CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: woodcam on February 13, 2018, 07:29:18 PM
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Newbe here. I just purchased two 69 camaros which are supposed to be ss/rs 396 4 speed cars. One is a matching number car and the other does not have the original engine but does have the transmission. From the CRG web site if found where the partial vin's should be on the engines and transmissions and I have verified that they match the vin on the cars. My question is around the cowl tags.
The green car cowl tag has the following on it
ST 69 12437 NOR179004 BDY
TR 711 59 B PNT
11C.
Does the 11C mean that is was built in Nov of 1968 third week
The green one also has a fold down rear seat. Where would I verify that option?
The gold car cowl tag has the following on it:
ST69 12437 NOR 238290 BDY The first two numbers after the NOR are very hard to read in the picture and I think they are 23
TR 727 65 PNT
11D
Neither of these cowl tags have X codes - would that be normal for that date of construction?
With the limited information on the cowl tags where would I look to see the options of the car.
The green car is ac and the gold one does not have ac.
From all the parts we have gathered from the site and the storage building there seems to be two complete cars. Some of the parts are NOS like two front fenders, two cowl hoods, two rear quarters, inner fenders, upper and lower front valances
I will try and post pictures and I'm sure I will have lots of other questions.
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Should be 68 builds, and would not have an X code on the tag. The only info which can be deduced from the tags are engine, (V8) , paint color, top color, and interior style/color. What are the VINs?
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Examine the bulk heads closely for any grease pencil markings. Just one clue. Sometimes hard to read and may take different lighting to bring it out. Norwood was writing on them before the X code usage on the trim tags. Hopefully the area hasn't been disturbed.
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In other words, look for grease pencil markings after removing the rear seat. Look along the top edge of the metal structure, behind where the top of the upper seat would be.
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Vin numbers are 124379N552748 and 12437N543837. What will that be able to tell me? The o e witbout the matching engi e is 543837
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Ditto the rear bulkhead check for X coding - it will help determine a bit more of the puzzle. The VIN's are not going to give you a lot of help.
I can see on the one with no front end sheet metal what appears to be a Muncie speedo cable position, and a twin fuel line, which rules in a 325 or 350 horse motor (or a 350 SB). Any evidence of black paint on the rear cove panels, under the trunk edge on the corners ?
If one or both cars have style trim, side rain gutter moldings will show that as well. If the original rear ends are with the cars, should be 12 bolts, both will likely have dual exhaust plates welded to the rear frames in the outer wheel houses behind the tires.
Post more pics when you can - most all of us love detective work.
Regards,
Steve
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Cool find. Tell us more. How many fuel lines? Pretty neat if both of them are BB cars. Pretty obvious the green one is a low-r horse with a/c
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The only info which can be deduced from the tags are engine, (V8) , paint color, top color, and interior style/color.
The trim tag doesn't identify L6 or V8 engine for a '69 Camaro (apart from some of the Norwood X-codes that denote certain V8's, for which these builds are too early), but the VINs do.
Neat projects!
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The VIN numbers do tell you that they are in the lost NCRS numbers so you might not waste your time. My 12A car does have the X code behind the seat but since the seller made a big deal of it I am not positive it was done at the factory.
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The VIN numbers do tell you that they are in the lost NCRS numbers so you might not waste your time. My 12A car does have the X code behind the seat but since the seller made a big deal of it I am not positive it was done at the factory.
Kelly,
Just an OT comment for you - The original grease crayon marks on mine were so old as to be dusty soft, almost "chalk like" in condition. They could be 70% wiped away with a wipe of your hand. You can't fake that age. Fresh crayon is not going to be like that and none of it will be under old glue spray. Your results may vary of course.
-Mark.
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A few more questions. What are the lost NCRS numbers mean. Both cars do have the original rear ends in them. I have about all the parts for both cars. I bought them from an older gentleman who bought the gold one in 1971 and had an accident in it in 1979. He had it shipped to Texas where it has sat in that garage since 1980. The owner has told me they were both 396 325 hp cars. I will post more pictures when i can. We still have not extracated the gold car from the garage yet because of all the stuff we are having to move around it. And the condition of the garage falling in. In the 80S he began purchasing parts from chevy like the fenders, hoods and quarter pannels brake lines, trim , etc however they have surface rust on them due to the damp garage.
What we have been told the gold car is a 396 325 hp 4 speed car rs/ss car. It has the console still in it with white bucket seats. All the hidaway headlight pieces are there except that the vacuum canistiers are rusted badly and i doubt they will hold vacuum. The green one is supposed to be a 396 325 hp with four speed. The interior is all there and it was an ac car with black interior and a fold down rear seat. He doesnt have the original engine in it but a 454 out of a truck.
Last question doe these have enough value or rarity to restor back to original or will it hurt to convert the vacuum systen for the hidaway lights to electric?
I have never had any thing like this so i have never had to make that type of decision. My other ca aro is a pro touring style with a 408 ls and a six speed however it started life as a 6 cylider with a 3 speed in the tree?
Any advice would be appreciated?. I have no doubt the orininal owner is telling the truth i just want to be able to prove what they were originally and if they are rarer to perserve them. Or dont worry about it and just modernize them
Thanks
Woody
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Check out this link and site for the NCRS info. There are some early VIN's that are not available including yours. That is what Kelley is referring to. "1969 Camaro 9N508855 to 9N587275" are missing and not available.
Congrats on your two new projects, very nice finds!
Just my opinion but I would definitely restore back to original the one with the original engine/drivetrain, especially with it being a RS/SS, Big Block, 4 speed, A/C car. I personally like the frost green cars with black vinyl top and the black interior. It would be a beauty!
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=11724.0
https://www.chevymuscledocs.com/
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Woody,
I believe your thinking is pretty straight. BB cars are always sought after, more so if you can prove what they are or how they were optioned. For the one with the missing engine, you can plan either way (modified or stock) and not really detract from the car or the value significantly, but the A/C car would likely be better restored if it indeed has a lot of the original equipment. Pretty desirable combination in my estimation. Both cars look like good candidates for restoration - nice find and a good purchase.
My BB SS L78 car is one of those that the NCRS paperwork skipped (12A '68 build). One week shy of the X codes, it's most saving grace is the original block is still with the car, but I would sure like to know what dealer it was sold through in Illinois. The search goes on - you can never find enough info on these cars, which is a lot of the fun in owning them. Good luck and keep us informed on what you discover, and send pics.
Regards,
Steve
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I would do them back to what they were new. I have a X66 "born with" drive train car that I bought in 1981. Back then I added every option I could get my hands on. I've since sold all the options that were not original to the car and now in the process of restoring it to "as sold new" condition. The car I have is possibly a dealer demo. I'll be looking forward to more pictures of your find. It all looks exciting....Joe
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You could liquidate one to Support the other.
Around Here the desire tends toward originality, so with these higher option cars it make sense to lean that direction. As always it depends on your end needs -vs- wants.
But my short answer is Restore them Both!
Cheers & Welcome to CRG.
Jim
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On the transmission where the partial vin is stamped it starts with a 1 is that right? eg. 19N552748 where my VIN is 124379N552748. Shouldn't it be 79N552748?? The date code is P9S27A so that would be a Muncie M20 built in Nov 27th 1968. and my car date is 11D. This is fun learning about the parts on the car and when they were manufactured.
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I might be wrong, but I think that the 1 stands for Chevrolet and is correct in preceding the 9 for '69 model year and N for Norwood assembly plant, followed of course by your car's VIN.
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Partial VIN on drivetrain components (where applicable) followed the same format as the hidden partials on the sheetmetal in 2 locations:
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#PartialVIN
and
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#PartialVINs
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Here is a picture of the bulk head behind the rear seat on the gold car. It looks to me to have an X 2 written on it under the glue. Would that further verify it was a 396 SS. It does have two fuel lines under the car. The guy I bought the car from purchased it in 1971 which is when the title was put in his name. I will attach pictures of the trans partial vin and the block vin. Do these look legit. The gold car was in a wreck in 1979 which messed up the front sheet metal and hasn't been driven since then.
Thanks for all the help. I am wanting to turn the gold one and I just don't want to misrepresent any thing when I sell it. If I have decoded everything correctly It looks like the engine was built in Tonowanda in November 20th 396/352 HP. The Casting code is 3955272. The trans looks to be built in Nov 27th. The Cowl tag suggest that the car was assembled in the 4th week on November. Do these dates look like they could line up for a 4th week assembly?
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Dates and stamps look fine. What's the axle stamp?
I thought you might keep the gold one since it's original drivetrain. But I can't see the body condition from here. :)
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I would definitely suggest keeping the gold car with it's original block and transmission, in favor of the non-matching numbers car.....
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I would definitely suggest keeping the gold car with it's original block and transmission, in favor of the non-matching numbers car.....
Welcome to CRG, Likewise on the gold. Will be a real beauty with the white interior. Nice find !!
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Gold with parchment top and white interior would be beautiful, It would also get the WHITE D90 stripe on the side... PERSONALLY I like the Gold and White combo better than GOLD and BLACK. .