CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: SMS on January 15, 2018, 11:05:55 PM
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I have a 68 Norwood 05B with RR Matador Red paint and 725 Red Deluxe Interior. That's the easy part from the trim tag.
The car is pretty butchered and forgotten, but I suspect it's worth bringing back from the dead. Painted white long ago and in the late 80s (we suspect based on dated junk in the car) it started a back half drag car job with trunk cut out and 2X3 frame rails. Then abandoned. There is no sheet metal forward of the firewall, and no drivetrain. That's the bad part.
Here is why I think it's maybe something more special.
Clearly RS door trim top of doors and along the rocker line. Old black paint below the trim on the sides. Correct hole right of brake booster for vacuum lines, in fact a few inches of vacuum lines hanging out of the hole.
Looking down beside brake booster (booster cannibalized and missing) at sections of vacuum lines.
(http://i.imgur.com/7dFaUpN.jpg) (https://imgur.com/7dFaUpN)
Rear fascia. Low back up lights. Possible black paint tail light panel, but hard to tell from past paint work. There does not appear to be any red there as there is below and under the bumper.
(http://i.imgur.com/oYzBBt8.jpg) (https://imgur.com/oYzBBt8)
Then we add disc brakes and supporting pedal in interior.
(http://i.imgur.com/l7LGq9Q.jpg) (https://imgur.com/l7LGq9Q)
Has power steering, and I'm looking for a similar pic of a short pitman arm to compare with this. Looks like the longer version but I didn't get it measured and I'm not where I can do so for awhile.
(http://i.imgur.com/iYLVqoO.jpg) (https://imgur.com/iYLVqoO)
Then we go to the firewall. No heater core.
(http://i.imgur.com/xE8NGl3.jpg) (https://imgur.com/xE8NGl3)
But looks like the proper speedometer cable hole above the throttle pivot with original clips for a Muncie. As well as the rubber grommeted hole for an oil pressure line for console gauges.
(http://i.imgur.com/u36mhEn.jpg) (https://imgur.com/u36mhEn)
Speedo clip.
(http://i.imgur.com/Qjfb4eb.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Qjfb4eb)
Close up of upper clip and hole.
(http://i.imgur.com/oVKRlZw.jpg) (https://imgur.com/oVKRlZw)
So by now I'm pretty sure I might have an SS/RS....
Although easy to change, especially based on the probable past life she had, she has small block engine frame mounts and what looks like a small block cross member. The underside of the bolt access hole is torched for more clearance, and the top view of the cm look like a hard right offset, but I think the remnants of the hole are indicating SB. Thoughts?
(http://i.imgur.com/g4hCKuZ.jpg) (https://imgur.com/g4hCKuZ)
(http://i.imgur.com/tFnuSr8.jpg) (https://imgur.com/tFnuSr8)
Ok, so maybe an SS/RS 350 from the things present and accounted for?
So then I'm thrown off by the N30 wheel..... Camaro emblem, not SS. I know that's easy to change as well. The wheel I mean. Doubt anyone would go thru the trouble of de-badging an SS with a base emblem. Steal the emblem yes, change...?
(http://i.imgur.com/dk9eA7h.jpg) (https://imgur.com/dk9eA7h)
So possibilities:
RS with indications of Muncie transmission and console with gauges added.
RS/SS with steering wheel changed. Probable 350. Possibly 396.
RS Z/28
What opinions and hypothesis do you guys have about this one? Where would you go from here? Figuring when the snow stops I will check for a brake proportioning valve or evidence of one/lack of one. Reading the tire pressure sticker will take a crime lab, but it's there.
(http://i.imgur.com/1kWLcDo.jpg) (https://imgur.com/1kWLcDo)
Better yet, does anyone have my engine?!?!? :)
124378N431616
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You didn't mention fuel line, any evidence of dual exhaust ? Console car ? Muncie indicator is a strong indicator, trans crossmember could be a replacement. I'd do a little judicious sanding on the rear cove, or look closely at the corner of the trunk lid/gasket area - that's where my SS shows a good clue.
I see the deluxe door panel. I have a junkyard fairly close that this reminds me of - I'm used to seeing things that should be taken care of going to ruin, particularly Camaros. If you do buy it, or already have, I applaud your thinking.
Good luck, and send more pics ! We all appreciate detective work -
Regards,
Steve
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By the way, welcome to the CRG -
Steve
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Check in the glove box for tire decal. Also check on the lower half trunk gutter where the weather strip is see if it red or black below the weather strip.
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Thanks guys. Yes it is a console car.
The tire pressure sticker is there but I called a guy today to go out back and look at it for me but he said can’t be read. I need to inspect closer.
Will check under weatherstripping and pull out the tail lights. Looks like that white paint job just masked the back up lights so maybe original paint in the tail light openings.
What are the fuel line issues I need to be looking for? I didn’t know that was any kind of indicator in 68. In 69 there was size and return line models in Chevelles, thought Camaros were the same.
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Where the front fuel comes up the sub frame if it held down by a bolt and clamp it is small block. If it has a double sided clamp that is riveted into the frame it is a big block! The big block fuel line will just snap into the clamp. Hope this helps.
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Is there a gas cap on it?
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No gas cap.
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z/28's had rear bumper guards. You should check the tail light panel for bumper guard holes. Interesting car!
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I doubt Z car from the shot of the tail panel below the tail light lenses - just about where the hole is for the bumper guard mount through into the trunk interior.
However, the black paint below the tail light bezels is tantalizing. If, like rarebronze suggests, there is black paint crossing under the weatherstrip channel (which likely would not get removed or masked on a quick-and-dirty paint job), it's a great omen for a BB-SS. Check the gas line mount out as he suggests -
Regards,
Steve
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You can check for remnants of an SS stripe in the middle of the leading edge of the door. If a crummy repaint, you might be able to see some of that stripe wrapped around and visible, or it may be evident even if painted over. If you don't see evidence of SS striping, you can maybe do some gentle sanding on the body panel below the rear window to see if any evidence of Z stripes appears.
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My money is on a RS L-30/M20....
Steve
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Good points everyone and I appreciate the comments.
Steve I was thinking L30/M20 for a while as well but didn’t all of those still include Saginaw transmissions? This looks factory prepped for a Muncie.
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I missed the speedo cable... weird. Not a item likely moved. I bet the rear and the frame rails disappeard when they botched the back half..?? Any hood hinges or trunk torsion rods? D80 would be interesting....
Steve
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Off the main topic but the part of the N30 deluxe steering wheel that is showing looks like there isn't any cracks in it. That's unusual for a car that's had a rough life.
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Off the main topic but the part of the N30 deluxe steering wheel that is showing looks like there isn't any cracks in it. That's unusual for a car that's had a rough life.
Correct, frame rails are gone with the back half job. No hood hinges either. The PO had a one piece glass doghouse that came with it when he got it. I have learned that it changed hands once at a local auction house a few years ago. Not a car auction but just a normal all purpose house. I’m hoping they can follow thru and see who they sold it for.
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Oops. Quoted the wrong post.
Regarding the steering wheel, another thing that is interesting, amusing or surprising is that the shoulder seat belts are all tidy and stored nicely in their clip overhead. While the rest of the car went to crap they never messed with the belts. LOL. Back when I was chopping up cars and drag racing gutting the interior was the first thing done! :)
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I missed the speedo cable... weird. Not a item likely moved. I bet the rear and the frame rails disappeard when they botched the back half..?? Any hood hinges or trunk torsion rods? D80 would be interesting....
Steve
Did the D80 have different tortion bars or was it just an adjustment thing?
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One has a larger diameter...
Steve
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SS/RS L48 from what I see in the pics provided.
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SS/RS L48 from what I see in the pics provided.
Coming from this guy, me thinks you can take it to the bank. The dude knows his stuff.
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SS/RS L48 from what I see in the pics provided.
I'm not sure I agree. Yet.
I'm not going to comment on what I believe the car is without better pictures and more information (i.e., no snow), but that steering wheel emblem (if original, and it appears it may be) is a dead giveaway!
Ed
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You have a good point Ed that is why I added the disclaimer. ;D
In all seriousness I did not see the steering wheel pic. I still stand by my opinion until more pics come out.
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I really appreciate you guys helping diagnose this one. :)
I’ll try to get it out of the snow and into the operating room soon where we can hopefully come to some reasonable conclusions!
Bill
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I have a question about the black paint around the ashtray opening. Was that something done at the factory?
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Yes.
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My little project has certainly gotten exciting in the last couple days.
This won't be for the faint of heart, but it's time to save this car. Settled on a scope of work with a shop to make it a roller, then I'll go from there.
The patient. Hey, the door stainless is nice. ;) What sheet metal that's there is actually pretty solid.
(http://i.imgur.com/1n5XCbD.jpg) (https://imgur.com/1n5XCbD)
Tension rods approx. .230 and .265 for D80. Plus hole on front cross member for brace.
(http://i.imgur.com/QeQLAJi.jpg) (https://imgur.com/QeQLAJi)
Finally caught a break from the snow.
(http://i.imgur.com/crT6p5C.jpg) (https://imgur.com/crT6p5C)
April 30 box cover.
(http://i.imgur.com/nvh7oNi.jpg) (https://imgur.com/nvh7oNi)
Left front subframe with holes but no evidence of proportioning valve, but it's certainly hard to analyze this in current condition. Solid rockers.
(http://i.imgur.com/eTJeXm3.png) (https://imgur.com/eTJeXm3)
Nice distinct stripe masking into trunk jamb.
(http://i.imgur.com/FsMk3o6.jpg) (https://imgur.com/FsMk3o6)
(http://i.imgur.com/90BIJUT.jpg) (https://imgur.com/90BIJUT)
The sticker....
(http://i.imgur.com/gREXkV9.jpg) (https://imgur.com/gREXkV9)
Up close...
(http://i.imgur.com/DJPpAfk.png) (https://imgur.com/DJPpAfk)
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Currently waiting on the shipping report from Muscle Car Docs and I've learned that is went thru the local auction in mid 2015 (when my seller picked it up) so I'm asking them for past owner info. Turns out some missing parts came with the car are now in a shed to sort thru, but I've not got my hands on the stash yet.
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And to avoid becoming overwhelmed, a little 725 inspiration. :)
(http://i.imgur.com/Lf61BNn.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Lf61BNn)
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Kind of looks like you found the remains of a 1968 Z28RS. See if the spring tags are still on the front springs. They will be "EE"...Joe
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I retract my previous statement about it being a L48. Looks like you have very positive signs of it being a Z. Congrats.
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Look what happens when the snow melts.. !!! Pretty important details... Congrats on the Z.
Steve
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I was thinking of posting why? Not much car left. But now I would bet on the Z idea, great options and colors.
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Pretty excited in that this will be my 14th gen 1 Camaro, and will be really the first Z28. (only other real one was a 99 with an LS6 transplant)
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Red with red interior is killer. Congrats, you have some work ahead of you.
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You might want to run the last 6 or last 8 of the vin in the search here. You never know, somebody might have the engine or trans from it...Joe
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You might want to run the last 6 or last 8 of the vin in the search here. You never know, somebody might have the engine or trans from it...Joe
I've done that almost daily here and ebay, google, other forums, CL, etc... Hoping the Orphan pages will come thru for me someday!
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I haven't found mine either & I've had mine since 1976 & had only 43k. Mine is the feature car this month...Joe
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I haven't found mine either & I've had mine since 1976 & had only 43k. Mine is the feature car this month...Joe
I read your feature story the other day. Very cool and I love the long time stories. I have a 59 Corvette I've had since December 1974.
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Red with red interior is killer. Congrats, you have some work ahead of you.
Yes, that was a real incentive for me. The stats say only 5% of all 68s had a red interior. Assuming any degree of "linearality" to that applied to RS Z28s with Z87 there won't be too many similar cars any place I go.
The rarest Camaro I've had in the past was this 68 with cruise control.
(http://i.imgur.com/vFu8er9.jpg) (https://imgur.com/vFu8er9)
(http://i.imgur.com/e3vBipW.jpg) (https://imgur.com/e3vBipW)
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Yep. As I suspected. Like I said, that steering wheel emblem was the tip off.
Ed
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Yep. As I suspected. Like I said, that steering wheel emblem was the tip off.
Ed
I kept thinking about your post from Jan 17 and knew you'd like this update. :)
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Really, really cool. Great thread. Love the red interior.
68Z's are popping up everywhere.
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Welcome to the 68Z Red Int club,,,,,Really lots of work ahead- Please save it Save it!
Jim (724 Interior)
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Welcome to the 68Z Red Int club,,,,,Really lots of work ahead- Please save it Save it!
Jim (724 Interior)
Yeah, I saw your seat belt post in Gilmore. They look great.
It will be fun to watch them both come together. Mine will be slow, have a lot of other projects going on as well. What will be your exterior color?
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The Gilmore will be restored to its orig configuration.
C-2 (Ermine White w/ Black V top)
Take a Million photos as you go to document the as found items.
Some RED, I was surprised how well it has been cleaning up, but I am really going to re-dye a lot (at least that is the plan) cause I would prefer original parts w/ cosmetic restoration -vs- perfect reproduction parts.
keep posting
Jim
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Received the shipping data. I bought the car 50 miles from where it was delivered in 1968 to Columbus, Indiana which was very close to where I live. I’ve also talked to the son of the original dealer who was a teenager driving a red Z28 RS back in the day.... His memory is a bit foggy on the exact details and he suspects their records are all gone but we are staying in touch now about this car. Also since it’s been off the road for 30 years there might not be too many owners and high potential that it’s always been in the area, so I put a want ad on local CL to attempt to fill in the gaps. Maybe even find some missing parts in a garage. :)
It’s next in line at my body shop to begin a well documented disassembly and trunk floor job.
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My Hail Mary want ad
https://indianapolis.craigslist.org/cto/d/1968-z28-rally-sport-camaro/6485736664.html
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It is reasonable that the car stayed in your area. I tried the CL thing on my 69 with no luck. It was really popular to repaint these cars in their early years ( I think most went from something to red ) but there is always a chance. To me it part of the fun. Looks like your luck is running now so keep us posted.
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Very cool find congrats. I will be following this to see what else you find.
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It is reasonable that the car stayed in your area. I tried the CL thing on my 69 with no luck. It was really popular to repaint these cars in their early years ( I think most went from something to red ) but there is always a chance. To me it part of the fun. Looks like your luck is running now so keep us posted.
So far the only replies I’ve had to the CL ad are, “ I wire you funds to buy item you are selling. Please provide total and banking information.”
:)
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Those people are always fun to mess with. You act like you're real old & def. Then you ask them what kind of dog come with the funds :)
I hope you get some real responses. That's when it gets interesting
Joe
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Does anyone know how many 68 Zs came with power steering? Jerry’s book simply states, “very few 67 and 68 Z28s were equipped with power steering.......... .”
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i don't think 68 bb fuel lines clipped into a double clip. they most likely were in the single clip that bolted to the rear bolt on the motor mount stand like 67s did
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My shipping report link I noticed did not post, so here it is.
(http://i.imgur.com/DMapbIT.jpg) (https://imgur.com/DMapbIT)
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Documenting the white paint in unmasked fashion in the cowl area of my RR paint car.
(http://i.imgur.com/Rma6LuU.jpg) (https://imgur.com/Rma6LuU)
(http://i.imgur.com/kb2GHbc.jpg) (https://imgur.com/kb2GHbc)
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Glad to see you know what the car is now. Don't see many Red on Red Camaro's. Kool find since it is also Z-28. Also plum l78 you are right about at the motor mount clip. I was talking further back were the fuel line comes up the frame. Look in your 68 assembly manual for big block fuel line show good picture of it.
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Glad to see you know what the car is now. Don't see many Red on Red Camaro's. Kool find since it is also Z-28. Also plum l78 you are right about at the motor mount clip. I was talking further back were the fuel line comes up the frame. Look in your 68 assembly manual for big block fuel line show good picture of it.
I do really like the red on red. Probably ingrained in me at a young age when Mom's new SS/RS 67 was red/red. :)
(http://i.imgur.com/4uS1XG3.jpg) (https://imgur.com/4uS1XG3)
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Doors coming off now. Appears to have never had the interior door panels off. Everything was perfectly correctly fastened.
(http://i.imgur.com/tReoT05.jpg) (https://imgur.com/tReoT05)
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Paint and body man is Paint By Jason in central Indiana. He has his own Camaros and has done a lot of high quality show cars and restorations. This is my 69 Chevelle 300 Deluxe SS 396 that he did from the ground up, so I have pretty high expectations for the Z28.
(http://i.imgur.com/w7ZnZEI.jpg) (https://imgur.com/w7ZnZEI)
(http://i.imgur.com/W5gRVCP.jpg) (https://imgur.com/W5gRVCP)
(http://i.imgur.com/bpT4e4e.jpg) (https://imgur.com/bpT4e4e)
(http://i.imgur.com/U7wDplp.png) (https://imgur.com/U7wDplp)
(http://i.imgur.com/qFQeO1P.png) (https://imgur.com/qFQeO1P)
(http://i.imgur.com/UfCO4h0.png) (https://imgur.com/UfCO4h0)
(http://i.imgur.com/ngLjvSD.png) (https://imgur.com/ngLjvSD)
(http://i.imgur.com/glEFnkX.png) (https://imgur.com/glEFnkX)
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A01 Soft Ray tinted glass.
(http://i.imgur.com/fTQFxGg.jpg) (https://imgur.com/fTQFxGg)
Door sheet metal in excellent condition.
(http://i.imgur.com/aX13BFb.jpg) (https://imgur.com/aX13BFb)
Door panels appear to have never been off. No adjustment marks on or around any of the bolts, fabric sleeve inside door, felt paper still has the plastic dust shield at the handle opening and all in great shape. No water damage to door panel or liner. Planning now to restore these rather than replace.
(http://i.imgur.com/KkupF08.jpg) (https://imgur.com/KkupF08)
(http://i.imgur.com/xBc58HL.jpg) (https://imgur.com/xBc58HL)
(http://i.imgur.com/6NrsaWY.jpg) (https://imgur.com/6NrsaWY)
(http://i.imgur.com/9Iw3oVH.jpg) (https://imgur.com/9Iw3oVH)
(http://i.imgur.com/iR8wgAs.jpg) (https://imgur.com/iR8wgAs)
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Now all I need is Jim Rockford PI skills to find out who the student was in 1971 that had this parking pass at Rose Polytechnic Institute (now Rose Hullman) in Terre Haute, In.
Actually, I did find an old year book and have assembled a list of possible candidates as the YB listed hometowns and such and it was a very small student body back then. Interesting...
(http://i.imgur.com/rMg7VnG.jpg) (https://imgur.com/rMg7VnG)
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I had Al Knoch do my door panels. They look great even though they never could match the color (Yellow). The red might be a different subject....Joe
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Finally a step in the forward direction. Doors removed, DA sanded, media blasted, hammer and dollied, primed. Orig. sheetmetal. Subframe coming off next and body going on a dolly and inside.
(http://i.imgur.com/HGD04Lb.png) (https://imgur.com/HGD04Lb)
(http://i.imgur.com/vCO664k.png) (https://imgur.com/vCO664k)
(http://i.imgur.com/o6DHj7S.png) (https://imgur.com/o6DHj7S)
(http://i.imgur.com/PdRNlPz.png) (https://imgur.com/PdRNlPz)
(http://i.imgur.com/iVYloYj.png) (https://imgur.com/iVYloYj)
(http://i.imgur.com/QAZ4I8A.jpg) (https://imgur.com/QAZ4I8A)
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Buying parts as I come across them in no particular order. Focusing first on Z specific items like cast iron PS pulley, etc... Decided to go the reproduction headers route rather than manifolds and smog equipment.
(http://i.imgur.com/gfopBYV.png) (https://imgur.com/gfopBYV)
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B27 8 and B28 8 291's
(http://i.imgur.com/APl1D4Z.jpg) (https://imgur.com/APl1D4Z)
(http://i.imgur.com/mCiociG.jpg) (https://imgur.com/mCiociG)
(http://i.imgur.com/RUPc76Z.jpg) (https://imgur.com/RUPc76Z)
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Tell me more about the headers?
Vendor, lead time, est market cost, fit, finish, material, etc?
You seem to making great progress.
JIM
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Tell me more about the headers?
Vendor, lead time, est market cost, fit, finish, material, etc?
You seem to making great progress.
JIM
Jim,
I bought them new from Brett Radnoff, T/A Performance Restorations in California.
He is not the builder. If you do a search here on reproduction headers there is some discussion on them and Jerry M mentions the guy who builds them.
There are a bit like art. I will hate to make them black and install them as they look so good on the bench. :)
Very solid and hefty. Welds and bends are very nice. Supposedly fab ed off the correct jigs.
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Yeah, same ones Chick has. Gorgeous but expensive!
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Time for a few updates.
12 bolt about ready to go.
(http://i.imgur.com/SmX2KMo.jpg)
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I’m having a hard time posting photos from my phone. I’ll try my updates tomorrow.
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Headers look just like the NOS ones Beem picked up from Merle's place.
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Some progress on the body. Original quarters, doors and sills in good shape.
(https://i.imgur.com/penuDoG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UIEGSfk.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WeN7jnP.jpg)
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The floors in the driver's compartment were in good shape, but from the back half job, the section around the rear seat was cut up along with the trunk. So to avoid having a cross seam in the floor pan, the decision was finally to replace the floors from the rear bumper to the firewall. Also that let us chassis jig it all up and perfect alignments, dimensions, squareness.
(https://i.imgur.com/vQ4k0Pe.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YCHZTHc.jpg)
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Protective primer coat now while the body work advances. Front subframe off and getting the works.
(https://i.imgur.com/MbyobYK.jpg)
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IH OD ready to go.
(https://i.imgur.com/7awUUUb.jpg)
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Little diversion from my assignments, but also trying to get my Dad's 53 Bel Air convertible back on the road. :)
(https://i.imgur.com/QSD25Eh.jpg)
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Great progress Keep posting.
Hint, I have a set of those headers on the way.
JIM
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Just a tip - you can resize pictures (smaller) before posting, so they are easier to see without scrolling across and down the page. I use Paint myself.
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Just a tip - you can resize pictures (smaller) before posting, so they are easier to see without scrolling across and down the page. I use Paint myself.
Oops. I didn't realize those last to were so huge. Thanks.
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Saw your Progress posted at Y.net
Way to GO!
JIM
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very impressive.
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Saw your Progress posted at Y.net
Way to GO!
JIM
How 'bout a link, please ?
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You Bet
https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=170280
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Thank you Sir...I browse around a little over there, but never the lounge! lol The car sure has come a long way in the last few years... looks and sounds awesome!👍
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Hey guy. I'll do a quick update here. And thanks for the comments. That helps keep me motivated on a long project. ;)
So my want ad for info provided a substantial pay off. I have since met the family of the original owner, spent alot of time with the second owner who bought the Z in May of 1969, and the third owner who raced it in the mid 70s. Have tons of cool stories and info I'll be putting together, and they all claim to have baby pictures coming my way, but none have come thru yet.
The work at the body shop stalled out, (same old story) so I collected the car and all the parts and restarted the effort on my own. The new rear frame rails were also put too close together at the front spring perches so we re-did all the floors again and got all the dimensions correct. Here is where we sit now. Restoring and mocking up all the major components and now starting on body gaps. Then back apart for body and paint.
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Here is a running clip of the fresh 302.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OntId_1IKC0
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Some outstanding work you're doing there. Those seats are cleaning up nicely. Will you be able to keep the OE door panels too ? I Luv 68 deluxe interiors!
One thing I can't help but mention...maybe you're already aware, I believe the power steering pump cap should be the metal type with 2 ears for 67-8. Surely someone will correct me if I'm wrong. ;)
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Some outstanding work you're doing there. Those seats are cleaning up nicely. Will you be able to keep the OE door panels too ? I Luv 68 deluxe interiors!
One thing I can't help but mention...maybe you're already aware, I believe the power steering pump cap should be the metal type with 2 ears for 67-8. Surely someone will correct me if I'm wrong. ;)
Good eye. I believe you are correct on the PS cap. I borrowed that one out of my 69 Chevelle temporarily.
I will try to save the door panels, but I also have a set from Koch that look very nice. We’ll see how that goes.