CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: dannystarr on May 07, 2018, 03:02:30 AM
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Holley 4053 Carb is leaking fuel out of the secondary shaft on BOTH sides. This is a 780 Vacuum secondary. Carb was just rebuilt 200 miles ago. Car will not start without starting fluid, seems flooded out, then when it starts, the leaks stop. Turn off the car and the leak starts again???. WTF!! WAS running great until this morning. Pulled both bowls and cleaned the needle and seat, no change... Danny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRwMvd4wr9U
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What size power valve was installed in the rear metering block? By chance is there 2 gaskets under the power valve? Assuming its a 4519 block. Make sure the pv is still good also if correct size for your vacuum.
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I would check the float site port first. If it is overflowing float or seat problem. If not you have an internal leak. There are ports in the block that bleed to below the throttle plates. If the get blocked or stopped up the fuel rises and comes out above the plates and leaks out the shaft. If this is it when you shut down the vac no longer draws the fuel down through the plates and it puddles and leaks. Look down the secondary to see if gas is sitting there. usually is it is the float or seat you would have it coming out the vent. Keep you fire extinquisher handy and wear safety glasses.
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I tried to find a pic but could not but if you pull the metering block and trace the ports you should see the problem.
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So it was fine for maybe 25 starts. Fired right up every time no problem. I pulled both bowls and cleaned the needle and seats and set the float levels. I didn't see any obvious dirt in either bowl. Carb was JUST rebuilt, all internal parts are new. Doubt if it's heat exspansion as it does it on start-up, after running for only 30 seconds. So no time to heat up. My last thing to check is to cut in my liquid filled Marshall fuel pressure gauge and see if the regulator has failed. Going to TRY to check the pressure tonight. Will update.. Hoping that is the issue. If not then I will pull the carb plates. I have my extinguisher right by me, it is the one Chick recommended that has much easier clean-up after use. .. Danny
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I was under the impression this was a rebuild on a new setup. Check your pv. If it has failed then it will do what you describe.
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check the little "o" rings on the needle & seat assemblies. they get hard and brittle and don't seal.
they are a difficult piece to find separately.
best to replace the needle and seat assemblies.
i've got some from this guy and they work great. fast shipping too.
these are correct for 4053 carb.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163018429248?ViewItem=&vxp=mtr&item=163018429248
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I have bought from those guys. They have the odd parts and know what they are talking about. I used to wonder if the carb resto guys really had all the bolts,screws and small parts plated. Look at BPT,s bulk parts and you can see that they just replace them all. If you had several carbs to do the bulk packs are pretty reasonable.
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Update... Pulled the carb, and took apart. Cleaned the metering blocks with carb cleaner and air. Tested both PV's and they are good. Cleaned the needles and seats. Set the float bowl levels parallel with the bowl body. Reassembled and installed. Fired it up in the garage for 5 seconds, shut it off, STILL leaking in the same spot. New Needle and seat COULD be faulty. So I will change that next. Also will adjust the floats while installed. Was told by the rebuilder that the secondary ball bearing fell out during rebuild and he just left it out. I guess I don't need it?... Danny
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You could set it on the bench, add fuel through the secondary vent and look in with a flash light to see where the fuel is coming in. Must be above the throttle plates to cause the leak at the shaft. If the small ports, slots to small holes, in the base plate are blocked it will cause fuel to rise and flow out. It happened to me. It was a hole in gasket that was slightly off but swelled when wet. Do not smoke while doing this.LOL
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Update... Pulled the carb, and took apart. Cleaned the metering blocks with carb cleaner and air. Tested both PV's and they are good. Cleaned the needles and seats. Set the float bowl levels parallel with the bowl body. Reassembled and installed. Fired it up in the garage for 5 seconds, shut it off, STILL leaking in the same spot. New Needle and seat COULD be faulty. So I will change that next. Also will adjust the floats while installed. Was told by the rebuilder that the secondary ball bearing fell out during rebuild and he just left it out. I guess I don't need it?... Danny
I am under the assumption that Holley would not have that ball in there if it wasn't necessary. Manufacturers in general only install or assemble what there product needs to operate in the best possible way. If they didn't they could cut more corners.
Businesses that say you don't need something that originally came with you product, usually only say this if they have broken or misplaced an item. If it is more of an optional piece, they give you this option as they rebuilding. I would be skeptical if I heard any part fell out, and they just put to back together without it.
Now I have rebuilt many carbs, and had my fair share of trifles. Haven't had your problem (yet). I assume the secondary throttle plates are adjusted, where you just have a tiny square showing on the inside of the bore of the carb? (secondary slot adjustment)
The other thing I would verify is that all the gasket surfaces are square. I would check the bottom body of the carb, and the base plate with a straight edge, if the is a slight leak, it could be in between those 2 mating surfaces and the gasket, and exiting out the shaft. Also when assembled if it was not torqued down evenly one side could be tighter than the other causing a leak as well.
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Get new pv gaskets,put a coating of vasoline on them and reinstall carefully.Start the pv,turn the metering block so the pv is pointed down and position the gasket so it is centered on the pv,not up on the ridge. Snug it up firmly, do not go too tight.
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Update...
50 year old Holley 780 Vacuum Secondary
This problem just started out of the blue. Car was running great. Now does not start without starting fluid. And fuel leaks out of the secondary shaft on both sides ONLY after I turn the engine off.
Cut-in liquid filled Marshall fuel pressure gauge, gauge reads
5.5 at idle. So regulator has NOT failed.
Changed Needle and seat in both bowls
Tested both power valves, they are good. Installed with new gaskets.
Cleaned the metering blocks with carb cleaner and air
Power valves are 6.5, Vacuum at an idle is 11, Close enough for now, I can put 5.5’s in later. Needle stays VERY steady.
When I slowly rev the engine to 3K the vacuum jumps to 17, when I rack the throttle the vacuum drops to 7. I believe this is normal.
Float bowls fuel level at sight screw BARELY comes over the bottom of the female threads at an idle.
Secondary blades had NO slot clearance showing. I adjusted JUST so the opening was the sum of the width of the rectangular slot. The Primary blades have a Strong 1/8th of an inch showing.
Carb Rebuilder left out a ball bearing in the secondary’s, I remember seeing that pop out on me once. I put it back, as I didn’t even know it was there. THIS carb, does not have that ball. DO I NEED IT? WHAT IS IT?
While engine is running at idle, the inside of the carb is DRY! All blades are dry. When I turn the engine off, fuel begins to drop in from up at the squirters and cover the secondary blades… THEN drip out of the shaft on each side.
WHY do I always get these weird glitches in my carbs?? I am done for the day. Under a house the last two days for 11 hours total!! My back hurts :'( Danny
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If fuel is dripping from the boosters,it is usually loose bowl screws.After new gaskets are put in,snug all the bowl screws up after a few heat cycles. Ask the rebuilder where that ball bearing was located.Was it in the bowl above the pump diaphragm?
It also sounds like your throttle shafts are worn out.
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As it was only just rebuilt, I would have gone back to the rebuilder to get the issue diagnosed and fixed to your satisfaction; however as you've taken it apart again yourself, very much doubt whoever did it will honour their rebuild warranty. Not that this helps, but was going to suggest you contact the rebuilder......
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That ball is a check valve. Get it back in. At least you know now where the fuel is leaking. Not familiar with the check ball , maybe it blocks your booster port. I also think that booster screw is special.
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If I am reading this right, fuel is coming out of the accelerator pump squirter nozzles, not the boosters.
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He did say that.My thought was it probably dripping from the boosters though. It makes some sense,especially if he hadn't snugged the bowl screws back up.He mentioned it was not a problem at first. I've never heard of shooters dripping when the car was off. The boosters,yes.
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Now that I think about it, if the accelerator pump was adjusted so there was tension on the pump lever at rest, could it be forcing fuel up thru the shooter when the engine was off?
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Now that I think about it, if the accelerator pump was adjusted so there was tension on the pump lever at rest, could it be forcing fuel up thru the shooter when the engine was off?
Yes I think so.
I think there is more than one issue going on with this carb. What gaskets were used?
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Now that I think about it, if the accelerator pump was adjusted so there was tension on the pump lever at rest, could it be forcing fuel up thru the shooter when the engine was off?
The accelerator pump lever should always have tension on it at rest. Slack at all will cause a flat spot. The adjustment spec is there to prevent bottoming out at wide open throttle AND prevent any slack in the linkage. They should not pump out fuel at all when the car is shut off.
Cold engine shut off and still pumps fuel out the accelerator nozzles will eliminate heat as a source of the problem.
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Not from what I have done for 40 years. No tension. Touching - but no tension.
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Aggree, touching, but able to move the arm back and forth. Over adjustment sounds like the problem, also wouldnt be getting the full shot of fuel(30 cc is it ?)....flat.
Thought the old 4053's had base plate issues. Also metering blocks don't stay true forever. We use vitron tipped needle and seats. And have a box of the "reusable" bowl and block gaskets in the trailer. Used to be blue, now come in black.
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Guys the issue is with the secondary side unless I am completely wrong with what Danny is describing. On a 4053 there is no accelerator pump & no squirter on the secondaries. Replace the needle and seat, reset the float level, replace the pv along with gasket. Report back and I bet the issue will be resolved assuming the secondary throttle blades haven't been adjusted correctly. Also the check ball is for the secondary diaphragm pod. No offense Danny but when you started having issues you should have either pulled the carb for someone to inspect or reached out to someone to come help you with the diagnosis.. There is some mis-identifying of part names causing an issue of people trying to help solve the your problem. Holley carbs are one of the most basic carbs on the market and also one of the easiest to tune.
Also while we are at it on the primary accelerator pump adjustment. At WOT you should have 0.015" additional travel on the arm. That is just as important as having instant pressure applied by the arm to the diaphragm vs just touching the diaphragm.
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Yes that’s absolutely correct Darrell.
I always think double pumper. That what I am running on my car now, an 850 cfm that flows just a bit more than that.
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Good catch Darrell.OP get rid of that liquid filled gauge.Check your pressure again, the bowl screws,and the pv gaskets.I'm not sure if your setting your float level correctly.Call Holley or better yet a good carb shop to make sure on your method.And I think your baseplate/throttle shafts are worn.
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FYI if the shafts were worn then it would be a vacuum leak.. Has nothing to do with fuel being pulled into the venturi. More so the lack of fuel being pulled in.. Also Secondary shafts very rarely wear like the primaries.. Also nothing wrong with liquid filled gauge as long as heat isn't involved with the accuracy..
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Who says he does not have a vacuum leak? Shafts should not leak gas. As far as liquid filled gauges, I've seen on my own car as well as one other they can be a problem.When I ran one,I was told by more than one respected stock eliminator racer to get it off my car.
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???
Im not gonna get in a pissing match but you do not know what you are talking about.
Good luck and I hope you get it figured out Danny..
As for the liquid filled gauge you are comparing stock eliminator racers to average enthusiasts.. I will stand behind my statement when heat isn't an issue. Racing is a completely different scenario and I am aware of both.
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Update... There is some good points here, and as always, I have learned a lot. If I can float my own boat for a few lines... I am a 25 year Journeyman Plumber, with an enormous amount of common sense, mechanical ability and working knowledge in all trades. I had top secret clearance on some nuclear carriers back in the early 90's. I don't watch sports. Never seen a football game all the way thru. In 58 years, never been high, was the lead singer of a rock band for 7 years and never did any drugs, had BAGS of Cocaine passed under my nose, never tried it, never experimented with ANYTHING. I drink 20 beers a year, and maybe the same glasses of wine. I AM a MACHINE!! People ask me how I know SO much about SO many things. I tell them cause I am not sitting in front of the TV all weekend for the last 30 years watching sports ;D Someone called me and asked me why HOT water was coming out of the cold side of their faucet. And I knew in ONE second what the cause was. But... I am just not a great CAR mechanic, a shade tree mechanic at best. I used to really like 500 Carter AFB's and when a Holley is set-up, it really is great. I never rebuilt an engine in auto shop. I am still learning.. I don't like to see you guys get heated. So sorry about that..
With that said... I ALWAYS seem to get these crazy little gremlins, it never fails.
Of course when I looked inside the carb and seen the secondary blades covered in fresh fuel... I then looked outside the shaft on both sides and fuel began to slowly come out. If you look at my video from my first post, you will see it. So if the blades are closed, and you walk out and spill a little fuel in the secondary side of the carb, it WILL come out both sides. And I do remember setting up my other carb with the 15 thousands on wide open throttle on the accelerator pump. You need SOME play or it may bottom out. But not my issue as this is vacuum secondary as mentioned previously. Sprayed the throttle shaft at an idle and no change, so no vac leak there. Installed another pressure gauge made by Holley, and it read the same as the Marshall. The Quick-Fuel regulator comes preset at 6.5. When I cut it into the line, the Marshall read exactly 6.5! It seems to be a good one.
I took the carb off of Raquel and put it on Melissa. I then took the carb back to the rebuilder Friday. I drove the car to him today at 3pm and we installed the carb back on. Fired it up and let it run a minute. Shut it down and there was NO leakage, and the throttle blades stayed dry. Fired it back up and let it run for a while to operating temp, shut it off, STILL no leakage. I asked him what he did and he said he put the ball back in the secondary pod. And he said he cleaned and looked at EVERYTHING he possibly could and found no issue. So decided the only internal moving part was the PV, so he changed it. I was going to do that next as my vac is 11 at an idle. So I was going to change out the 6.5's and throw in some 5.5's or 6.0's. Maybe even 5.0.. My PV tester has no gauge. So maybe it just held for a second, and I thought it was good and released it and watched it bounce back. You can bet I am going to go get a good one ASAP.
I wish I knew for sure if it was the ball or the PV. Drove it home 15 miles, pulled it in the garage and checked again, no leakage. Issue at least for now is solved. Hope it stays that way. Thanx to all of you for the help. Stay tuned for a new post on the new car, and everything I have done to it since Easter... Danny
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Glad it is fixed. You may never know what the problem was. Next time post some pics so people will know what you actually have. The rear pump stuff really got people wondering.
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I'm glad to hear it's fixed Danny. I've been watching this post from the start because mine does something similar. Can anybody who knows the 4053 explain what ball Danny might be talking about in the secondary? Thank you, Joe
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Secondary diaphragm check ball
(http://oldcarmanualproject.com/manuals/Carbs/Holley/H4V-4150-60-80/MCarbHollB150_Dir/MCarbHollB150_Picture22.jpg)
Check ball is used to limit the amount of air the diaphragm sees and allows a more progressive opening of the secondaries. If the check ball was left out it would not cause the issue that Danny was having. Diaphragm still holds the secondaries in closed position through the use of the spring. It requires velocity of air traveling across the venturi in order for the diaphragm & secondaries to work. Simply revving the engine does not create the amount velocity for the secondaries to open unless to go WOT and even then it is very minimal. Most than likely the pv was the issue in this case.
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I have replaced sec vac diaphrams and really did not notice the ball. Looks like it might keep a backfire from blowing the sec diaphragm also. I agree with DW that the check ball was most likely not the problem.
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Some carbs have it some don't. Just depends on how its circuited.. But for this discussion the 4053 has the check ball and is needed to work correctly as per how it was engineered.
EDIT:
I have posted this before and is a good starting point in understanding how a Holley works.. There are more detailed articles out there but this one is good.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0807-holley-carburetors-basics-guide/ (http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0807-holley-carburetors-basics-guide/)
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Quick question while we are on carbs: do the new holley 4053's come with blow out protection?
Had a lead on my oe carb but trail ended up cold. So picked up a new one last month. Emailed holley, waiting on reply. Vendor was not 100% sure.
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I can't say for certain but you can pull the baseplate off and verify by looking for the valve. I am pretty sure all carbs built now have them but I would still double check for piece of mind. Waiting on Holley for a response may take a while FWIW. They also offer a kit to install the valve into older carbs as well.
Image pulled from Google search.
(http://www.civilianjeep.info/Holley/IMAGES/transfer03.gif)
Holley 125-500
https://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/125-500/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710509952&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=pla-194396695511&CATARGETID=230006180037474968&cadevice=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9v3D5PKH2wIVxJyzCh3UeAD1EAQYASABEgJQiPD_BwE (https://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/125-500/10002/-1?CAWELAID=1710509952&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15769068431&CATCI=pla-194396695511&CATARGETID=230006180037474968&cadevice=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI9v3D5PKH2wIVxJyzCh3UeAD1EAQYASABEgJQiPD_BwE)
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Good to know on the check ball. THAT'S why the rebuilder said you really don't HAVE to have it. But glad it's back in if 4053's are supposed to have them. I have installed 6 of those 125-500 kits so far, in my cars and on some friends carbs. I DID make a mistake and installed/drilled one in the wrong place. Car would NOT run below high speed idle. So be careful when installing for correct location. I have bought 1 of the new 4053's and it did NOT come with that protection. I called Holley and they said they are not in there, and the tech didn't know why it wasn't in all new carbs. I can just about bet it won't be there. Just order the kit. MAKE SURE you set the bit depth stop accurately. I am sure you will. It is a tricky measurement. Thanx again to all... Danny
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Ok, thanks. On the shelf, so i will take a look later.
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I am running 3 Holleys now without the protection. I have had a blown out PV years ago but I think it takes a serious back fire.