CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Mild Modifications => Topic started by: Dusk_Blue_Z on April 30, 2018, 01:49:17 AM

Title: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on April 30, 2018, 01:49:17 AM
I purchased an NOS LT-1 short block. Upon inspection, I found a few items that need to be addressed. Was hoping you can provide some guidance.

1. The engine was wrapped in an oily wax paper, which disintegrated over the years and fell into the engine. I've pulled the engine apart and vacuumed much of it out. Would it be OK to power wash the block? If so, do I use soap? Do I need to worry about getting the cam bearings wet? If not power washing, what do you recommend?

2. The engine had been cranked over by hand. There are some oil marks on the rod bearings. Should I get new rod bearings? The main bearings look new.

3. I was given a set of head shims. Are they OK to use or should I get a modern head gasket?

This NOS engine is super cool to look at. It has all kinds of paint splatter and markings on it. I almost feel bad putting it to use. But I'm curious how a little torque is going to feel compared to my 302  ;D

Thanks! Nick
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: ko-lek-tor on April 30, 2018, 02:43:23 AM
Nick
1) take the engine apart and put the power wash to her. Use gunk or similar brand engine degreaser or even can use oven cleaner.  It would be a good idea to remove all block oil galley plugs. No, it will not hurt cam bearings ( or shouldn’t). I would inspect everything nonetheless before reassembly. A compressor to dry off the block and if you have a rifle cleaning brush, run it through the oil galleys. All cavities should be blown out after being washed. And you really don’t need a high pressure sprayer. Regardless of garden hose or h p spray, if you are not soaked and as wet as the block when through, you were not thorough enough.
2) as long as bearing surfaces are not damaged, reuse. Don’t worry about discoloration. Some brakecleen or carb cleaner could be tried to se if it takes off the stains, by all means do not sand or use any abrasive or lint from rags. Best to blow them dry and set out to reinstall. I am a little particular in that I keep everything, bearings-bolts-nuts- rockers in order and put everything back in it’s same place. So each bearing goes back from where it came.
3) I have no idea what shins you are referring to, but newer technology gasket materials are superior, so I would use new gaskets.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on April 30, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
Thanks for the advice Bentley. I degreased the engine this morning, rinsed with a hose, and spent a lot of time blowing it off/out. I'll reuse the bearings and buy some newer head gaskets. The shims I was referring to are GM p/n 3916336, basically steel head gaskets.

I have a windage tray and oil pan that goes with it. Both these parts are used. The tray has surface rust. Should I be concerned with getting all the surface rust removed?

Sorry my questions are random. This is my first time 'building' an engine.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: cook_dw on April 30, 2018, 03:00:27 PM
Use Cometic MLS head gaskets.  They are great and seal.  Fel-Pro has some MLS gaskets also but no experience using them.


Evaporust the tray. 
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: BULLITT65 on April 30, 2018, 04:02:25 PM
I also like the Cometic MLS head gaskets. Money well spent
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: ko-lek-tor on April 30, 2018, 04:57:43 PM
I am trying to think of the proper tank. So far, all I can think of is a small garbage/waste can. If metal, line with a good garbage bag. It does not matter if the oil pan doesn’t fit all the way down in the can as long as it can go 1/2 way(so you can later pull the part out and invert and put other end to soak. While A product called Evaporust works very well and is ballyhooed by many for how well it works. But I would suggest going to the dollar store a buying 6-7 gallon jugs of white vinegar. One of those kitchen plastic waste baskets, like Rubbermaid, would seem ideal to me.  Empty the vinegar into the waste can and imerse the pan making sure at least 1/2 is submerged. Let pan sit in the vinegar 1-2 days and perhaps longer if very rusty. I use old tooth brushes and wire brushes to scour crevices.  After soaking, remove and hose off pan. Sprinkle baking soda over the outside surface to neutralize the vinegar and aid in drying. Inside the pan spray the whole inner surface with a awD40 type product. Blow off baking soda. Make sure no contaminates are in the inside of the pan. Wipe down with s clean lint free rag and alcohol. Install pan paint on engine. Paint. If you want to over restore the pan, you could prime the outer surface and apply putty sand and spray 2 stage urethane. Or powder coat. Rattle can is my preference.
My reasoning: most all the the tools needed to use Evaporust are the same as what vinegar would use. The vinegar is about a $1.25 a gallon. Evaporust = $20+
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Kelley W King on April 30, 2018, 05:42:40 PM
I have yet to try the vinegar Bentley but I will. If it does not work I like vinegar in my pinto beans.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on April 30, 2018, 05:50:24 PM
Awesome, thanks again. I'll give vinegar a shot. If that doesn't work, then try Evaporust.

Here's another one I can't find literature on: is it necessary to degree in a NOS GM camshaft? Did they get degreed in at the assembly plant?

Thanks! Nick
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: BULLITT65 on April 30, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
Another idea for a soaking container would be those plastic totes that come with lids. You can find them in all sorts of sizes at walmart. I would think one of the medium long flat ones would work for an oil pan, you could do the top half, soak and then flip it, and have a little more room to work with it. If you got a deeper one, like what they sell for Christmas stuff, then you could soak and put the lid on it if you were worried about fumes/odor.

Bentley has the right idea though, there are many products other than evapo-rust that will get it done.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: ko-lek-tor on April 30, 2018, 09:42:45 PM
Awesome, thanks again. I'll give vinegar a shot. If that doesn't work, then try Evaporust.

Here's another one I can't find literature on: is it necessary to degree in a NOS GM camshaft? Did they get degreed in at the assembly plant?

Thanks! Nick

Degree- not done at factory. Not necessary. But make sure chain is on right, aligning the marks. If you have those kind of tools ( dial indicator) once you button up the bottom end , put timing cover on and balancer, I believe that finding true TDC and making sure your timing marks align is more important. If you have an adjustable cam you could make sure the cam is running straight up, meaning the cam opens and closes to spec or very close. If you don’t have an adjustable chain, there is no point in doing anything because you couldn’t do anything to change it without modifying timing set. My opinion, stick it in there and go. This applies to stock GM cams. High lift should always be checked for Valve to Piston clearance. I would say as a rule anything over .520 lift on a sbc.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: cook_dw on May 01, 2018, 02:11:06 AM
The OCD in me would degree the cam anyways.  That way you know where it is and what you have at the given duration, centerline, LSA.  Degree wheels are cheap and handy.  But if you do not care about all the technical stuff then just slap it together and align the marks, verify TDC and the marks align on the timing gears and again on the timing tab and balancer.  Of course I also believe in adjustable timing sets so you can adjust the cam in relation to the rotating assembly.  I like tunability on how I want the engine to perform with a given cam.


A small tip would be to soak the timing chain in a zip-lock baggie of oil so the chain is having a dry start.  Helps against the initial chain stretch.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: BillOhio on May 03, 2018, 03:59:36 PM
how about some pictures of the paint markings
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 03, 2018, 05:30:34 PM
The vinegar method is sweet. I soaked some parts overnight. I should have done a before/after. Attached is a pic of the after, I still need to wipe it down some. I used a vinegar concentrate cleaner from Menards.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 03, 2018, 05:32:45 PM
Here are some pics of the markings I mentioned. Again, I probably should have taken more before I cleaned the block up.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 03, 2018, 05:33:32 PM
Side
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 03, 2018, 05:34:17 PM
Otherside
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 03, 2018, 05:35:13 PM
A stamping
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 03, 2018, 05:36:45 PM
The pistons all have letters written on them. Here's one with an 'H', they are in the 1-3-5-7 cylinders. 2-4 have 'G' and 6-8 have a 'J'.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: maroman on May 03, 2018, 09:04:41 PM
What is the ingredients of the vinegar concentrate? I buy vinegar at the grocery by the gallon.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 03, 2018, 11:05:45 PM
It's called Austin's Cleaning Vinegar. When I bought it, it didn't list the acidity level, I just assumed it was higher than the 5% that's in white vinegar. Also, the label warned against drinking it.

Here's the website: http://austinsbleach.com/product/cleaning-vinegar/

I'm not a scientist nor do I play one on TV, but the Safety Data Sheet lists Acetic Acid at 4-6%, the remainder is water. I noticed on the white vinegar label is listed acidity of 5%, but I don't know if that's acetic acid or something other acid.

The Austin's was $1.79 a quart.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: maroman on May 04, 2018, 12:46:23 AM
Thanks, I will look for it. As I said, I've been using plain white for several years and it works great.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: KurtS on May 14, 2018, 04:03:08 PM
Pretty sure the letters on the pistons is for sizing.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: ko-lek-tor on May 15, 2018, 12:35:04 AM
Pretty sure the letters on the pistons is for sizing.
X2
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: JKZ27 on May 17, 2018, 12:56:15 AM
Pretty sure the letters on the pistons is for sizing.
X2

Kurt, Bentley, or Nick, would there be corresponding letter marks or stamps on the block to match piston to bore? I remember 4.0 Jeep 6cyls had hand written letters, A,B,C,D, to indicate finished bore size range.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 31, 2018, 12:52:18 AM
Hi, sorry to bring this thread back up, but I've exhausted all search combinations and cannot find an answer. For some reason, the front end of the NOS engine crank is exactly 0.5" shorter than two 1178's I measured. Which is why I'm having trouble putting the balancer on...

Does anyone have insight on this? Would I be better asking the Nasty Z28 community?

So frustrating!!!
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on May 31, 2018, 12:03:30 PM
After sleeping on it, I've accepted the 302 and 350 cranks have different size snouts. Like many of the interchangeable parts on these SBC's, I figured the snouts would be the same size. Sorry for the rant above.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Kelley W King on May 31, 2018, 12:15:47 PM
Something I did not know. Is this a way we could identify a 302 assembled? With or without the balancer on. Maybe post some pics.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Stingr69 on May 31, 2018, 12:37:03 PM
Looking at Colvin's book - Overall length of the SBC cranks should be between 24.71" and 24.73".  Might not cover all the applications but it is a dimension for you to check.  We probably need more 350 crank dimension data points to check before assuming your crank is typical.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Stingr69 on May 31, 2018, 12:39:28 PM
What problem are you having installing the damper?
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on June 01, 2018, 01:48:39 AM
The dampener was bottoming out, either on the first main journal or the getting hung up on one of the keys. For some reason I though the balancer went all the way on, nearly being flush with the timing chain cover. I'm about 3/8" off the timing cover now. Its on as far as she'll go.

Next I'm going to install the water pump and pulley's to see how that lines up.

I'll measure the 350 and 302 cranks and see how they stack up.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: z28z11 on June 01, 2018, 01:51:25 AM
Something I did not know. Is this a way we could identify a 302 assembled? With or without the balancer on. Maybe post some pics.

Better way to guess is the flywheel flange of the crank - easy to see even with the pan on, front cover on, balancer could be installed, too; flywheel flange notch is specific to the 1178 Z28 forging. Very easy to identify at a glance -

Regards,
Steve
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Stingr69 on June 01, 2018, 03:29:24 PM
The dampener was bottoming out, either on the first main journal or the getting hung up on one of the keys. For some reason I though the balancer went all the way on, nearly being flush with the timing chain cover. I'm about 3/8" off the timing cover now. Its on as far as she'll go.

Next I'm going to install the water pump and pulley's to see how that lines up.

I'll measure the 350 and 302 cranks and see how they stack up.

Remove keys and try installing damper again to see if that was the issue.  If it goes in farther, you know the keys were the culprit.

The other possible issue is how far the bottom timing gear has been installed.  If gear is not on all the way, you will be too far out on the damper when it stops against the gear. That pushes the damper and pulleys out of alignment.  When your damper contacts the gear, thats the bottom.  One side of the gear has a relief for the radius on the crank but the other side of the gear typically does not.

Crank snout length is not the problem here. it does not play a part in this issue.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on June 01, 2018, 10:36:33 PM
you can tell I'm an amateur. Now that you mention the timing gear, that's probably the 0.5" difference I'm getting. Thanks.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Stingr69 on June 02, 2018, 12:39:09 PM
If the gear is not flush with the crank land, it is not on far enough. Be sure the beveled side of the gear bore is facing the inside of the engine.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on June 02, 2018, 09:23:14 PM
I mocked up the alternator, fan pulley, and installed the belt. Alignment looks great.

Can someone point me in the direction on how to remove the valve cover emblems?
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Dusk_Blue_Z on June 25, 2018, 10:59:37 PM
Thought I'd share an update to the crate engine LT-1. Today was dyno day and she produced 369hp (6k) and 368 torque (4300) in stock trim (sans exhaust manifolds). Pretty close to the factory ratings.

Sprung a few oil leaks, but was glad to see this one come alive.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Kelley W King on June 26, 2018, 11:58:08 AM
I have always felt the GM guys did a good job with their HP engines. The LT1, L79, L78, ect. It just seems the factory heads ,intake, cam, and carb just work together well for power and streetability. Getting a little 302 to do what it does and still make a beer run is hard to beat.
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: firstgenaddict on August 16, 2018, 07:17:23 AM
White vinegar works great... also CITRIC ACID comes in dry powder form used for CANNING vegetables.
One jar at Walmart is about $2 and will make about 2 gallons of rust remover solution... works like EVAPORUST and is about 25X cheaper. 
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: 69Z28-RS on August 16, 2018, 12:54:13 PM
If the gear is not flush with the crank land, it is not on far enough. Be sure the beveled side of the gear bore is facing the inside of the engine.

I've never examined the back side of the crank gear (if I ever did it was so long ago I can't recall it).   The little 'timing dot' has to be the outside in order to align the crank and cam gears, so the bevel must be on the inside if one does that...
Title: Re: NOS Engine
Post by: Stingr69 on August 16, 2018, 01:23:56 PM
If the gear is not flush with the crank land, it is not on far enough. Be sure the beveled side of the gear bore is facing the inside of the engine.

I've never examined the back side of the crank gear (if I ever did it was so long ago I can't recall it).   The little 'timing dot' has to be the outside in order to align the crank and cam gears, so the bevel must be on the inside if one does that...

True. I had trouble once with pulley alignment on a build and had to tear it back apart to look at everything.  That crank radius/gear bevel observation came after a lot of head scratching.  If someone else is having issues, something is probably installed wrong.