFRqb9V5r9azrULvnMVlFXkNLyRxUW6t6uHK4RGQlgn57rLMErZ-JnxmM2HVPpUm3U16RTRCwYP4IgZTvjV_JwoZk3At2pGQi7s-ZX1sjBgUrvXpviDu8IiONcxCPyqxjEfazpAsRJsfme0QP3ZO8X-ft6aw8SALBiJLpn5zLHuxYVfjtvJGTfmMy_8sjwQlc6VG12RtlMSnvHM18ExUWP9MYekWdFUCrM6vT-_ihiH5Vvw22rabWqD0TXUS_GUs84TJh4xjFn-3uUdg-u0AkytfeqeO-Z1qQAqnn6aQdwfc2o15eHxnbhcvFSloroUFzP0YYLy_P9cLVF1HUX9G1pdgESHul92zQOUNkTWztM6yXSseEX8tvU3heg-SJ8Aickl62quYwejoaj7zsnwRbto7BU6st2_vo4AuO2MK7fBIfAbGf-1mzd2knjkpqq5AYVysL_kuefsQUn-CyOyLsZEyHGgk2G7O2hScngZH6tanV9EukVpxAMjp0D4bf5vfu5CeYMHtknWoVUmNEUmiFhMjSqc2005JdtJj3cYxwUOT2UcZvpf437WNWS4jipwEC7kveUitfntL5ZGvn61f1B214gVjNjGLHEGCJigVEc7X=w750-h602-no)

The original HARRIS dogbone bushings have an inner edge which has 3/16-1/4" exposed rubber lip on the inside of the bushing. The correct appearing bushing is reproduced albeit without the HARRIS name (the name is not visible installed however the exposed rubber lip is visible.

pay no attention to the wire in the foreground... look at the bushing with the exposed rubber.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WCYP_Vwy1Tsu_4WxR56UB1LTdTpoSfKBB21m58sM9HhKvD-KyZHI1c-UkqNCRGjOulgDuQFIX5jTAVfBMSjS3mpUzElBjwXLJV3u_KfSJvwGi1gPISkcWzbnJsXK42BIx4rsaYTa2wQXFI1JkurNr6wphPpnKW6XIfN1k0njI17uMMwl9oIWf8lQ_SAqm1CfmvrwmDrINUKMN8Ja4yumDob0nkYhuPufxHGKYgz8jPwR5QApPJzcO33RAWxwXUONO-tax5h31ScG_kWmMtO59dj060H7UE1RzpsFp7pUVYwpMoGjwJzp0qY12UQMXOosuBlMmWPhCRHVWokXvfXKFHE22vXQj_pFEBTZwcm_Grhx5Wh8VM_FJ-8JWX7IVYD7c0OPYUE39FKzMv0mIxNURh1DIZZrkC-LBmr2hzJLO4o1YSsFVOSq0Ln_NB9W88fL1D5Pu_nXyhwFnI2aoLRAvjxdljAF3_U0cycOWfZwHV0FUuxUKJYPaK0JFOcFZShZMoZf6quuptCV6C3hKMiD-cIDJt5qGjlZ76mTR4MMpbKV1rIy1aBekM_im4wDyif0gfF5DSMxDI3V2Vjg4Mcn21vqi8BkeLbXIxJ8jdgjtYiI45TrYFLw5Rw0leoEwyTeNbCsvy4NEa56egyKL0qsjMaE2U4MiALbxYD9WcYcjC9c8ACzbM5H-UTFdDb9FejL0rvEWjZaHtBsGfIWzzI=w1524-h1143-no)
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Edgemontvillage on December 31, 2018, 10:44:31 PM
Here are photos of another control arm I restored for my project which I plan to use. Unlike the example I posted earlier this one is painted 30% gloss black, has the bubble top ball joint (PN 9740081) and inboard exposed (dog bone) bushing. I'm not convinced the non-exposed bushings are any more or less correct for the period however this one has the exposed version. I plan to remove the paint from the bottom of the rivets as they were installed after the control arm was (dip) painted and should be natural.

 (https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7877/31605959027_e100d5ec33_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Q9UNu4) (https://flic.kr/p/Q9UNu4)  (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4804/44728743180_07993e24bc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2b9wv2f) (https://flic.kr/p/2b9wv2f) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4903/32673679998_a2e2b837a4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RMg9Jj) (https://flic.kr/p/RMg9Jj)  (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7815/46546316691_5de2190961_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2dV93iz) (https://flic.kr/p/2dV93iz)  (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4885/44728743320_4dbf744775_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2b9wv4E) (https://flic.kr/p/2b9wv4E) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)



Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: JohnDS on May 07, 2021, 08:48:09 PM
Lloyd,

Greatly appreciate the detailed pix and information you've shared.
Regarding the black gloss finish on control arms, I was under the impression that these should have slightly more gloss than the Fender Skirts and Subframe.
What degree of gloss did you paint your Fender Skirts, Subframe?

Thanks!

John
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: tomstiel on May 11, 2021, 03:51:01 PM
I tried to "TOOL" up to perform this task and failed -
Challenges, Sourcing quality correctly size starting stock rivets, Correct Tooling for "Backing bar" & "Buck"  driver for proper setting of rivets, Making a stable set up to crush aka set rivets,  was a big pain for just 6 pc of hardware, I went with ZIP products threaded rivets the Vette houses sell and called it good.

JIM
I did mine with a hydraulic press and some scrap steel for backing up the rivit,,,easy to do
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: Edgemontvillage on May 31, 2021, 05:46:46 PM
Lloyd,

Greatly appreciate the detailed pix and information you've shared.
Regarding the black gloss finish on control arms, I was under the impression that these should have slightly more gloss than the Fender Skirts and Subframe.
What degree of gloss did you paint your Fender Skirts, Subframe?

Thanks!

John

John, just reading your post now. Having observed several original Gen 1 Camaros (and owned a couple) the gloss for most parts is +/-30%. Some parts require full gloss (IMO about 80% for modern paint) and others 60%. A list of finishes including paint gloss (incomplete) is available on-line. Specific to your question about the inner fenders and the subframe, I haven't noted a discernible difference in gloss levels. I used 30% gloss for both.
Title: Re: Need Ball Joint Rivets Installed
Post by: vtfb68 on June 04, 2021, 11:47:25 PM
Hi guys,
FYI, a quality truck stop/shop will be able to install these rivets as that is a common service item to them.
   VT