CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: ZLP955 on December 17, 2017, 04:20:31 AM

Title: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: ZLP955 on December 17, 2017, 04:20:31 AM
I admit to being biased towards a Cortez Silver Z28, so naturally this one caught my attention:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z-28/142626598240

However, looking through the detailed pictures I noted a number of red flags - like the stamped codes (!) down by the oil filter. Then the size of the font for the VIN sequence differs from the rest of the VIN on the CHP appraisal certificate, as well as certain spacing, so I wonder about the rest of the 'documentation' - broadcast copy, MSO......
Interested in your thoughts. Not trying to start vendor bashing, so could we please keep it factual  8)
Here's a few of the photos from the above ebay listing:
(https://dealeraccelerate-all.s3.amazonaws.com/smt/images/7/3/6/736/1917654a9bf6a_low_res_1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28.jpg)
(https://dealeraccelerate-all.s3.amazonaws.com/smt/images/7/3/6/736/1917995e91a00_low_res_1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28.jpg)
(https://dealeraccelerate-all.s3.amazonaws.com/smt/images/7/3/6/736/19180ee0c3074_low_res_1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28.jpg)
(https://dealeraccelerate-all.s3.amazonaws.com/smt/images/7/3/6/736/1917746946519_low_res_1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28.jpg)
(https://dealeraccelerate-all.s3.amazonaws.com/smt/images/7/3/6/736/19178d33c8dd7_low_res_1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28.jpg)
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: KurtS on December 17, 2017, 05:17:51 AM
What a joke! All that documentation has been modified. Ray Charles could see that....
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: bertfam on December 17, 2017, 05:32:05 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

By the way, wouldn't all this be considered fraud?

And what about a 08A Trim Tag on an early June car???

Ed
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: BULLITT65 on December 17, 2017, 05:37:38 AM
Hmm intersting since the tag looked authentic to me. ???

 I do agree with it not lining up with the Vin though. :o
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: ZLP955 on December 17, 2017, 09:46:51 AM
Thanks. Haven't seen enough MSOs or BBCs to call it 100%, but there were enough changes of font size, style and legibility in those to be almost certain. Surprised Jerry doesn't put a unique serial number on his appraisal certificates to help prevent those being altered; expect some potential buyers would just see the certificate as proof positive and wouldn't check facts with him before buying.....
For future search 124379N657909
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: HOT3O2 on December 17, 2017, 02:26:07 PM
At least if your going to re stamp the motor (V0121DZ) make it a little closer to the cars build date (08A).
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: bertfam on December 20, 2017, 04:50:16 PM
Quote
Hmm intersting since the tag looked authentic to me.

It is! That's what's really scary about this car. The trim tag is real and has never been removed so that brings up a huge red flag about the VIN. An inspection of the hidden VINs would be highly recommended in this case!

Jerry contacted the seller a few days ago, but as of yet, they're still showing the fake paperwork in the auction. Looking in my crystal ball, I foresee several lawyers buying new houses with the money they're going to make off this!!

Ed
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: X33RS on December 20, 2017, 06:15:22 PM
Makes me skeptical of any paperwork anymore with the things people are doing.

I think it's getting to the point Jerry is going to have to make videos of documenting cars if he hasn't already, but I guess people will find ways to manipulate that too.

I guess if a car has certification, one still has to just call Jerry to verify everything on the paper these days.
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: z28z11 on December 20, 2017, 11:36:28 PM
What a joke! All that documentation has been modified. Ray Charles could see that....

Both of my MSO sheets (both Z's) are copies of microfiched documents; they are more distinct by far than this cobbled up mess.

Regards,
Steve
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: BULLITT65 on December 20, 2017, 11:45:10 PM
What state are yours from Steve, and how did you get them?
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: rare396bronze on December 21, 2017, 06:20:43 AM
The company has a real bad reputation. Been discussed about before. I would never look at anything they have. Worst MSO I have ever seen. The HP rating is not is not even correct. Have 3 copy's from State of Tennessee one is my 396 convertible and a friends 68z28 also 68 327 coupe. In Tennessee if the car was shipped to a dealer brand new years ago you could do a title search before the privacy law. The had it on microfiche and would send you a Certification on the car paper work including copy of Dealer invoice and MSO and all the previous owners.
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: z28z11 on December 22, 2017, 05:10:24 AM
What state are yours from Steve, and how did you get them?

Both of my Z's are Tennessee cars, one Middle Tn, one East TN, both cars were sold here and have spent all of their lives here. I ran the first request through the TNDOT about 1980-81, when I found out it could be done (I think from an article in Super Chevy); fortunately, TN is one of the states that microfiched old records if the car was sold new here, and tucked them away in the DOT archives. Early on, they would not redact names from the paperwork, later they did. Eventually both the Federal privacy laws caught up with them, they started redacting the names, but still gave out the copies until state funding cutbacks reduced shifts and overtime at the DOT, forcing them to cut out the service (they researched overnight, gave you the copies next day). Rare396bronze and I have researched several cars this way, and have documented both of our '68's right down to the MSO's and dealer invoice copies, which is great. I just wish I could see my L78's paperwork like this, it's an early car that fell outside of the NCRS dealer info (12B build) - since it came from the Chicago area, I've always wondered if it was a Nickey car, which would be a boon to say the least.

Regards,
Steve

Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: 68Tiger on December 22, 2017, 12:28:19 PM
The company has a real bad reputation. Been discussed about before. I would never look at anything they have.

x2 Agree! I recall reading a thread on Team Camaro about a guy getting scammed by this place. The owners then tried to defend the allegations however the majority of the guys on the forum who chimed in reported similar happenings.
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: Tx-Z 302 on December 22, 2017, 08:56:33 PM
What a joke! All that documentation has been modified. Ray Charles could see that....

Both of my MSO sheets (both Z's) are copies of microfiched documents; they are more distinct by far than this cobbled up mess.

Regards,
Steve
.    Can I get microfiche copies of mine?
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: JKZ27 on December 23, 2017, 02:18:11 PM
Chris, I believe it depends on the state your car was originally delivered to and how that state keeps documents. Some states purge them, some are kept until the car is registered elsewhere.
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: X33RS on December 26, 2017, 08:52:06 PM
Hope you're not from Arizona.  They purge them after 10 years here.  Mine wasn't registered for 35 years so when we decided to put the car back on the road about 2 years ago, the cars vin didn't exist anymore.  I had to go through this process and pay extra to recreate it and put it back into the system.  The bad news was that all previous owners are lost.  Doing a vin search it looks like I'm the only owner of the car, lol.
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: bertfam on December 26, 2017, 09:04:03 PM
From ebay:

Quote
This listing was ended by the seller because there was an error in the listing.

Let's see if it comes back, and if it does will it still have the fake paperwork?

Ed
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: bcmiller on December 26, 2017, 11:17:12 PM
For now, none of us know the whole story. I would cut them a little slack.

Buyers always need to do their homework first. Assume nothing.

Personally I am not a fan of just walking into a classic car dealer and buying a car that is finished. I have a lot more respect for guys that dig cars out of shelter belts, old garages, warehouses, etc. - and then they invest their own blood, sweat and tears into the build. But maybe thatís just me.
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: bcmiller on December 27, 2017, 02:07:55 AM
Could be that the car was being sold on consignment and dealership didnít check the documentation over very well. I am not sticking up for anyone.

Whoever faked the paperwork will need to suffer the consequences. 
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: BULLITT65 on December 27, 2017, 02:12:14 AM
"suffer" ...I would like to witness that.... :o

(Other than the guy in Angola Indiana, I haven't heard of anyone getting Prosecuted or suffering for putting out fakes. Just saying)
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: bcmiller on December 27, 2017, 02:20:04 PM
These days, donít underestimate anything.
Title: Re: Documentation for 9N657909
Post by: ZLP955 on January 08, 2018, 09:35:51 AM
Relisted, still with pictures of fake MSO and BBC, but minus any reference to, or picture of, the fake CHP appraisal certificate. Buy Now $84,995
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z-28/142646826146