CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: baldeaglemtnman on February 23, 2007, 04:54:41 AM
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Who do you guys use to insure your cars? I know there are probably many specialty classic and antique insurance companies to chose from but was wondering if there was one or two that are considered better or more reputable than others (or perhaps some I should avoid). Any names or suggestions would be appreciated.
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I use the same company I insure my other family cars with. It is insured as a "Collectors" full coverage and is limited to 6,000 miles per year, which is about all I can put on it here in Wisconsin during the Summer and fall months. It is insured for "Replacement Value Cost" which means what the market would bring at the time (hopefully never) if it is totaled in an accident. I have it evaluated every two years for this "Value Cost". My Insurance Company took pictures of the car when I first insured it. They were pretty through, front end and engine compartment, interior, rear end, trunk, wheels and full views.
Never really looked at or researched the specialty companies becasue I feel very comfortable with what my company offered.
dab67
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I use JC Taylor http://www.jctaylor.com/ (http://www.jctaylor.com/). Although I have never made a claim, my friend (w/ a 71 Camaro) has and did not have any issues. The price is great as both of my cars combined is about $500/yr for full coverage). They use "agreed value" and there is no mileage limit, but they do ask you to prove that you have a daily driver.
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I've used American Collectors Insurance for years. No problems.
http://www.americancollectorsins.com/index.php
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I used to insure my old cars through the same insurer I use for my daily drivers (State Farm and AAA). They too offfered a classic car policy but had much more restrictive requirements. Less thatn 2500 miles per year (not a problem really) membership in a car club, restricted use of the cars (club events, shows, maintenance)...also required pictures and appraisal and an agreed upon value (which, from my understanding, is better than the market value system as the insurer has less wiggle room - provided you keep on top of setting the argreed value to reflect current conditions at renewal time)...cost about $250 per year per car (had a multi car discount as well) for about $35K worth of coverage (three years ago) and a $500 deductible. All of teh above had to go through their underwriting process and be approved as a classic worth insuring...
I have since moved over to Hagarty Insurance where it costs about $200 per car (4 cars total - $500 deductible) with values ranging from $25K to $60K. No required club affiliations, no mileage restrictions (they do require that it not be used to commute or be used as a daily driver), very easily set agreed upon values and a fairly decent staff.
All in all I 'm happy wiht my move to Hagarty although I've not yet had to file a claim.
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Based on what I have read in responses, going to a "specialty insurance company" may not have any advantages over the insurance companies that would insure your every day drivers. I get a discount because I have 3 cars insured with the same company. The only real differnce is the restriction of miles (6,000) I can drive my 67. My cost is under $225 per year full coverage with a $250 deductible. with that said, I hope I never have to find out if there would be any problems if I had to file a claim. I have not had problems with any of my other cars, but then again, I've never had to file a claim.
dab67
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I suggest you all rethink your insurance.... at Team Camaro we get insurance discussions alot and there are major differences in how a conventional insurance company and classic company handle coverages.
State Farm and most others have typical coverage that WILL depreciate your values and in the case of a total loss THEY alone will determine what THEY think the value of your car was. They do NOT have 'AGREED' value coverage that is the backbone of the specialty insurance carriers such as Grundy, Hagerty and others.
Agreed value means that on the day of your policy issuance, you and they have agreed to its value, for example, $40,000 for my 69RS. They get pictures of it and I have certain things I must do, such as keep it in locked garage at night except when travel to car events/shows etc. If my car is totaled in accident or stolen, I get a check for $40,000 no deductions or negotiating at all. Period, end of discussion, I get a check for that amount because we AGREED up front as to its value.
If it was a State Farm policy, they would have gone to Ebay or other sites and found 'comparable to them' sold data and then after depreciating according to their policy, you would get a check for MUCH less.
I have all my family cars with State Farm, house, life, business etc. so I like them for everyday insurance but if you guys dont do alot of homework, you will get burned in the case of a total loss.
Instead of hashing and rehashing this, go to www.camaros.net and to the BENCH section and in the search box, type in insurance and read all the info. thats been put foward about this topic.
I can almost 100% guarantee you that if you are with a traditional insurer, you will not have 100% coverage for what your car is worth, if its totaled. If you think you do, write a short note to your agent, ask him to give you in writing a statement that if your car is totaled or stolen, that you will get 100% of the value you placed on it. I bet the agent wont sign it. thats my 2cents worth.
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good points Jim.
I have Hagerty on my '69, and its $239/yr. I have one car with them, have never been a customer of theirs, or any other collector car insurance company. I got the "Joe Schmoe" rate, per say; no discounts for multi-cars or being a long time customer, but no rate hikes because of a claim. They say that I cannot exceed 3,500 miles per year, and that it must be kept in a locked garage. The mileage does not bother me in the least because in Vermont, 3500 miles in a season puts it around 20 miles per day, if I drove every single day of the late spring, summer and early fall.
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I have a good relationship with my State Farm agent where I have my daily cars insured as well as by business policies. I spoke to him about it and he felt that they were NOT right for classic car insurance and said I should go with specialty insurance. Maybe he just has little experience in classic car specialty, but he does seem to have his act together in general. No warm & fuzzy feeling there...
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I'll chime in with my support for Grundy. My car was hit in the rear a couple of years ago while cruising to an event by a Ford Expedition. I had an adjuster come to my home and process my claim. I had a check in hand 8 days later and a repaired car 4 weeks after that. I was also told that if any unexpected repairs were discovered I would be covered.
Grundy is very responsive and they will keep my business.
Kris ;D
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You have a stated value policy unless your policy says this: (and only this)
"In the event of loss to a "your covered auto" described in the Schedule or in the Declarations for which a specific premium charge indicates that Antique Auto Agreed Value Coverage is afforded:
1. We will, subject to the applicable limit of liability shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations for this coverage:
a. Repair or replace the damaged or stolen property with like kind and quality if the amount necessary to repair or replace such property is equal to or less than the limit of liability shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations; or
b. Pay the amount shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations."
If there are any statements about depreciation, or "value at the time of the accident", the insurance company will find some comparible cars in your area (usually the ones with no drive train and missing the floorboards sitting in a marsh) and use that to establish a lowball value, and then they will depreciate it further for excessive mileage or some other factorsthey dream up you will be lucky to get a couple of thousand dollars out of the insurance company. Check your policies and read them carefully.
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I do not trust ANY insurance company. I have had prolonged dealings on more than one occasion after being hit (last time a kid ran a light). This was needed in order to receive fair payment - enough to repair the damage. I would lean toward specialty insurance for collector cars. Mine is not yet on the road. I would also READ THE POLICY. No matter what your agent tells you, decisions are based on the actual policy as written.
Tom
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As I stated before, with my insurance company, the "replacement value' is based on what that the market is at the time of replacement. if my car is valued at $30k and the market is $30k,then that is what I will get. If it is lower ( I doubt it) then that is what I will get. I guess it all depends on how much you trust your company.
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I've been with Hagerty for roughly 9 years...the underwriter is "Emcompass Insurance". It is an "Agreed Value" policy which matches my "regular" car coverage for liability/prop damage.
I've never had any claims so I cannot give advice about how they treat a loss.
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Dab I know you are trusting your agent/company but if its not "agreed" value, that language is extremely important, you will NOT get what you think you have coming. You will get what THEY think you have coming. If your car is worth $30K and if they can find a 'similar' car that sold for $20K, without seeing that comparable car to see if its up to par with yours, you will get $20K. It is their sole discretion as outlined by Mark up above. I strongly urge you to review your collector car with your agent again, and ask the question I posed in my previous post. Id hate to see you have a claim and find out the hard way. Collector insurance is so cheap compared to standard companies too. Obviously if you want to drive it daily to work etc etc then you are stuck with a standard insurance company and you will never recoup your true value in the case of a total loss. I have seen this happen to members of Team Camaro and its so sad and avoidable. Dont trust what you 'think' might happen in a claim, have your agent guarantee you in writing that you will get "TRUE current like kind value" or AGREED value coverage. If not, you are in for a world of hurt if the unthinkable happens. Those of us that post these thoughts are speaking from knowledge first hand. Have an insurance review with your agent and ask the questions to protect your investment.
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Thanks to all for the input and advice. My head is spinning. ::) How is the "agreed value" determined?
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You establish the value in an agreed value policy and the rates you pay are based on that value. Some companies require an appraisal to support the value that you want, others don't. Most will require a series of photos showing the car exterior and interior. I have Hagerty and I picked a value, and they aggreed with that value without an appraisal, so my value must have fallen within an acceptable range for what my car is. I need to boost the value this spring when the car hits the road again.
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I have Haggerty ins on my vette.. i have a mileage limit( i think 4000/yr) and i can't use it for work transportation. we agreed on the value based on a previous appraisal and fresh photos.. we were out last summer and the rf brake was dragging..(brake hose collapsed) we called and they sent us a flatbed.. in about an hour or two we were home.. we learned that it is a ten mile freebie.. but beyond that it would have cost me.(according to the driver) and i think i get 2 per year(not positive).
wally
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I have Grundy on my 5 classics no problems.
Click is 100% dead on with the agreed /replacement cost-Ask Your Agent and See for yourself :o
i just had a friend whose car was stolen and recovered only the shell-his regular ins company only paid him on maket
adjustment rate at time of loss for a bondo bucket in the auto trader.
I asked my friend who is a auto claims field adjuster and he says it is true.I also asked a auto claims company owner and he agrees also-you need speciality coverage.
Protect what you worked so hard for ;D
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A question and a comment:
Does anyone know anything about Infinity that just bought out Great American's Classic Collector's program?
As long as we're all reading over our policies (including those very important notes by Mark), watch out for "attachments" (those other pages or little pamphlets that they send along with your policy). There are all sorts of interesting attachments that limit the company's liability --even if you have a declared value. The most infamous is a "Lesser of" attachment (similar to Mark's note), which limits what they pay to a lesser amount --often tied to "Cash Value".
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You have a stated value policy unless your policy says this: (and only this)
"In the event of loss to a "your covered auto" described in the Schedule or in the Declarations for which a specific premium charge indicates that Antique Auto Agreed Value Coverage is afforded:
1. We will, subject to the applicable limit of liability shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations for this coverage:
a. Repair or replace the damaged or stolen property with like kind and quality if the amount necessary to repair or replace such property is equal to or less than the limit of liability shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations; or
b. Pay the amount shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations."
If there are any statements about depreciation, or "value at the time of the accident", the insurance company will find some comparible cars in your area (usually the ones with no drive train and missing the floorboards sitting in a marsh) and use that to establish a lowball value, and then they will depreciate it further for excessive mileage or some other factorsthey dream up you will be lucky to get a couple of thousand dollars out of the insurance company. Check your policies and read them carefully.
Reading my policy....it says this for "limits of liability".
A. We will pay the limit shown under Coverage D in the Declarations for each scheduled vehicle, which is agreed to be the value of "your covered auto", in case of a total loss or "constructive total loss". "Constructive total loss" means a loss where the cost to repair damage to "your covered auto" will exceed the agreed value of the vehiclewhen fully repaired.
B. For all other loss or damage to "your covered auto", we wil lpy the amount necessary to repair or replace the property, whichever is less, provided you actually repair or replace the property, with similar kind and quality, without regard to depreciation or betterment, but we will not pay more than the agreed l imit per vehicle shown under Coverage D in the Declarations
There is an "Agreed Value" listed on the Declarations page
Does this sound right?
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Yes, that's "agreed value" coverage.
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Yes, that's "agreed value" coverage.
I figured....but it's been so long since I signed up...like 10 years ago, I just wanted to make sure. Thanks. :)
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I have State Farm and they do have agreed value. I have my 69 SS RS insured for $55K with them. It cost $19.00 a month with $250 deductable collision and $100 deductable on comp. and all the high limits on liability 100/300K. Same insurance on my 94 ZR1 with $35K and it is $17.00 a month. It shows right on my policy the insured value of the car. All I had to do was take pictures of the cars and give to agent. No appraisal at all.
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The problem with companies like State Farm is usually the agent not knowing what you are talking about. (BTW, I have had my other cars covered by State Farm for over 30 years.) Some agents seldom get a classic car request, and they wind up not quoting it right.
Still wondering if anyone knows anything about Infinity group???
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lcmc Im about 99% certain that you DONT have agreed value insurance with State Farm. I use SF for all my other cars and house etc. but they DONT have agreed value coverage for collector cars, rather they use terms like 'we agree' but that is not AGREED value coverage. There are other lines in your policy that give them the right to choose 'lesser' value 'comparable' cars to determine final value in case of a totaled car. Visit the Bench section of www.camaros.net Tech Forum and search using the word 'insurance' where we have explicit decoding of SF and other policies, much to long to go into here. Just a heads up and hope you dont have a claim while you research this yourself. Ive had VP's of SF email me and after a few back and forths they finally say that they DONT have 'agreed' value coverage like other collector insurers.
Lakeholme is right that most agent dont have a clue what Agreed value is, they also are duped by the word 'agree' in some of their fine print of their policiies.
Go to your SF agent with a simple statement and ask him to sign it, saying that IF your car was stolen, would you get a check for the $55,000 you have it valued at? No deductions or depreciations, no comparables to other cars listed on ebay etc... plain and simple, do you get $55,000 in your hand, yes or no? Then have him sign it..
I know what his reply will be but this is all good info. for folks to have.
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Click......I will question my agent on all this, however he is a car collector himself so I'm thinking he knows what's going on. I'll keep you posted as to what I find out.
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I have used State Farm for all my insurance needs---cars, homes, toys--- for over 30 years and for the most part they have been great whenever I have had a claim. But after reading everything you guys have said, i will RUN to a specialty company to insure my car. I'm so glad I asked.
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Click,
In certain states, State Farm offers a true 'Agreed Value' policy, IL being one of them.
I pursued this, it is not offered in MI.
I have Hagerty. A friend got hit and Hagerty paid, no hassles.
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Interesting Kurt, we've had lengthy discussion at Team camaro and input from SF vp's and if they have true collector car Agreed Value, its unknown to the folks in SF corporate that we had emails from. They are in ILL. corp office too. hmmm? any chance you know someone with the 'agreed' wording in Illinois with that coverage? Id love to see the exact wording of their policy. If a camaro owner told you he had Agreed Value but didnt really read thru his policy, he could be mistaken. Id really hate for anyone to be misinformed about such an important area of our old cars.
Many policies use the word 'agree' off and on but when push comes to shove, it always has turned out to NOT be AGREED Value as presumed..
I know Jody, one of our mods in Team Camaro also has strong views of this issue and we have 'saved' many folks from certain financial ruin if they had their car stolen.
Its always good to anaylize the exact wording of a policy, not just what an agent told us. :)
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I just spoke with my State Farm agent. He told me that the only type they write is "agreed" on collector cars. I asked him if my car were totaled or stolen what would I get. He said I would get the amount I had it insured for. The only time they pay less is if it can be repaired. He even spoke to the underwriters on this issue to confirm. He said that is why they take pictures of the car to verify the condition.
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Another thing my SF agent pointed out is that there would be no reason to put a value on the policy if it weren't agreed. They would just pay book like a regular policy. You can only put a value on collector cars. I insured a 94 ZR1 with them and put an agreed value on it. It came back and they said the car was not old enough plus the fact they were treating it like a regullar Corvette. My agent contacted the underwriter and told them it was a limited run car then they OK'd it once they realized what it was. This whole thing with agreed not being offered by regular insurance companies was started by the specialty companies cause they have a hard time competeing with the big guys.
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The ONLY way to tell if you have an agreed value policy is to look at the wording on the endorsement. Don't take your agents word on it, make sure you know what you have. If the policy says in the event of a total loss we will pay you the amount specified (and the amount specified is what you agreed to), or we will repair it with like parts up to the value of the amount specified then you have an agreed policy, end of story. If there is any wording in the endorsement about depreciating it, or value on the date of the incident, or the term like value is used then its not an agreed value policy. There are two examples of agreed value policy wording in this thread, what does your endorsement say?
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Whoa - let's hold on here just a second - and take Mark's words to heart - you can really get burned here if you aren't careful.
I have State Farm insurance on my house, my car, my wife's car and my two daughters' cars. I have my '69 RS and my '66 Chevellle insured through a firm that deals with nothing but classic cars - and for a very good reason.
Yes, State Farm will issue insurance on a classic vehicle per an "agreed to value". They even have run ads in Hemmings and other places touting their coverage.
The "gotcha" is that unlike my current coverage, which will pay the "agreed to value", in all cases, for either of my cars if they were in an accident, were totaled, and deemed not repairable, is that if you have a claim with State Farm, they may not necessarily pay the "agreed to value". What they will pay is the "actual cash value" or ACV of the car at the time of the claim. This is a subjective determination made by the State Farm adjuster. If in his/her opinion the ACV is less than the agreed to value, you will get less than what you were expecting. Point to remember is that, in all cases, from State Farm you will get ACV at the time of claim. Whether or not that will actally be what the previously agreed to value is will depend on the State Farm agent and adjuster involved. It is for this very reason that I have my '66 and '69 insured elsewhere.
In general, the folks that deal specifically and only with collector cars make it pretty easy. Most of those policies are set up where the agreed to value is what you get if the car is totaled and not repairable. In any event, make sure that you understand the fine print.
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Another thing my SF agent pointed out is that there would be no reason to put a value on the policy if it weren't agreed. They would just pay book like a regular policy. You can only put a value on collector cars. I insured a 94 ZR1 with them and put an agreed value on it. It came back and they said the car was not old enough plus the fact they were treating it like a regullar Corvette. My agent contacted the underwriter and told them it was a limited run car then they OK'd it once they realized what it was. This whole thing with agreed not being offered by regular insurance companies was started by the specialty companies cause they have a hard time competeing with the big guys.
That is incorrect. I have yet to see a copy of a State Farm policy that is worded like an agreed value from Hagerty, Grundy, etc. They all have the ACV/OR phrase. Here's a good link to the wording differences and you'd be smart to read the policy very carefully and see which way it is written.
http://www.faia.com/web/2005/08/stated_amount_vs_agreed_value.aspx
By the way, we've had a couple guys on Camaros.net that had State Farm "agreed" policies and lost/totaled their car. They did NOT get the max value of the policy. The adjuster found comps for less and that was that. An appraisal or whatever doesn't matter if they can find a "comparable" car (in their opinion) to yours for less.
Jody
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My policy from State Farm has no depreciation....I don't know what SF did to tick you guys off but I'm telling you like it is. The agreed value is right on the policy. My agent also told me to update the value as the market changes. There is nothing in my policy about Actual Cash Value. Maybe you guys just don't have an agent that knows what he's doing. Mine is a true agreed value policy.....end of story!
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My policy from State Farm has no depreciation....I don't know what SF did to tick you guys off but I'm telling you like it is. The agreed value is right on the policy. My agent also told me to update the value as the market changes. There is nothing in my policy about Actual Cash Value. Maybe you guys just don't have an agent that knows what he's doing. Mine is a true agreed value policy.....end of story!
SF didn't tick me off. Been with them for over 20 years, just not on a classic car.
Could you scan your policy for us? Every one I've seen in every state so far (including Illinois) says something similar to this:
Note: The amount shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations is not necessarily the amount you will receive at the time of “loss” for the described property. Please refer to the Limits of Insurance And Deductible Provision which follows.” Looking at that section of the endorsement, the following appears:
The most we will pay for “loss” in any one “accident” is the least [emphasis added] of the following amounts minus any applicable deductible shown in the Schedule:
1. The actual cash value of the damaged or stolen property as of the time of the “loss”;
The cost or repairing or replacing the damaged or stolen property with property of like kind and quality; or
2. The amount shown in the schedule.
That is the part that gives them the right to look for "like kind or quality".
Jody
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State Farm has not done anything to tick me off - as I said, I have 4 cars and a house insured with them. I have this discussion with my State Farm agent every year when it gets close to renewal time to see if anything has changed with regard to their collector car policy. State Farm will settle a claim on a collector car on an ACV basis - which may or may not be "agreed to value".
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I spoke to my SF agent again. He said the only time I do not get my agreed value is when the car can be repaired for less than my agreed value. If car is stolen or total loss I will get the agreed value. He is getting me a copy of policy and as soon as I pick up up I will scan it and post it.
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Danny Im not ticked at SF either, you misread that into our efforts to be 100% sure you are covered. We are looking out for your investment. I have SF for all my other insurance, my agent was groomsman in my wedding and I trust him totally, he even said, SF doesnt have agreed value like the classic insurance companies in Minnesota for sure. That lead all of us to scrutinize policies as the insurance companies really bury their words. Posting your policy will help us see what you are seeing and that can only be good for all. :)
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The coverage SF will write varies by state, perhaps due to differences in each state's insurance regulatory procedures/approvals; in Michigan SF does NOT write "agreed value" coverage, although I've seen examples of them writing it in some other states. A careful reading of the section of the policy that describes exactly what they'll pay in the event of a total loss (or related endorsements) will tell the tale.
Education here is important, as many enthusiasts have "stated value" policies, which do absolutely NOTHING for the insured, and those folks THINK they have "agreed value" coverage, and they don't.
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OK...I finally got the scoop from my agent. Here is where everyone is getting confused. He said that when they write the collector insurance it is with a standard policy, then(heres the important part) they issue an endorsement,6171AK.1, which supercedes the standard policy. That is where you get the agreed value. Basically he said it states that as long as the car is not altered from original condition it was in when insured ( like missing parts, let it rust and so on) you get the agreed value of your policy. He spoke with the adjusters on this also and they confirmed. He has a copy of it for me so as soon as I get it I will post it. I think this is why everyone is confused. They are not reading the endorsement 6171AK.1. Maybe some agents are not aware of this supplement and that is where we see the problems.
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By the way guys I understand your concern and it is appreciated. I just want people to understand my point also.....thanks
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All points brought up in this discussion are worthy of consideration especially the one comment from John regarding different laws governing different states. I think ( opinion) no two states have the same laws governing inusrances. Why? I don't know. Maybe wording and coverage have to do with population, climates, claims filed within the state etc etc. Are some insurance companies better prepared to cover specific needs? I would think so. Bottom line is if you research what you "need" and get that in writing with no "hooks", "bells" or "whistles" then everything should be just fine!!!!!!!!!!! I started having my car appraised every two years and update my insurance as such. My car is no numbers matching , original etc etc. but becasue of the value rising every year I have this done. I believe you out there that have true numbers matching and original cars are doing the same thing to be on the safe side.
dab67
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Jim,
I had confirmed that SF in MI is not 'agreed value' (as JohnZ also states). Then I ran across someone in IL that had SF with agreed value. Confirmed it was an agreed value policy. Asked my agent and he dug and confirmed that it was an agreed value policy in IL and I still couldn't get it in MI.
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Here is the State Farm Policy. It is agreed value:
6171AK.1 ANTIQUE OR CLASSIC MOTOR VEHICLE
This endorsement is part of your policy. Except for the changes it makes, all other terms of the policy remain the same and apply to this endorsement. It is effective at the same time as your policy unless a different effective date is specified by us in writing.
In consideration of the premium charged for your policy, it is agreed that:
1. COVERAGE UNDER SECTION I - LIABILITY – COVERAGE A AND SECTION II – MEDICAL PAYMENTS – COVERAGE C APPLIES ONLY WHEN YOUR CAR IS USED IN EXHIBITIONS, CLUB ACTIVITIES, PARADES OR OTHER FUNCTIONS OF PUBLIC INTEREST AND OCCASIONALLY FOR PLEASURE AND BUSINESS.
2. SECTION IV – PHYSICAL DAMAGE COVERAGES
a. Limit of Liability – Comprehensive and Collision Coverages
This provision is changed to read:
The limit of our liability for loss to property or any part of it is the
lower of:
1. the actual cash value; or
2. the cost of repair or replacement. The cost of repair or replacement does not include any reduction in the value of the property after it has been repaired, as compared to its value before it was damaged.
You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is the
vehicle value shown on the declarations page unless:
1. your car has been damaged;
2. parts have been removed from your car; or
3. your car’s condition has changed due to abuse or neglect
after the vehicle value shown on the declarations page was agreed to and prior to the loss.
If any of these events have occurred, the agreed upon actual cash
value is the vehicle value shown on the declarations page reduced
by the decrease in the value of your car due to such damage, the
removal of parts and damage caused by the abuse or neglect.
Any deductible amount that applies is then subtracted.
The cost of repair or replacement is based upon one of the following:
1. The cost of repair or replacement agreed upon by you and
us;
2. a competitive bid approved by us; or
3. an estimate written based upon the prevailing competitive price, The prevailing competitive price means prices charged by a majority of the repair market in the area where the car is to be repaired as determined by a survey made by us. If you ask, we will identify some facilities that will perform the repairs at the prevailing competitive price. We will include in the estimate parts sufficient to restore the vehicle to the pre-loss condition. Such parts may include either parts furnished by the vehicle’s manufacturer or parts from other sources including non-original equipment manufacturers.
Any deductible amount that applies is then subtracted.
b. Settlement of Loss – Comprehensive and Collision Coverages
This provision is changed to read:
We have the right to settle a loss with you or the owner of the
property in one of the following ways:
1. pay the agreed upon actual cash value of the property as
determined above in exchange for the damaged property.
If the owner keeps the damaged property, we will deduct its value after the loss from our payment. The damaged property cannot be abandoned to us;
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still seems iffy to me. My agreed value doesn't have the options like yours. It's pretty much
1. We will, subject to the applicable limit of liability shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations for this coverage:
a. Repair or replace the damaged or stolen property with like kind and quality if the amount necessary to repair or replace such property is equal to or less than the limit of liability shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations; or
b. Pay the amount shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations.
The above says they'll repair and/or replace the damaged or stolen items up to the policy limit, otherwise you get the value of the policy, period.
If yours is an agreed value policy it'll be the first I've seen, and I've had many people claim they have SF agreed policies in several different states and after further review they were not real agreed value policies. Yours may be, I am no expert.
Bottom line, the info is here in the thread and if you're comfortable that you're covered then you should stick with it. There was a SF agent on another board that insured his 69 Camaro through Hagerty. There have also been numerous brokers on the Camaros.net site that have also said that they've switched away from SF when their own underwriters looked at the policy and told him that he was not guaranteed a certain payout, and that SF held all the aces.
Myself, with the values of these cars I'm just not going to take a chance. If it was a cheap old car that'd be different, but I don't have the money to stand up to SF if they decide my ACV is less than I do. And again, I like SF, use them for all my commercial vehicles (5 total).
Jody
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Jody.....If you read my policy there is no doubt that it is agreed as long as the condition of your car hasn't changed after you put a value on it. The actual cash value of the car is the amount you insure your car for. I had my attorney check out the policy and he sees no problem with the language at all so I am very comfortable with it.
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Danny if your attorney is ok with it, then it should be ok. I agree however with Jody, the use of the term " OR " in that policy wording troubles me. In our Agreed Value coverage with Hagerty, there is no " OR " there is only a statement that Hagerty agrees to pay the amount the car is insured for, period. The "or" is scary for me. You might ask your attorney if he reads the policy such that there is absolutely 100% NO WAY you will ever get less than the 'agreed value' if its stolen or totaled out.
Many times, attorneys or ever insurance agents dont get asked the right question and if they are not into collector cars as we are, they dont follow to the same level of thinking that we do.
Id really hate to see you have any issues later if the right question was not asked. Again, most of us have SF for our other vehicles so its not a bash on SF here. Only that enough folks have found out to late that the right questions were not asked earlier.
Again, we are truely only trying to make 100% sure you would get the full agreed value for your car. Anytime I see " OR " the red light goes on.
If the agent or attorney cannot put this kind of guarantee in writing, something isnt covered.
I would ask for a statement like this " in the event of a totaled situation or stolen car, you will receive NO LESS than $xx,xxx which is the value we agree on at the annual issuance of this policy" unless of course the car was altered or damaged by you prior to the theft or accident.
That would clearly cover you and not give the insurance company any back door out for their use of the word " OR ".
It may seem like nitpicking to others that might read this, but is your pocket going to be missing $20,000 on a claim for $40,000 because the insurance company invokes their 'or' clause?
Have your agent read all these posts we have exchanged and see if he understands our concerns and see what he says. Id be very interested to know why they need the 'or' clause at all.
Thanks for being patient with this discussion, its all for the better understanding of wording that was created by attorneys, not us common folks. :)
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When I copied and pasted my policy it did not all show up. Here is the complete policy. This should clear things up better for all of you.
6171AK.1 ANTIQUE OR CLASSIC MOTOR VEHICLE
This endorsement is part of your policy. Except for the changes it makes, all other terms of the policy remain the same and apply to this endorsement. It is effective at the same time as your policy unless a different effective date is specified by us in writing.
In consideration of the premium charged for your policy, it is agreed that:
1. COVERAGE UNDER SECTION I - LIABILITY – COVERAGE A AND SECTION II – MEDICAL PAYMENTS – COVERAGE C APPLIES ONLY WHEN YOUR CAR IS USED IN EXHIBITIONS, CLUB ACTIVITIES, PARADES OR OTHER FUNCTIONS OF PUBLIC INTEREST AND OCCASIONALLY FOR PLEASURE AND BUSINESS.
2. SECTION IV – PHYSICAL DAMAGE COVERAGES
a. Limit of Liability – Comprehensive and Collision Coverages
This provision is changed to read:
The limit of our liability for loss to property or any part of it is the
lower of:
1. the actual cash value; or
2. the cost of repair or replacement. The cost of repair or replacement does not include any reduction in the value of the property after it has been repaired, as compared to its value before it was damaged.
You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is the
vehicle value shown on the declarations page unless:
1. your car has been damaged;
2. parts have been removed from your car; or
3. your car’s condition has changed due to abuse or neglect
after the vehicle value shown on the declarations page was agreed to and prior to the loss.
If any of these events have occurred, the agreed upon actual cash
value is the vehicle value shown on the declarations page reduced
by the decrease in the value of your car due to such damage, the
removal of parts and damage caused by the abuse or neglect.
Any deductible amount that applies is then subtracted.
The cost of repair or replacement is based upon one of the following:
1. The cost of repair or replacement agreed upon by you and
us;
2. a competitive bid approved by us; or
3. an estimate written based upon the prevailing competitive price, The prevailing competitive price means prices charged by a majority of the repair market in the area where the car is to be repaired as determined by a survey made by us. If you ask, we will identify some facilities that will perform the repairs at the prevailing competitive price. We will include in the estimate parts sufficient to restore the vehicle to the pre-loss condition. Such parts may include either parts furnished by the vehicle’s manufacturer or parts from other sources including non-original equipment manufacturers.
Any deductible amount that applies is then subtracted.
b. Settlement of Loss – Comprehensive and Collision Coverages
This provision is changed to read:
We have the right to settle a loss with you or the owner of the
property in one of the following ways:
1. pay the agreed upon actual cash value of the property as
determined above in exchange for the damaged property.
If the owner keeps the damaged property, we will deduct its value after the loss from our payment. The damaged property cannot be abandoned to us;
2. pay to:
a. repair the damaged property or part, or
b. replace the property or part.
If the repair or replacement results in betterment, you must pay for the amount of betterment; or
3. return the stolen property and pay for any damage due to
theft.
The Settlement of Loss provision for comprehensive and
collision coverage incorporates the Limit of Liability provision of
those coverages.
If we can pay the loss under either comprehensive or collision,
we will pay under the coverage where you collect the most.
When there is a loss to your car, clothes and luggage in the same
occurrence, any deductible will be applied first to the loss to
your car. You pay only one deductible.
c. The following is added:
Coverage for Spare Parts
We will pay up to $500 during the policy period for direct and accidental loss of or damage to spare parts which are owned by you and in your possession. Spare Parts means equipment designed to be used with vehicles of the same make and model as your car.
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I'm tellin' ya, that sounds like stated value.
Re-read this part:
1. the actual cash value; or
2. the cost of repair or replacement. The cost of repair or replacement does not include any reduction in the value of the property after it has been repaired, as compared to its value before it was damaged.
You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is the
vehicle value shown on the declarations page unless:
1. your car has been damaged;
2. parts have been removed from your car; or
3. your car’s condition has changed due to abuse or neglect
after the vehicle value shown on the declarations page was agreed to and prior to the loss.
The ACV OR the cost of repair or replacement. THEY get the choice, not you. Yes, your ACV is what is stated in the policy as long as no neglect, parts removal, blah blah blah.............. However, they're telling you right up front "OR THE COST OF REPLACEMENT!" No true agreed value policy says that, only stated.
So, your car gets totaled or stolen. It's agreed ACV is $30K and you haven't removed or neglected the car. Home free, right? Wrong, they get to look for comps (replacement value) and if they find a car that they feel is an equal to yours for $20K, well guess how much they'll give you. You'll be upset, but after all it's there in black and white, either ACV OR replacement value.
If your car is on the low end of what the particular model goes for then take your chances if you want. I see the either/or wording and know it's a stated policy. Not worth the risk to me.
Jody
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Is this an area of trouble:
You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is the
vehicle value shown on the declarations page unless:
1. your car has been damaged;
If your car is in an accident has it been damaged?
This policy seems to have alot of ifs and ors, and mentions ACV, but them ties ACV to the value in the declarations page, and then tells you if the car is damaged that number is no longer any good. I like the statement in may policy better. (posted earlier) that basically says you get in an accident we either pay you the total amount in the declarations page, or we pay up to the amount on the declarations page to fix your car. End of story. But if your lawyer likes it make sure you bring him with you to the insurance company if you ever have a claim.
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You guys aren't reading it right. That means the condition of the car has changed since you insured it.
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It also states "If we can pay the loss under either comprehensive or collision, we will pay under the coverage where you collect the most.
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Ive asked my Hagerty rep to read your policy as you displayed it here Danny and I asked him to comment so I can respond back as this information helps all of us. When I hear back I willl post back here BUT until then, I also dont like the OR in that wording. OR is 'their' way of thinking, and that concerns me. More later when I hear back.
Thanks again.
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I live in Florida and have Hagerty with a set agreed upon valve. Vehicle insurance is not a problem, try finding homeowners in the sunshine state.
Fireman John
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I got a call from a supervisor at Hagerty and they cannont comment on another company's policy wording due to legal issues if they mis-interpret something. They can only comment on their own. He suggested I show the wording to an Independent Agency in town and they are more free for commenting on various policy questions since they deal with many more of them. I will do that next week.
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I live in Florida and have Hagerty with a set agreed upon valve. Vehicle insurance is not a problem, try finding homeowners in the sunshine state.
Fireman John
You can say that again - The rates are absurd. :o
In my experience - when an insurance company can choose do either: this thing OR that thing.
They always choose the one that is most advantages to them - not you (unless you are a very important customer)
Sounds to me like with this policy, the company can choose to either: pay you - fix your car - Or - find you a replacement of similar value. (according to them)
Sounds like not a good position for the insured to be in - IMO.
This doesn't sound like "agreed" coverage, sounds like "stated value" - at the insurance companies discretion of the actual value. >:(
I could be wrong I am not a lawyer.
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I've been with Hagerty for roughly 9 years...the underwriter is "Emcompass Insurance". It is an "Agreed Value" policy which matches my "regular" car coverage for liability/prop damage.
I've never had any claims so I cannot give advice about how they treat a loss.
Ditto. I have two cars insured by Hagerty. Never had a claim, so I can't vouch for their claims processing. However, I sure like the "agreed upon vlaue". In addition, I have all of my family's daily drivers (seven of them) with Encompass. Again, no claims (knocking on wood), but my insurance agent highly recommended them.