CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: cars1234 on July 10, 2018, 11:20:21 PM
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Hi,sorry if this is the wrong area to post this but some areas would not show the NEW symbol to post,
I have come across a family that after owning a 1969 Camaro 307 since 1969 NON SS or anything exciting ask me if i wanted to buy the car.
Been awhile since I've seen it and did not look at it really intense as it was not forsale when i last seen it 6yrs ago.
The car is few hrs 6 from me and I'm taking a trailer just in case, It does need some work from setting ,but they only want what i think is very cheap 15k for the car is this a NO BRAINER or am i missing something here,,I've looked on the usual spots but everyone has SS..SS/RS 396 The good stuff for sale i cant find a plain ole 307 for sale,,
Any advise on what i should look for in the car..areas of what are the most concerning should it have a 12 bolt?
man any help or advise would help i got a few corvettes but Camaros way to many models to keep up with.
Thanks and please if this is the wrong area and you can move it or tell me how to ill gladly do so..thanks and God bless our Veterans!!
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Welcome, glad you found this site. First, EVERY Camaro has interest, because hardly any two 1st gens. are the same. Many feel the 69 model embodies the epitome of all the cars made in that era. It has beautiful styling, handsome from every angle, iconic to say the least. There were more engine options available in the 1969 model year than any before or since. Your car could be of particular interest as this site is always looking for authentic, original cars to document details and nuances that we all may learn more about the car. early Camaros have been the favorite car to modify and butcher. Many have been made race cars, street rods, restomods, and everything in between. Clean unmolested examples are scarce and the exception, not the rule. so your about to be purchased car has much to celebrate if it has made it over 50 years without succumbing to modifications, or at least, not too many modifications.Most all 69 Camaros have lower fender rust where the lower part meets the door. Floor boards and trunks are also subject to rust as well as rocker panels and frame rails and shock towers (where the rear shock bolts to the trunk area) Front foot wells and cowl seams and lower windshield/dash are rust prone. Most concern would be any structural rust. So examine frame rails, rockers and where subframe bolts to body (subframe mounts are prone to rust, as well). All rust is serious and needs to be considered because it is all hard and expensive to repair (correctly). Because repairs can quickly exceed the car's value, be aware that repairing is more a passion and loss of use, money and time are factors that need to be considered. Much more preferable, if the car is basically sound, would be to just drive and enjoy and concentrate on preservation. You would be very surprised how well a 50 year old car with rust, bruises, ripped seat, but still in its original, albeit faded, paint can garner a larger crowd than a shiny refurbished car. Why? They are few and far between these days and the fact it is like a just found artifact creates a lot of interest at shows. Enjoy and preserve. And again, welcome aboard.
As an aside, you may notice the last car in my signature was a 307 car.
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Thank you and much appreciated advice,I wont go til the weekend so any and all advice is much needed,
thank you
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Love the DX-1 hood stripe, very under-represented amongst all the hockey-stick and Z28 stripes these days.
Best advice to anyone wanting to buy a 67-69 Camaro to drive and enjoy (as opposed to garage and watch appreciate -perhaps) would be to buy the most solid bodied car you can find, as significant bodywork is where most projects will swallow your budget and then a lot more besides. Nothing wrong with a 307 if you're not intent on having a performance model, and those more-desirable types are frequently not truly what they purport to be anyway.
Otherwise, can't improve on what Bentley has already offered.
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I will concur, with Bentley as well.
Especially for a non SS, or high performance model, all the value is in the body, and then secondly how original it is, (in that order).
Even if the motor or trans had been swapped, if the body is nice your still good at 15K. the lower parts of the fenders may have a little rust, or the corners of the doors. check the rear quarters, and jack the car and just verify the floors are good. As Bentley said check out the frame rails and rear sheet metal. Behind the back window, can sometimes be an issue. The more pics you provide, the more we can help.
Looks like an ideal car to have as a cruiser, Only mod I see so far is someone painted the grill, and the surround black. If it was mine I would go back with the factory colors. (body color surround, and argent silver grill). I also love the factory stripes.
keep us updated.
Good luck
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Wow,so far you guys have me feeling confident about going to look at this car my head is growing with knowledge and a friend told me to go to the ADVANCE ebay section and put in 1969 camaro SOLD see what comes up..closest i could find is this car"i believe" if i'm wrong please advise me..thanks again.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/332666881788?nordt=true&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l10137
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Don,t let your excitement overwhelm your judgement. It may not be unmolested. The grill and the shine on that color makes me think it has at least be repainted. I doubt the stripe is original and there could be hidden rust repairs. At 50 years old 20 year old make overs can look original.
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I would not be concerned about the level of molestation. It has a flat hood, and 307 emblems, and frost green. No dazzling SHP super-rare anything on the surface. Cant have a 12 bolt, or dual exhaust, or SS equipment so no worries there.
A solid, base V8 '69 Camaro is what it is. Price is right, and the one owner thing is pretty cool too. Look for rust in the usual places but remember, this is a '69 Camaro.
Hurry up and grab it before someone does. You have no idea how much excitement you will get when you drive this car around. It's going to be like a 1 car parade. People will want to talk your ears off about it wherever you park it.
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try to load more pics..see if i get it right this time,,
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only lets me do 1 pic at a time
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1 more
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Rarely do one of these cars go untouched after 50 years. The question is how much? Or, how severe a departure from what it started out as? With an exploding aftermarket, and the resultant plethora of parts for these cars, this presents a 2 edge sword. On one side, these parts have kept these cars popular and on the road because you can start with a lug nut and build a car from that starting point. On the other side, many cars are “embellished” with options so numerous and so many cars have had this treatment, that a newcomer to these cars would think all early Camaros were heavily optioned, luxurious cars. That was the exception! As time passes, it becomes more difficult to know what the car started out as and has evolved and, sadly, passed off as something it is not, nor ever was.
Now, addressing your prospective purchase, I see a console. That was an option. I see an assist strap above the glove box. That was a mid level interior trim upgrade known as “ special interior, aka Z23 option. I also see fabric seat cover known as “Houndstooth” pattern. This is one of those embellishments. That pattern could only be had in the “custom”, aka Z87 interior. A link so you can read for yourself. http://www.camaros.org/interior.shtml
It’s not a put down, nor a deal breaker. Just an observation.
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it is also not tough to correct, if you so desired and go back with the black standard interior covers. I think the pics you posted look good.
As always, just really check out that body. As mentioned it probabley has had a repaint, so just look for signs of repair or body work.
I understand your excitement, but I would suggest to look at the car with a bit of skepticism. This way you really have a good sense of the car and can evaluate it, prior to purchase.
The mistake that is commonly made is guys get so excited they overlook glaring issues, and purchase a polished turd. Not saying this is the case for you, just make sure you really crawl and check the body everywhere.
have fun and good luck!
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James,BULLIT65,I'm NOT thin skinned please be honest with me as i ask for advise not sympathy these items you mention,
I had no idea,
Anything on the cowltag i can look for in this model that would make it RARE?
Also are you saying NO way it could have been born with the dash strap and the hounds tooth interior or center console? these are items latter added for the owners taste ,I would love it he put a 12bolt under it LOL.I know that not gonna happen.
But HONESTLY...
If the body is in perfect condition would i be better off buying it and doing an SS clone money wise?putting a 4speed and a 350 /396 in it
or is it worth more if its numbers match put it back as it was born?
Be HONEST with me guys tell me like it is,No political correctness here!!
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Dash assist handle would be correct for a hounds tooth interior. Look for code 713 on the trim tag.
I don't think you are going to find anything especially rare or valuable on this car. Looks like it has had the normal things reconditioned over the years, so not a survivor type car.
As others have said, if the body is pretty solid then 15K is market value. Buy it if you like it. Pass on it if you think you are finding a rare bird and flipping for big profit.
307 car is pretty low HP/desirability engine. You would not hurt the value if you upgraded drive train.
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Out of the 3 - 1)strap-2)console-3)seat coverings, I only pointed out the 3)seat coverings as a definite departure from original and correct. I cannot comment on the other 2. I said that they, the strap and console, are options and possible, plausible, correct to this car.
As to the “clone”. Once your car, do as you please. It is YOUR car. If you want to make it into a clone, irrespective of which “will be worth more”, that is just your taste and ideas. The car is basically a “rolling canvas”, that the owner / artist uses to express their own ideas. It is far too premature to make that assessment to determine if the car best be left alone or modified based on a few pictures. Some guys will make the “clone” of their dreams, yet be mindful and appreciative of originality and keep the original pieces boxed up and not separate them from the car. You have many options. As far as value? Some will think the value is enhanced with that modification. Others won’t. So you will just have another segment interested, and value is not hurt. There is always someone seeking out a specific type (original,restored,hot rod, day 2, restomod). The list goes on. So you won’t be hurt no matter which way you go.
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OK I see what you mean now. The houndstooth seat covers would have come with molded door panels, so they are most likely not original. Probably a 711 code interior.
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Out of the 3 - 1)strap-2)console-3)seat coverings, I only pointed out the 3)seat coverings as a definite departure from original and correct. I cannot comment on the other 2. I said that they, the strap and console, are options and possible, plausible, correct to this car.
As to the “clone”. Once your car, do as you please. It is YOUR car. If you want to make it into a clone, irrespective of which “will be worth more”, that is just your taste and ideas. The car is basically a “rolling canvas”, that the owner / artist uses to express their own ideas. It is far too premature to make that assessment to determine if the car best be left alone or modified based on a few pictures. Some guys will make the “clone” of their dreams, yet be mindful and appreciative of originality and keep the original pieces boxed up and not separate them from the car. You have many options. As far as value? Some will think the value is enhanced with that modification. Others won’t. So you will just have another segment interested, and value is not hurt. There is always someone seeking out a specific type (original,restored,hot rod, day 2, restomod). The list goes on. So you won’t be hurt no matter which way you go.
I agree (again) with Bentley, but I will add on.
judging only by the pics, the car appears to be very original, even with a repaint and the seat covers. When I view tis car what makes it "special", is it has not been made into a SS, Z/28, COPO clone. So in my opinion, what is going to garner the interest, and be more of a crowd pleaser is to leave it as stock appearing outside as possible. The green and DX stripe, while not super rare or highly collectable, is "rare" in the sense that you probably will not run into another car in that condition with those. Now if it were me, I would build a fun small block for it with 400hp or so and dress it so it looks like a 307. You could also have your trans gone through and ad a shift kit. That way you could still have a bunch of fun , but keep it original in appearance. A very cool Sleeper. Put the 307 on and engine stand. If you ever wanted to re-install the 307 you always could.
The car is yours to do as you like, but the car is "rare" in its current form. To many clones out there already, the fun cars to check out are the original ones for me.
What ever you do have fun with it. You only live once. ;)
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just saw all the typo mistakes. sorry
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I say tub it and make a pro street.
Actually I would LS3/4L80E swap it and upgrade the suspension. Leave the body & interior "as is" and drive the piss out of it.
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not a bad idea with the LS swap and suspension. guess it depends on budget, and how many drivers he may have already.
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When you go to check it out, the trim tag on the firewall will confirm what the original interior code was, perhaps the car did come with deluxe interior and houndstooth but the door panels got changed for standard ones, rather than the other way around.
Personally I favor originality, and I would be far more interested at a show looking at a mostly-original base car than a questionable 'tribute' to a more desirable model, but if you buy the car, you can do whatever you want; last classic I bought, I drove for 18 months as found before deciding what path I wanted to go down.
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Hi,I checked the car out today very nice has some issues but it has a X11 code on the cowl tag what exactly does that mean?
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http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes (http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes)
Scroll down to X codes
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I seen that Darrel but that means every car that was a 350 SS or less was a X11 Code..LOL
What exactly does that X CODE mean ?
Thanks
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X11: Not a Z28. Not a 396ci SS. Otherwise it was either an L6 (230 or 250) or a V8 (327/307 or 350*) coupe or convertible, optioned with the Style Trim or Rally Sport appearance package. Could also have been a COPO of course!
* note: the 307 V8 replaced the 327 during the '69 model year, and the available 350 engine options included the LM1 and the SS350.
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Tim does that mean it coulda came as an R/S or SS or could be turned into one of the aforementioned?
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The vehicles were assembled in two phases. The X-codes were used at the Fisher Body side of the vehicle assembly plant to help them figure out exactly how to paint the body, exposed metal parts of the interior and what trim pieces need to be used - just on the shell. The front clip was not prepared or installed at this time. The X-codes were not used to nail down the SS or Z/28 options by Fisher but only to instruct the first part of the construction before the vehicle was sent to the second phase of assembly. Fisher did not need to know if it was a Z/28 or SS but they did need to know how to paint and dress the back half of the body shell.
The Chevrolet assembly plant was the second phase where all the major pieces were attached to the Fisher prepared body shell. The Chevrolet side is where the broadcast sheets (bill of materials) included much more vehicle specific information/options combinations. The front clip was prepared and installed separately in the second phase of assembly.
Today we are using the X-codes to backward engineer the evidence of a cars possible original configuration. Some X-codes apply to several different possible optional combinations while some codes are very specific because they only have a limited number of applications. If you see X-33 it has to be a Z/28 with added chrome trim because that is the only car shell that looked like that. The trunk lid needs stripes added and no other possible configuration exists with those stripes. If the trim code is X-77 it needed Z/28 stripes without any additional chrome trip option. No other option package would have a shell like that so it is a unique x-code. The X-11 does not apply only to one specific option package so the code applies to multiple possible applications. Could not be an SS and could not be for a Z/28 because those shells were dressed differently by Fisher. X-11 or X-44 are more "generic" than other codes. SS-396 has a X-22 or X-66 because it needed a black painted tail panel that was unique to the SS-396. If customer wanted the extra chrome trim on a SS-396, there was a unique Fisher code for that. It does not apply to any other body shell preparation.
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...x-33 is only possible configuration exists with those stripes. If the trim code is X-77 it needed Z/28 stripes without any additional chrome trip option. No other option package would have a shell like that so it is a unique x-code.....
A very good explanation. But I will confuse you, unintentionally, when I tell you of another car the got the “Z” stripes. That is the Z10 & Z11 Indy Pace Car replicas and promotionally painted coupe.
To summarize. X-11 means the car got “Style Trim”. A group of brightwork trim embellishments. X-11 tells you it is Not, nor ever could have been, the following-Z28, Indy Pace Car replica, SS 396 period. AND SS 350 ONLY without Style Trim.
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I seen that Darrel but that means every car that was a 350 SS or less was a X11 Code..LOL
What exactly does that X CODE mean ?
Thanks
You may have "seen that" but you probably should have read it. Everything covered that people are posting is all there. Also the search function on this site is very helpful.
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Darrell,I say seen that meaning as i read it! I as a novice could/probably get a different interpretation then what is meant! I have no problem googling and reading but the meaning,definition and interpretation that I get is probably different than what is meant so I rely on the experts opinion not to steer me wrong rather than what i read/see
X11* non-SS396, non-Z28,
includes SS350
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From the link I posted above.. BTW good luck with your future purchases and searches..
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Darrell,I say seen that meaning as i read it! I as a novice could/probably get a different interpretation then what is meant! I have no problem googling and reading but the meaning,definition and interpretation that I get is probably different than what is meant so I rely on the experts opinion not to steer me wrong rather than what i read/see
X11* non-SS396, non-Z28,
includes SS350
X11 means it could have been a 6 cyl, base V8, or SS350 and it would of had the style trim. Style trim could of been part of the RS package or ordered separately.
On this car it means base V8 with style trim, no RS