CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Eriktampabay on August 04, 2018, 09:45:42 PM
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Newbie with a 67 rs/ss 396 convertible. I have no education in the muscle car world. I can tell you I am enjoying the vehicle.
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Hello. and welcome to the forum. If you're looking to find out if it's real, post the VIN, a picture of the trim tag and a picture of the engine pad.
Ed
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Yes, welcome to CRG!
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Apparently I need to resize the photos to post. But the Cowl tag says.
General Motor Corporation
12B E
ST 67-12667 NOR 49214 Body
TR 765-z N-2 Paint
2LG 3KL
4N 5Y
Body by Fisher
Vin is 124677N148682
Block number is 7148682
Block casting number is 3902406
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Resize the pics or email them to me and I will post them. See my profile for my email
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Not seeing your email listed. When I click on the message button it does not allow me to attach photos.
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Not seeing your email listed. When I click on the message button it does not allow me to attach photos.
I sent one to you. Reply to it when you have time. :)
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Thank you. Sent you a couple emails with some photos.
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Tag pic attached. I was worried about this based on the date you posted about the trim tag, but the tag is a reproduction. Your car is too early to be an original SS 396. Sorry.
If you would like to have the engine, trans and axle stamps verified, we can do that too.
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Thank you. Can you please explain more? How can you tell the tag is reproduction? What do you mean by being to early?
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I will respond to you off line in your email.
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Thank you. I do not mind you posting here either. The more education the better. Not just for me but for others.
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Erik, there are two major things wrong. The first is the trim tag. It's a reproduction. There are several tale tell indicators but we don't go into detail because the people that fake these things also frequent these web sites. We don't want to give them any more ammunition than they already have!
The second is the date on the tag (12B). That's the second week of December, 1966. The 396 wasn't available in the Camaro until a month after your car was built.
I hope you didn't pay "matching numbers" money for the car. If you did, I would strongly advise you to march right back to the seller and demand your money back.
Ed
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Thanks Bert. Can you show me where it is documented that the 396 was not available until Jan. Everywhere I read it says November. Mike antonicks white book also states November.
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Also my Vin and block number match. How can that be if it is not a true 396
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https://www.z28.com/threads/1967-model-year-info.595/
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That information is incorrect. (By the way, that site is riddled with incorrect information.) The correct information is HERE (http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#MidyearChanges), and was taken from Chevrolet Bulletin 66-164 dated December 16th, 1966. In it (Page 2), regarding the L35 (396/325) engine, it states "We currently anticipate production will start during the latter part of January."
The pre-production engineering development and testing for the big block was done in November and December of 1966, but the actual release date of the L35 engine wasn't until late December, 1966. That's when dealers could start ordering them. The very first L35 cars rolled off the assembly lines in early January, 1967. I no longer have access to the database, but if I remember correctly, the first L35 car we have in the database is the second week of January, 1967. Kurt, Daniel or Bryon will have to verify this for me.
The engine you have is a restamp. It doesn't have the correct fonts, is the wrong size and the original broach marks are no longer there indicating the block's been decked.
If you didn't pay a lot for the car, enjoy it for what it is, a big block clone. However, if you paid a lot of money for the car and it was represented as "numbers matching", get your money back. If you need verification from a professional, contact Jerry MacNeish at CAMARO HIGH-PERFORMANCE (http://z28camaro.com/wp/). (Jerry's THE authority on the first generation Camaro), and he can inspect the car for you. If you end up needing a lawyer, contact Bryan Shook at VINTAGE CAR LAW (http://www.vintageautomotive.net/?page_id=8). He specializes in these types of cases.
Ed
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Erik, I know it is hard to accept and a lot to digest. But that is why you posted: to learn about your car. And you even admitted your lack of knowledge about these type cars. This site has seen this over and over again, that is, misrepresented cars. When these two guys (Ed & Bryon) tell you their opinion, you can take it to the bank, so to speak. We are not here to bust bubbles, but we are here to dispel myth and seek truth. And although not the outcome you hoped, you can say you learned something about your car. And knowledge is power.
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I appreciate all you have said and the knowledge. I had suspected it with the lack of documentation on the vehicle. Thanks.
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Bertfam You state they anticipate production to start in late Jan yet also state that the first ones to roll of the lot where mid Jan.
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Their anticipation was based on a number of factors including available parts, snags in development, etc... so it was just a "best guess". Remember, the bulletin was dated December 16th, 1966 (my sister turned 4 on that day!!), and apparently things went more smoothly than they anticipated.
Ed
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Erik,
It’s not pertinent to know exactly to the day when Camaro SS 396 production started. Your car is too early for it to be a 396 car. End of story.
If you feel you got taken and the car was advertised as original, contact the seller and see what they will do for you. Otherwise hire an attorney.
You could also just continue to enjoy the car. The engine and transmission in my 68 are not original, not a big deal to me. The car was raced and they were likely blown up long ago.
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No. I hear ya. I am just relaying what the previous owner is telling me. The Broach marks are there, The rivets are correct on cowel tag. Font is correct. etc etc. First he offered me a full refund. Now he is back pedaling. Telling me about how there is no set date on the 396 blah blah blah. Now he is telling me about his health issues and gave me his attorneys number. I paid 52500 for the vehicle. Lesson learned. I will keep you guys updated. He went on to tell me about his 30 other vehicles one that sold for 5.2 million or something like that. A dodge Judge by the best of the best at Dallas world of wheels first place winner nationals.
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Might I add he said he purchased the vehicle way before cowel tags where being reproduced.
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Bcmiller you have seen the other photos of the vehicle. What do you think it is worth as a 396 clone? 25,000 to 30,000?
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Bcmiller you have seen the other photos of the vehicle. What do you think it is worth as a 396 clone? 25,000 to 30,000?
Hoping this turns out OK for you but stay on top of this and keep moving to correct as best you can with the end result hopefully being you got your money back. It's sad how often this happens! Good luck!
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No worries. Glad you guys are here to educate me and I will share the results.
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I told him to prove it wrong. Looking to rewrite history for the chevy community.
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I will take a look at the pics and if you want I can post a few. Can get you a very rough idea in value but a personal onsite inspection is always required to be accurate. What state are you located in?
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I am located in FL Parrish. Just outside of Tampa. You have the photos I can take more if you wish.
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You can post pics too. Just resize them to under 200 kb.
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A couple more
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You have not told us about the transmission and rear axle. Is the axle at least a 12 bolt? If so, what is the code on the front edge of the passenger side axle tube?
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The car is a real RS, but it was not a SS. I saw that new tag earlier this year....
Here's the tag picture from 10 years ago.
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Might I add he said he purchased the vehicle way before cowel tags where being reproduced.
Replacement cowl (not cowel) tags have been around practically forever. They are actually original unstamped blanks that you could order stamped to your specification through the mail before internet. They were advertised in places like Hemmings Magazine. When did he tell you he purchased the car?
Kurt has quite a smoking gun there if he can match it to the VIN, which I bet he can. Not only was the tag recreated with embellishments, the body number was slightly altered to further avoid detection.
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My 67 is a January car still identified as a SS 350, I read that when the mid year 396 debuted the car badges were changed to SS. My tag on the fire wall is original and the my rivets don't look the same as yours.
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Well Erik, according to the ORIGINAL trim tag Kurt posted, your car started life as a LF7 (327/210) with a Saginaw 4 speed, Console and Rally Sport.
Ed
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https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=148382&highlight=camaro (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=148382&highlight=camaro)
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Following the link that Darrell posted, I went back and found the eBay auction from April of this year. I think this link still works.
eBay item number: 112934747418
Seller assumes all responsibility for this listing.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/112934747418?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l10137
It’s tough to say exactly when the tag was swapped.
Hard to put a value on the car. But the restoration cost was probably more than what it’s worth.
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Plenty of discussion about this car when it was on Ebay.
https://www.camaros.net/forums/15-tag-team/451505-67-rs-ss-tag-validation.html (https://www.camaros.net/forums/15-tag-team/451505-67-rs-ss-tag-validation.html)
For others google VIN as usual.
124677N148682
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There's a reason I put the VIN in forum posts. :)
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Thanks Kurt. That is a practice we should all try to follow.
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Look at the bid history. From $47,000 on up it looks like shadow bidding with 0 feedback bidders.
https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/112934747418?item=112934747418&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565 (https://www.ebay.com/bfl/viewbids/112934747418?item=112934747418&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2565)
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Oh yeah. I thought that car looked familiar! And yes, it does appear that b***b and 0***i were shill bidders. They drove up the price another $5k. In my opinion, the car sold for about $15k to $20k over what it's worth.
Ed
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I think the car is really nice but agree with Ed,s pricing. If it were me I would lawyer up and offer a price change(ie) send me a check as a negotiation or else.
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Here is the first 2 paragraphs from the listing:
I searched 21 years for this "REAL" NUMBERS MATCHING 1967 RS/SS 396 Turbo-Jet 4-Speed Convertible. 1967 is the First year GM produced the Camaro and the Only year that has "Vent Windows." In my 40 years of being a muscle car enthusiast and collecting the rarest of muscle cars, I have seen a limited number of small block RS/SS convertibles and nearly all of those had automatic transmissions, but I have Never seen another 1967 RS/SS "396" 4-Speed Convertible that wasn't a Pace Car.
An interesting fact for the Brand New 1967 Camaro SS is that General Motors implemented the "NO 396 RULE," which meant there were to be no 396's put in any Camaro (with the exception of a limited number of Pace Cars.) Rather their High Performance engine was a special newly designed 350 cubic inch 4 BBL producing 295 HP and was developed specifically for the brand new and very first model year Camaro. It was not until late November of 1966 did GM relax the "NO 396 RULE" and allow dealerships to special order the 396 cubic inch engine in a Camaro, but who knows how many dealerships or their salespeople became aware of that? Perhaps that may be one of the reasons so few 396's were installed in the Camaro.
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The car is a real RS, but it was not a SS. I saw that new tag earlier this year....
Here's the tag picture from 10 years ago.
Kurt where did you obtain this photo of the original trim tag?
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You guys are amazing. Every single one of you. Well done. I will never purchase another Camaro before coming here first. Thought I had a matching number car but still had my doubts after checking all the numbers.
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Currently the previous owner offered me a full refund now he is not answering his calls. He gave me his lawyers number. I offered him a great deal no reply. He left a hand written rant in all the receipts I found. It is hard to read his writing it looks like he was drunk. This was pre paint and interior. It appears he tried to sell it on ebay back in 2011 or prior and perhaps before the New trim tag was put on.
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You have not told us about the transmission and rear axle. Is the axle at least a 12 bolt? If so, what is the code on the front edge of the passenger side axle tube?
Can you show me a photo of where to exactly look?
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The car is a real RS, but it was not a SS. I saw that new tag earlier this year....
Here's the tag picture from 10 years ago.
Amazing. Thank you sir.
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You have not told us about the transmission and rear axle. Is the axle at least a 12 bolt? If so, what is the code on the front edge of the passenger side axle tube?
Can you show me a photo of where to exactly look?
(http://www.camaros.org/images/pages/decoding/rearaxlestamp.gif)
http://camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#axle (http://camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#axle)
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WHat was Eds pricing I did not see it?
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Ed,s comment was $15k to$20k over priced at sale. I took that to be from the $52k ebay number. That would be $32 to $37k give or take. Very nice car but made up cars usually are $40k or less.
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Thank you.
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The car was on ebay back in May of 2007. It had its original trim tag at that time (the one Kurt posted above), but was dressed as an SS with white stripes, black top, a 396, 4 speed and 12 bolt axle. So between May of 2007 and April of 2018, it grew a new trim tag.
Ed
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The car was on ebay back in May of 2007. It had its original trim tag at that time (the one Kurt posted above), but was dressed as an SS with white stripes, black top, a 396, 4 speed and 12 bolt axle. So between May of 2007 and April of 2018, it grew a new trim tag.
Ed
Thanks Bert. I have receipts going back to 2011.
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Ed,s comment was $15k to$20k over priced at sale. I took that to be from the $52k ebay number. That would be $32 to $37k give or take. Very nice car but made up cars usually are $40k or less.
Thank you Kelly.
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The car was on ebay back in May of 2007. It had its original trim tag at that time (the one Kurt posted above), but was dressed as an SS with white stripes, black top, a 396, 4 speed and 12 bolt axle. So between May of 2007 and April of 2018, it grew a new trim tag.
Ed
Thanks Bert. I have receipts going back to 2011.
would be great to find any other photos and write up of this vehicle in 2007.
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Probably doesn’t matter in the long run. Seller represented it as real and it wasn’t. That’s who you need to deal with now. If he loses his case and feels he was taken, he can go after whoever sold it to him.
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Currently the previous owner offered me a full refund now he is not answering his calls. He gave me his lawyers number. I offered him a great deal no reply. He left a hand written rant in all the receipts I found. It is hard to read his writing it looks like he was drunk. This was pre paint and interior. It appears he tried to sell it on ebay back in 2011 or prior and perhaps before the New trim tag was put on.
It is very possible he has been following this thread and was expecting a call. Plenty of scammers read up here to hone their craft and never register or post. It certainly seems like full on fraud because he knew the body number on the trim tag was out there and he changed it in an attempt to avoid detection.
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quite possible. He gave me the number to his Legal council. I called her and she gave me her email address as FoxyNiko@yahoo.com LOL You can not make this shit up.
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Eric, I hope this gets resolved to your satisfaction. It sure seems to me the seller misrepresented the car and knew it.
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Thank you. I appreciate everyone here. I thought I did my homework by checking the numbers and they matched but I did not have the expertise you guys have and you have helped very well. I am happy I came here before I started fully restoring this vehicle. If I do not get any recourse. RESTOMOD here I come.
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Some states have pretty tough laws and penalties for misrepresenting vehicles , I ran into this years ago when the wife purchased a 55 chev from a fellow in the state of Indiana. Long story short but the car was bought on ebay ( which didn't want to do anything ) looked good in pics was stated to be in excellent condition and no rust through issues ,car was a rot bucket with nice paint ! You could reach up through the rear wheel house and stick your hand into the backseat.>:( We contacted an attorney from Indiana and the fellow was happy to refund about $7000.00 of the 20k purchase price rather than risk losing in court and facing a very stiff penalty in the state of Indiana for misrepresentation. I believe if it went to court he could have been forced to refund the full amount,pay a hefty fine and possibly jail ! I did't seek a full refund but merely wanted to pay a fair price for what we got rather than having my eye sockets gouged out of my head by some ebay scammer ! Had to pay an attorney a couple bucks to send this guy a legal jargon type letter but I was ( wife was ) into it for 20k already so what was another hundred or so ! ;)
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Hello, I m the new owner of this car. I knew the issues before taking possession of it and the fact that it is not real is no issue to me. I have a few things to add here .
1. The car was put together as a 396 quite some time back. You can tel, it from the rust and the fact that nothing under the car is new
2. The car has multi leaf rear springs. That tells me that the rear is not from the original 67. As far as I know all 67 had single leaf springs. Please correct me if I am wrong
3. Front seat belts have been replaced but the rears do have a 1966 date code on them
4. The Maroon color is the original color of the car. While it was blue at one point in its life.
5. Full floor and trunk pans have been replaced
6 both rear quarters have been replaced
I will continue to check things out on th car and document exactly what is really there.
I will be converting it to power disc front brakes as it really sucks in the stopping department.
With a real good detail and clean up, this will be a nice driver . Thanks Dynaflash
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Congratulations on your purchase!
Did you buy the car from the guy that started this post?
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Thanks Bert. Can you show me where it is documented that the 396 was not available until Jan. Everywhere I read it says November. Mike antonicks white book also states November.
Here's an excerpt from '67 facts, contained in this site (L35 in January, L78 in March, approximately):
Q: What were some of the changes occurring mid-year?
A: 1967 mid-year changes included:
Addition of a factory traction bar (radius rod) to most models with 12-bolt rear axle (circa December 1966).
View CRG Research Report on 1967 radius rods.
Addition of the L35 and L78 396 engines (circa January and March 1967, respectively).
Replacement of SS-350 grille emblems with SS emblems.
Addition of the Z28 (circa December 1966).
SS nose stripe turned into RPO available to all models (except Z28).
Frame tie-down holes added to front subframe.
Another clue to the tag is the obvious age of the tag itself - I've never seen a restored tag look THAT crisp. Other clues noted above that most of us prefer not to show to the reproduction tag guys -
Regards,
Steve
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Thanks Bert. Can you show me where it is documented that the 396 was not available until Jan. Everywhere I read it says November. Mike antonicks white book also states November.
Here's an excerpt from '67 facts, contained in this site (L35 in January, L78 in March, approximately):
Q: What were some of the changes occurring mid-year?
A: 1967 mid-year changes included:
Addition of a factory traction bar (radius rod) to most models with 12-bolt rear axle (circa December 1966).
View CRG Research Report on 1967 radius rods.
Addition of the L35 and L78 396 engines (circa January and March 1967, respectively).
Replacement of SS-350 grille emblems with SS emblems.
Addition of the Z28 (circa December 1966).
SS nose stripe turned into RPO available to all models (except Z28).
Frame tie-down holes added to front subframe.
Another clue to the tag is the obvious age of the tag itself - I've never seen a restored tag look THAT crisp. Other clues noted above that most of us prefer not to show to the reproduction tag guys -
Regards,
Steve
I should have backed up and looked at the dates on the posts before I chimed in - nothing like overstating the obvious. Thanks for the reminder, Bentley -
Regards,
Steve
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Congratulations on your purchase!
Did you buy the car from the guy that started this post?
Yes it did come from the guy that started this. I think he just could not stand the car because he was cheated. He was more than honest though. Never tried to put it off as a real 396;car. Since I have received the car , I have Che led a few things and here is some more info.
I am sure that the conversion to 396 was done a long time ago. It has nothing new underneath. Car is not restored but more of a repaired / fixed up driver
It has multi leaf rear springs and no radius rod. Kinda makes me think the rear is from 68 or 69 car but I have yet to find the numbers on it. It is covered with surface rust but I will clean it off and figure out the details.
It has the front drum , non power brakes. I don’t care if it was a numbers matching car, these have to go. Power disc conversion underway.
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In the end, it is still a classic 1967 Camaro convertible.
So, enjoy!
Mike
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Thanks Bert. Can you show me where it is documented that the 396 was not available until Jan. Everywhere I read it says November. Mike antonicks white book also states November.
Here's an excerpt from '67 facts, contained in this site (L35 in January, L78 in March, approximately):
Q: What were some of the changes occurring mid-year?
A: 1967 mid-year changes included:
Addition of a factory traction bar (radius rod) to most models with 12-bolt rear axle (circa December 1966).
View CRG Research Report on 1967 radius rods.
Addition of the L35 and L78 396 engines (circa January and March 1967, respectively).
Replacement of SS-350 grille emblems with SS emblems.
Addition of the Z28 (circa December 1966).
SS nose stripe turned into RPO available to all models (except Z28).
Frame tie-down holes added to front subframe.
Another clue to the tag is the obvious age of the tag itself - I've never seen a restored tag look THAT crisp. Other clues noted above that most of us prefer not to show to the reproduction tag guys -
Regards,
Steve
I should have backed up and looked at the dates on the posts before I chimed in - nothing like overstating the obvious. Thanks for the reminder, Bentley -
Regards,
Steve
I am not trying to say this is a real 396 car at all. In fact I have a picture of what was told to me is the original data plate and I am looking into getting it reproduced so that the stigma of the fake plate can fade. I think the car world feel better about it and I know I will.
I am trying to figure the car out and believe that the conversion was done a long time ago. I have not yet checked casting numbers or stamped numbers but it does have a 12 bolt, Muncie trans and Big block. I will document everything as I get to it. First thing is clean up and fix the many many details and small things that need attention. Then the power disc brake conversion and then enjoy the ride.
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In the end, it is still a classic 1967 Camaro convertible.
So, enjoy!
Mike
My thoughts exactly. When my wife and I were dating (1975-76) I had a Bolero Red 67 RS/SS 4 speed car. It had a non matching 427 in it that I built while working at Reed Cams. ( race car shop ) it was not a convertible though. So this car will be used as a fun car and go on a few dates some 42 years later. 😁
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A little update on the car.
The power disc conversion is complete. It will stop now. Much better.
The rear end is a 68 3:07 single traction multi leaf spring 12 bolt
The tires looked like new. My guess is they had 2000 miles at the most but they were 17 years old and came apart shortly I got the car. Check your tire date codes guys. But anyway that tells me the car has not been driven much in the last 17 years. That is changing. I have new tires and have put 300 miles on the car.
Fixed many small things like the chrome windshield header etc.
The car has 2 passenger seats in it. ( both back release levers are on the right side of the seat) does not really hurt anything but strange still the same.
I now have everything working. Headlights open and close. All brake lights etc. Except the radio does not work. Not sure if I will ever fix that though.
The car is missing the right rear cocktail shaker but I think I have a line on one.
I replaced the shifter bushings and now the shifter is nice and tight.
The car shows 89k miles and there is a good possibility that it is accurate. The car has never been restored ( just repaired and fixed up) but it has also seen many years of little or no use. Could be 189k but I really doubt it.
It is now getting to be a good and reliable driver. ( I think )
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Couple more updates. I found out that the tachometer for a 327 car is different than a 396 car and this car has a 327 tach in it. I am still fighting the vibrations and working through the possible issues one by one.
Driveshaft balanced and new u joints added
New tires and wheels balanced.
Adding new poly sub frame bushings soon
Will also try changing all the wheels to a known good set to see if there is something that is wrong with the wheels?
Need to rebuild the carburetor as it has a little stumble in it when taking off. Nothing big but I like to cover all the bases
Will keep anyone that is interested up to date as I make changes. I want to add the correct data plate to the car but they are 250.00 . Maybe someday
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Well the 67 Camaro is going full circle. The fake data plate has been removed and a new reproduction one has been ordered. Thanks to Kurt for having a picture of the original to go from. The stamps on the engine block have been punched flat and a new coat of orange paint will cover it as well. The car will (for now) remain a 396 and will keep the SS emblems even though this was originally a 327 RS car.
Thanks to all for your help on this.
Now for a little update on the details of the car. I have added the proper engine stands and transmission cross member for the big block. Cleaned the engine bay and repainted everything. Replaced the valve covers and air cleaner because of a little rust. New stickers and changed the carburetor to a Holley spreadbore. It runs much better and looks very nice.
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Sounds like your getting the Camaro set up to the way you want to enjoy her. Good for you. Most often it is this type build that gets the most enjoyment from their owners. You don't have the worries of putting wear and tear plus miles on them. Actually get to go out and enjoy it for what it is. "Keep on truck'in".
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Glad to be able to help. Some people aren't so happy to see the original tag... :)