CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: hihorse on June 18, 2018, 08:20:06 PM

Title: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: hihorse on June 18, 2018, 08:20:06 PM
Can a car be considered a Muscle car if it wasnt born with a posi?
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: x66 714 on June 18, 2018, 08:53:32 PM
Do you consider a Z/28 a muscle car? Posi was an option...Joe
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: BULLITT65 on June 18, 2018, 09:10:29 PM
I would say sure a muscle car to me is more the motor and size (footprint) of the car. Many 66-70 Chevelles SS did not come with a Posi, but a 396 was standard. I would classify all them as muscle cars. I think where I take issue, is pony car vs. muscle car. To me the Z/28 and all small block camaros is more pony car than muscle car, and for sure the Mustangs would be more pony car, unless they had a big block.
Also IMO while I would say the 61-62 impala/bel-air with the 409 is a muscle car, since there was no other early chevy alternative, I tend not to put 65-69 Impala with the 396 in the muscle car category, because how big and heavy they are, and you had the chevelle, camaro, and then the BB corvette as a go to.
I am sure someone could make the argument for the dressed down 2 door post cars (bel air) as a muscle car with a BB, I would say that may fall in the category as well.
But is the 1970 454 monte carlo, still a muscle car? I would say no, more luxury car with a BB.

Thats my 2 cents, and may vary a little when discussing different fords and mopars.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: rsms on June 18, 2018, 09:37:51 PM
I have (2) 1971 GS455 convertibles and 1 has posi and one doesn't, totally identical cars.  I also have a 67 GS400 that does have posi as a comparison.  I always wondered about this myself but being that posi was an option on a Z28 (my 68 does have posi) I don't really think you can say posi would be the determining factor of a true muscle car.  I do think it's odd that someone would not have checked the box for it especially if you were choosing the higher horse power or larger displacement engine options
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: 169INDY on June 18, 2018, 10:12:31 PM
.... I don't really think you can say posi would be the determining factor of a true muscle car.  I do think it's odd that someone would not have checked the box for it especially if you were choosing the higher horse power or larger displacement engine options
Exactly

SINGLE TIRE FRYER! is Still a muscle car  ( I know Spinning isn't winning)
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: dannystarr on June 18, 2018, 10:14:58 PM
YOU'RE KILL'IN ME!!  " To me the Z/28 and all small block Camaros is more pony car than muscle car, and for sure the Mustangs would be more pony car, unless they had a big block.  ??? ??? ???   First off, the term was invented for the '65 Mustang.. Right? WAY before the Camaro. Then it just got lumped in 2 years later with the Camaro cause it was convenient and they are both smaller car body styles. PONY is a small horse, Mustang is a type of horse, and I have and NEVER will call a Camaro a PONY car! NOW, let's jump to 1968.. what car won the SCCA AND the NHRA that year? UH.. Z/28! Little baby 302.6 cubic inch small block engine. To bad it's NOT a real muscle car!! Heck I might as well sell both of mine ;D ;D ;D   Danny
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: Charley on June 18, 2018, 10:49:15 PM
I thought the term started with the 64 GTO.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: Pat C. on June 18, 2018, 11:58:35 PM
I have a 67 6 banger with a born with 3:55 Posi..... Sweet!
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: BULLITT65 on June 19, 2018, 12:15:44 AM
Danny, so you just don't like the catagory of pony car, since the mustang was the first to represent it? I would also say the early barracuda would be a "pony car". I wouldn't say the 289/302 mustangs, would be muscle cars, but I could see someone making the argument for the SS 350, or Z/28 being a muscle car. While the 327 283 (307) wouldn't be. Although i have had some 283's and 327's backed with a 4 speed, that would spin 8k all day long, and could hang out beat up on cars with more C.I.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: HustleRussell on June 19, 2018, 12:30:56 AM
I have a 67 6 banger with a born with 3:55 Posi..... Sweet!


Welcome to CRG Pat.
I'm a big fan of the inline six. Would love to see
some pics and some history of your 67 6 banger.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: dannystarr on June 19, 2018, 01:10:38 AM
Could have been the GTO. I just assumed with the name connection that it was Mustang. Here is Wikipedia info.. Who Knows..

 Defining the class

to search


Not to be confused with the Hyundai Pony.

 


  Ford Mustang
Pony car is an American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964. It broke all post-World War II automobile sales records, "creating the 'pony car' craze soon adopted by competitors."The term describes an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image

The 1964 Mustang provided the template for the new class of automobiles. The term "pony car" to describe members of its ranks was coined by Car Life magazine editor Dennis Shattuck
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: Mike S on June 19, 2018, 01:15:15 AM
 I've always looked at my '67 Camaro's as pony cars. Still, one L35 SS has a posi and the other L35 has a non-posi rear.

Mike
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: bcmiller on June 19, 2018, 06:29:02 AM
My 1968 L78 did not have a posi originally and the 1967 L35 I will be restoring with my son didnít either. Both are posi now.

I would never call a First Gen Camaro a pony car. Thatís for that ďother carĒ thatís discussed in Ford forums. :)

I think the term Muscle Car started in the 50s.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: JKZ27 on June 19, 2018, 10:16:04 AM
I thought the term started with the 64 GTO.

X2

Muscle car, posi or not, IMO.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: 69Z28-RS on June 19, 2018, 01:40:45 PM
Yep, the acknowledged first 'Muscle Car' was the '64 GTO...   the term 'muscle car' basically means a less expensive, lighter weight body with large engine!

The '64 GTO was a 'Lemans' with 389 engine...   (note:  The '62 Grand Prix could be had with 4 speed, 389 or even 421, BUT the grand prix was not a lightweight, less expensive body!

The 'Pony car' term has been used to group the cars which Chrysler, Chevy, AMC, etc came out with to emulate the characteristics of the '64-65 Mustang...  a lighter, smaller less expensive and yet 'sporty' car loved by young people...  ie.  Barracuda, Camaro, Javelin, etc.

PS.  if the Camaro had been the First one..  do you think the general term adopted to describe the group would be called the '"amigo" or 'friend' cars?   :)
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: bcmiller on June 19, 2018, 02:37:10 PM
Ask 10 gear heads and you will probably get at least 7 different answers.

Some say the first muscle car was the 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket 88.

Itís tough to pin things down to a particular car. A late 50s Corvette with a 283 and ďtwo foursĒ had plenty of muscle for the time. :)
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: 69Z28-RS on June 19, 2018, 03:28:37 PM
Bryon,

Anyone can use 'their own made updefinitions'... :)  ... but these terms are terms generated by the cars mags, and have a generally approved/used definition among that crowd (and most of us who read those magazines).   The term muscle car came about in the automotive press in the mid-late '60's... driven by lightweight cheap cars - roadrunners, chevelles, etc.. midsize lightweights with BIG motors, and the term is still used in the automotive press the same way.

If you want to refer to a 49 Oldsmobile as a 'muscle car', then go to it...  but I really doubt that you can reference ANY magazine article that refers to it that way (that this is not a cut of the 49 Olds- it was a good car for the time, but very heavy .. too heavy..  to be a muscle car).

Same with the early Corvette (regardless of the engine).   They were 'sports cars' (at least that's what Chevy/GM was TRYING to produce).. and way too expensive to be a muscle car.  Can you find a magazine article when these corvettes were new that refers to them as 'muscle cars'...?

Here is how they (the automotive press) define Pony Car: ďAn American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964. The term describes an affordable, compact, highly styled car with a sporty or performance-oriented image.Ē ... A Pony Car is small, and a Muscle Car is somewhere between mid-size and full size.May 8, 2014
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: cook_dw on June 19, 2018, 04:16:30 PM
(http://www.brain-magazine.fr/m/posts/28241/originals/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: bcmiller on June 19, 2018, 04:29:23 PM
Gary,

Check this...

https://www.carfax.com/blog/american-muscle-car-grew
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: 69Z28-RS on June 19, 2018, 08:21:16 PM
Bryon,

I read the carfax article but didn't agree very much with it...  and I've never considered 'carfax' or 'aaron turpen' as authorities on anything!  I doubt either were around even during the '70's... :)

If you believe that article, you'd undoubtedly consider anything with an engine to be a 'muscle car'...  example:  "....In 1957, though, another car many claim as the first true muscle car was introduced: the American Motors Rambler Rebel"!   *L*

I certainly never read/heard that one anywhere else...!

The Muscle Car 'era' was from the early 60's thru the early-mid '70's...  Find a real car magazine of that era that references any of the 'car fax' muscle cars... .as 'muscle cars'!  :)
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: bcmiller on June 19, 2018, 10:59:29 PM
Glad you arenít an old dog that canít learn new tricks.  ::)
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: 69Z28-RS on June 19, 2018, 11:19:59 PM
:)   me too!  :)     I surely don't need any 'new dogs like carfax' to redefine the terms we've used for 40 yrs..  :)
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: bcmiller on June 19, 2018, 11:46:17 PM
Muscle car terminology is subjective. Ask some old people.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: cook_dw on June 19, 2018, 11:47:06 PM
.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: Petes L48 on June 20, 2018, 12:13:00 AM
Let us not forget that the 79 Ford Pinto was posi-tively among the very first Mussel Cars!

(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/7d5871e6a17160399c7931ad1943eca14fbe81c9/c=0-0-2269-1706&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2018/05/07/DetroitFreeP/DetroitFreePress/636613150601342096-RUCK-CP-pinto1.jpg)

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/05/08/diver-ford-pinto-lake-michigan/582227002/

Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: ko-lek-tor on June 20, 2018, 12:26:44 AM
Let us not forget that the 79 Ford Pinto was posi-tively among the very first Mussel Cars!

(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/7d5871e6a17160399c7931ad1943eca14fbe81c9/c=0-0-2269-1706&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2018/05/07/DetroitFreeP/DetroitFreePress/636613150601342096-RUCK-CP-pinto1.jpg)

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/05/08/diver-ford-pinto-lake-michigan/582227002/


Wow, they finally found a good use for the Pinto?!
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: 69Z28-RS on June 20, 2018, 03:34:33 AM
and Everybody knows the pinto is/was a real pearl...  :)
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: hihorse on June 20, 2018, 03:46:16 PM
IMO, Muscle car is a complete intimidating package, drivetrain must include big motor, Muncie/400 and big posi rear. Cant see any  "muscle car" on one leg as being intimidating. Why would anybody not check  off posi when ordering?
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: bcmiller on June 20, 2018, 03:53:06 PM
You have to realize not every car was ordered by a customer. Some were just for stock on the lot. SS did not require a posi, and Z28s didnít either until into the 69 model year. 
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: Vince on June 20, 2018, 03:55:49 PM
I don't know if it was just within my group of buddies in college and after or a general term that others used, but I remember back in the day (very early '70's) we referred to high performance cars as super cars.  I don't remember muscle cars used as a reference until maybe 1980's or '90's.  That being said I have always considered the 1964 GTO as the first super or muscle car; a mid-size car with a medium or big block high performance engine, stripped with very few if any options and no luxury features.  The 1968 Roadrunner would be a good example of a true muscle car.  Corvettes have always been sports cars.  For me the hardest distinction is for the Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, Cougar, Challenger, Cuda, Javelin cars.  In one way I would group them all as pony cars because of their size and layout, long front deck and short rear.  But a car like a Boss 429, COPO Camaro, 440 6 pack Challenger, or hemi Cuda seems to fit under muscle car rather than pony car.  Maybe it all depends on the size of the engine in it.  Then there is the AMX.  Sports car or pony car or muscle car?  We could go on and on.   
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: Brent396 on June 27, 2018, 04:20:36 PM
I thought the term started with the 64 GTO.

I've always thought it started with the 1963 Plymouth Sport Fury 426 Max but it wasn't as popular as the 64 GTO therefore never got the Muscle Car connotation.
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: dannystarr on June 27, 2018, 04:55:11 PM
FYI, to clarify, I myself was talking about the naming of a PONY CAR debate. As far as I always knew growing up the first MUSCLE car was the GTO. But NOW I can't imagine it NOT being the Max Wedge. Popularity contest might have been it. I guess it's all personal pref... Danny
Title: Re: "muscle car" without posi
Post by: ggtsvnv on June 29, 2018, 02:03:01 AM
If the formula is big engine, hipo parts from the factory, light weight body, than why not a 57 Chevy 210 with the fuel injected 283? The 210 was lighter than the Belair 283 was the biggest engine Chevy had and with fuel injection (exotic at the time) made one horsepower per cubic inch of displacement. That was big news for 1957. I think this is a subject that could be debated until the end of time and you won't find a consensus to it. I feel most do agree that it was the 64 gto that started it. However horsepower wars were going on before that.