CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: 67jeffreyt on October 10, 2018, 02:08:22 PM
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Just curious what he has as far as what makes it rare, states engine and rear are factory matching and Muncie is not original matching.
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I always ignore these people. No matter what the FACTS say, they'll just argue with you.
My father always told me "Never argue with an idiot". I take that to heart.
Ed
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Oh I'm not gonna worry, I just don't know what makes him think it's rare, is it the rear? I honestly don't know anything about the 69 Camaro.
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So it's an lm1 car with the 350? Non SS with 12 bolt?
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Maybe it's my past Catholic school discipline when it comes to grammar......but I never could take an article or 'for sale' serious when I see blatantly bad penmanship. ;)
Mike
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He's trying to say the 12 bolt is rare. And it is, but there were way more than just 2 built. In reality, we have around 20 L65 cars in the database with the 12 bolt, and I'm sure there were a lot more. But his statement that "Very few that came 12 bolt" is correct. Bad grammar, but correct!
More info on this combination HERE (http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#12-Bolt).
Ed
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I see, thanks guys for the information, it's very much appreciated, I love to learn something new
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Rare - yes it’s an L65 car with a 3.31 posi. But the guy “needs help”. Bad.
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Odd thing is if it is a good body and has what he says, the price is not stupid.
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Odd thing is if it is a good body and has what he says, the price is not stupid.
If the body is halfway decent, and has the parts described, then it's probably a very good deal at $10K based on what I see awful camaros sell for....
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The car is very rusty.
Pulled out of a very rough part of Detroit, cheap. I am sure the previous owners would “not be happy” if they found out he was trying to flip it for 7x what he paid.
It’s a $5k car - max - in my opinion.
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Do you have a link to the ad?
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This is the one discussed over at sYc, bought in Detroit recently and now being flipped in Livonia via ebay and FarceBook.
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=150306
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I change my mind... :) The photos tell a different story than the words.... :)
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I am sure the previous owners would “not be happy” if they found out he was trying to flip it for 7x what he paid.
That 7x price reflects the additional "Hazardous Duty" fee for going into that neighborhood!!!
Ed
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Nice to see you guys talking about my car
You can say all you want you can assume what you guys want on how many were built the fact is nobody has real numbers the real numbers are what you have .
I was happy to hear around 20 but whats the real number anyone know dont assume many were made You have.no proof of that. You have what you got documented..
It doesnt matter what i paid for the car , it doesnt matter the condition the value worth more then you will dump into this car .. you cant replace this car its very limited to this date and they had over 20 years to pump the numbers up they havent sadly these cars are probably ss clones now.. but we can argue all you want but this is probably one of the rarest base mo model camaros ever . Its basically a detuned lm1 .. so tell me why would be a 1 in maybe 21 car be worth 5000 ..guy this is easy high dollar car .. go find one.. i can find z28 all day i can find a ss all day...but can you find this car.... nope...thats why its rare
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And ps the motor in this car would walk all over all the high compression cars with boost the lm1 and l65 compression was 9.1.. you guys got ripped off buying high compression motor that would blow up with 5 pounds of boost congrats
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This site used to have factual content from knowledgeable guys who owned unmolested examples that could be used as reference that would help guys, like you, who don’t know much about these cars, learn all that you could in hopes that with that new found information guys like you could preserve and authenticate these cars.
But now the site is becoming infiltrated with the lowest common denominators and is keeping the knowledgeable guys away because they just don’t want to be part of such nonsense.
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To the current owner, do you have any documentation that the rear end currently in the car was the one it left the factory with?
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It matches the vin
The rear end was built in January
The car was march
The date and numbers come back as a 3.31 12 bolt the lm1 offered. Thats enough to confirm
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People need to understand why they killed the lm1 its because they made car better then ss350. The lm1 sold over 10,000 cars in what 4 months in them 4 months what did camaro ss350 sell they needed to protect their flagship car ... its. Not hard to see that... the lm1 was threat to the ss killing it was only way the ss 350 would survive.. few cars of the lm1 /l65 car exist. Without guessing and assuming how many do you know that exist i have 1 how many do you guys have record of ??? Its safe to say its been 50 years and only numbers you speak seem to exist at this pacee in another 50 years you will have total of 40 lm1/l65 cars so yes this car is extremely rare maybe not be popular due to marketing , but if you cant produce number then as an expert you guys are full of it. Cause you cant say a lot or many without real facts and the facts you have are documented its not a lot so stop lying.
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Since the factory transmission is long gone I would think a mc1 Muncie 3 speed would be a better replacement. It is much more rare than the m20. Not more desirable though.
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It matches the vin
The rear end was built in January
The car was march
The date and numbers come back as a 3.31 12 bolt the lm1 offered. Thats enough to confirm
Axles weren't stamped with a partial VIN, the only was to be certain it's the one the car was built with is if you have documentation or the P-o-P which shows the axle assembly date and ratio; otherwise it's just a period-correct component, that could be OE to the car, but your speculation as to how the car may have been configured (uncommon or not).
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that car is SO rare, I think that only an idiot owner would want to sell it..... he should take his ads down and keep that car as it's rarity will just continue to increase... :)
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Didn't production of the lm1 end about Janurary 1st and was replaced with L65 and was pre X code.
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Didn't production of the lm1 end about Janurary 1st and was replaced with L65 and was pre X code.
Interesting observation, Jim. I see the TT is a 03D & X11 and the link Ed posted showed the LM1 "to 12/31/68" and the L65 starting from 1/1/69.
I would speculate the car may have had an L65 or L48 in the 03D period. At least the 3:31 would fit the L48 combo. Without a PP there is no way to be sure.
Mike
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It’s probably an L65 with the correct 12 bolt. Not common at all, but of course rarity does not always correspond to high dollar.
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Bryon,
Per the link Ed posted, the 3:31 wasn't shown with the L65, that's why I'm leaning towards an L48 (which shows the 3:31 as an option).
Mike
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Mike,
Kurt can correct me if I am wrong, but that table does not have the 12 bolt ratios listed for the L65. The performance ratio for the 10 bolt was 3.36 - so the closest to that would be 3.31 with a 12 bolt. Engine block in the car appears to be an L65 - original to the car.
I have learned a few things about the L65 cars in the past few months. And that’s good!
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Interesting about the 12 bolts, Bryon. So, I guess you "guys" aren't "full of shit" after all ;)
Mike
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I personally have learned more about camaros and GM from this site than anywhere else. If examining cars that are listed on public sites brings forth knowledge that I want to hear then so be it. If someone does not want their item discussed then do not list it on a public site. Even this discussion has shown me things I did not know. Thanks guys for sharing your extensive knowledge with me.
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The car is very rusty.
Pulled out of a very rough part of Detroit, cheap. I am sure the previous owners would “not be happy” if they found out he was trying to flip it for 7x what he paid.
It’s a $5k car - max - in my opinion.
Low production numbers doesn't equal value. I saw a 1969 SS Olympic gold, brown top, medium green gut car the other day. Probably a very rare combo indeed. Not on the most desirable lists of color combinations so not it's not bringing in top dollar. That being said, there's a butt for every seat and I'm sure this car will sell. I'm wondering how high restoration costs would go?
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Interesting about the 12 bolts, Bryon. So, I guess you "guys" aren't "full of shit" after all ;)
Mike
Well, At least not ALL of the time. ;)
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Tag is 03D - axle is BS0318G1 - Engine code is HF
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I've not been on the forum of late.
#1 - Lsp3rd1982 - stop the swearing and the attacks or you'll be banned. It's not acceptable on this forum. From your posts, you still have a lot to learn about 1st gens.
As I've told the seller, the car is uncommon. L65 with a powerglide and 12-bolt.
Most buyers who paid the $20 for the L65 also paid the $25 for the better trans (TH350). The base engines often had the powerglide, not so with the optional engines. The 12-bolt was just a lucky substitution - there probably was a supply issue in this timeframe.
The L65 was a low-po engine, one step up from the 307. Good engine, but not a powerhouse, so that rant about it is off-base.
The 'rarity' of the car would be a conversation topic at a car show. Doubt it would show in the value other than the 12-bolt value. I highly doubt anyone would restore the car back to original. Most buyers would be after the body and axle and may not use the original engine, IMO.
Personally, I'd use the original block, build it like a L48 with a 200-4R trans. :)
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I agree Kurt. Restoring this car would cost to much for the end value. Good place to find a 12 bolt tho
No place for name calling for the amount of knowledge here that is openly shared.
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My posts may not have been very clear. Kurt made it a little more clear, but MAYBE I can make it crystal clear.
This car, with the L65, normally would have received a 10 bolt axle.
It actually received a 12 bolt with 3.31 ratio as a substitution, probably because either
A. The car was ordered with the 3.36 axle and that ratio was not available at time of assembly.
B. The car was ordered with a 3.36 axle AND a posi, but a 3.36 posi was not available at time of assembly.
B is more likely in my opinion, but A is possible.
Axle substitutions were not common, but they did happen. I had a buddy in high school who had a gold 1967 Camaro with a 250 six cylinder/manual 3 speed/12 bolt with 2.73 and a posi. Normally that car would have received a 10 bolt, but it got a 12.
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If it's OE to the car. Presumably the '20' or so that have been documented thus far means there is, er, documentation, rather than just that the dates are correct?
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Tim, yes there is rock solid documentation that SOME of the L65 cars did receive 12 bolt axles.
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Thanks Bryon, I assumed that the informed commentators on this particular car were basing their replies on other known data points around similarly-equipped Camaros, but (as a broader question) see a lot of reputable appraisals that state rear axles are 'original to vehicle' without any documentation, and would think it's a stretch to say anything more than 'correct assembly timeframe' (or words to that effect). Obviously a genuine P-o-P or document provides proof, but without that...
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Yes POPs are solid proof.
For this car in question, or any car without a POP, unless somebody followed it around 24 hours a day and every day since the final assembly - we can’t say with 100 percent certainty that it’s original. But we can be “reasonably sure”.
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Updated ebay listing, Buy Now price has gone up from $10,000 to $15,000........
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Matching-numbers/163320925312
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He is dreaming...
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I live 2 miles away from the car, if anybody has a real interest in buying it, I could go and look at it
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It might be interesting to just go look since you are that close.
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Ebay listing says 'SOLD'......for $15,000
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I looked Tim, and I think the way that I read it, a Best Offer was accepted. No idea on what that amount was.
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Could be, but I thought completed listings usually state "Best Offer accepted", and this one said "Sold for: US$15,000" as screenshot below (scroll to right):
Anyway, will be interested to see if feedback is left for, and by, the seller.
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Kept it
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Bill does that mean the seller marked it as sold, without actually selling it? If so, they'll be charged fees on the 'sold' value.