CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: 68camaroz28 on December 13, 2017, 09:25:41 PM

Title: Original door mirror fame
Post by: 68camaroz28 on December 13, 2017, 09:25:41 PM
During Legends judging I had a demerit since our original door mirror had no mold line in the mirror frame but I had had it re-chromed so it was assumed including me, that during preparation the mold line had been removed. The mirrored glass is dated October 1967. I had taken out the dated glass by soaking in mineral spirits for a couple days. Seemed unlikely they would have buffed that seam out but at the time the only thing I could think of at the time.   
Our mirror base showing the underneath part # and the top area normally seeing a mold line.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4562/39029941081_95635a7a26.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22sWDGD)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4579/24165716147_86b28aca31.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/CPrBup)


My assumption that the mold line was taken off at the chrome platters kind of changed or at least cautioned when I observed a very original un-molested Lemans Blue 21K mile 68 Z/28 being judged in that always great survivor class at this years MCACN which just happened to have the same looking door mirror base as ours.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4543/38993394292_bfb76ae05d.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22pHkBA)


Has anyone else seen this no seam looking door mirror base? To be honest Iíve never looked at mirrors on cars prior looking to see if the mirror had a mold line or not but I am now. Thanks in advance for any information.
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: cook_dw on December 13, 2017, 11:00:13 PM
Chick this probably doesnít help much but of the samples I have all of the originals have the seam.  Now I do have one that is a 4 of 74 and itís seam is VERY faint.  I can post pics later but doubt itíll help.
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: 68camaroz28 on December 14, 2017, 01:42:39 AM
Chick this probably doesn’t help much but of the samples I have all of the originals have the seam.  Now I do have one that is a 4 of 74 and it’s seam is VERY faint.  I can post pics later but doubt it’ll help.
Thanks Darrell but agree it would not help the case but thanks again!
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: 68camaroz28 on December 18, 2017, 11:40:02 PM
Randy (427yenko) on Team Camaro sent me a picture of his 5 DMI 9 mirror on his 69 Camaro. Same type as ours and the 68Z survivor at MCACN. Anyone else? Come on now, its the holidays..... Merry Christmas and New Year to All!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4693/38408235434_b1f8228226.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21w1fgL)

Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: 68Zproject on December 19, 2017, 10:15:06 PM
Hey Chick, the one on my LOS 05D has the seam.  It has the same part no. as yours and says C2.  The seam actually goes all the way on front and back into the "rocket ship" shaped mount that the mirror ball attaches to.  That being said, it doesn't prove much of anything.  However, this did make me realize my mirror is upside down which I couldn't fix until I took it off to look at it for your thread, so thanks!
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: camaronut on December 20, 2017, 12:55:20 AM
Here's what ya need!!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-NOS-1968-1969-CAMARO-70-CHEVELLE-etc-LH-DOOR-MIRROR-NEW-3914753-ORIGINAL/142627782586?epid=23007613434&hash=item2135473fba:g:1zAAAOSw-wJaDf-5&vxp=mtr

and:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-GM-NOS-1968-1969-CAMARO-RH-DOOR-MIRROR-NEW-3914754-CHEVELLE-NOVA-VETTE/401440226995?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3D0eb7cc88e77145c8a29cea3fab7f1405%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D142627782586&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: 68camaroz28 on December 20, 2017, 04:20:11 AM
Here's what ya need!!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-NOS-1968-1969-CAMARO-70-CHEVELLE-etc-LH-DOOR-MIRROR-NEW-3914753-ORIGINAL/142627782586?epid=23007613434&hash=item2135473fba:g:1zAAAOSw-wJaDf-5&vxp=mtr

and:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-GM-NOS-1968-1969-CAMARO-RH-DOOR-MIRROR-NEW-3914754-CHEVELLE-NOVA-VETTE/401440226995?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3D0eb7cc88e77145c8a29cea3fab7f1405%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D142627782586&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
Thanks for the info but the goal here is to find and document other 68/69 Camaro's with their original LH door mirror frame that has no mold line/seam. 


Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: X33RS on December 20, 2017, 04:11:20 PM
My original door mirror on my 12D Norwood Z has a very crisp mold/parting line.
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: camaronut on December 20, 2017, 04:56:04 PM
Here's what ya need!!!!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-NOS-1968-1969-CAMARO-70-CHEVELLE-etc-LH-DOOR-MIRROR-NEW-3914753-ORIGINAL/142627782586?epid=23007613434&hash=item2135473fba:g:1zAAAOSw-wJaDf-5&vxp=mtr

and:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/ORIGINAL-GM-NOS-1968-1969-CAMARO-RH-DOOR-MIRROR-NEW-3914754-CHEVELLE-NOVA-VETTE/401440226995?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3D0eb7cc88e77145c8a29cea3fab7f1405%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D142627782586&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
Thanks for the info but the goal here is to find and document other 68/69 Camaro's with their original LH door mirror frame that has no mold line/seam. 

What has always amazed me  - are the differences between original "from the factory" parts vs. original NOS GM parts.  I was told by a Camaro expert to never say "that's absolutely" the way it is.  As in this case it seems quite possibly that there were few mirrors that were flat vs ribbed.  Original is original.  So how do you argue that?  The part number is what its supposed to be.

Btw, my GM NOS mirror dated April 1970 has a "mold / parting line" as seen in the eBay pics.
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: bertfam on December 20, 2017, 05:10:12 PM
Quote
Thanks for the info but the goal here is to find and document other 68/69 Camaro's with their original LH door mirror frame that has no mold line/seam.

Chick, I highly doubt you're going to find any.

There were three suppliers to Chevrolet for the outside rear view mirrors in the 1960's. Donnelly, Ajax and Standard. (Although I've never seen a Standard mirror on an original first generation Camaro. If you DO have a Standard mirror on your car, please contact me!!)

I've examined literally hundreds of these mirrors over the last 50 years and ALL Donnelly mirrors had the line, even on service replacement mirrors that were supplied well into the 1990's. Ajax mirrors even had the line, although not as pronounced as the Donnelly mirrors. I don't have enough pictures of a Standard mirror to tell, but from what I do have, it appears they don't have a parting line. But again, I've never seen a Standard mirror on a 67-69 Camaro.

Your theory about the chrome platter cleaning up the line is valid since I've seen that several times in the past. It's unfortunate, but unless you stipulate that the line needs to stay, they may not know any better.

Your only option now would be to get another original mirror and have him rechrome it, but this time make sure he doesn't remove the dumb line!!!

Ed
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: Pacecar on December 20, 2017, 05:37:45 PM
Mirror on your Z has Donnelly glass so should have the parting line in my opinion
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: abiddle on December 20, 2017, 07:26:46 PM
I have an NOS in-the-box dated 7-DMI-9 passenger side mirror with an extremely faint seam, barely visible. Pictures if anyone wants to see it.
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: bertfam on December 20, 2017, 08:08:43 PM
Quote
I have an NOS in-the-box dated 7-DMI-9 passenger side mirror with an extremely faint seam, barely visible. Pictures if anyone wants to see it.

I would. I'm still collecting pictures for the mirror report and need some really good high resolution shots.

Can you email them to me? My email address is in my signature below.

Thanks!

Ed
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: Camarocards on December 20, 2017, 11:49:06 PM
Ed,

FYI, I posted some original and NOS Service Replace mirror pictures in Chickís build thread on the TC site.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/133-build-projects/182584-time-another-68-z-28-restored-91.html

Bob
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: bertfam on December 21, 2017, 01:44:06 AM
Thanks Bob.

Ed
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: 68camaroz28 on December 21, 2017, 04:06:50 AM
Quote
Thanks for the info but the goal here is to find and document other 68/69 Camaro's with their original LH door mirror frame that has no mold line/seam.

Chick, I highly doubt you're going to find any.

There were three suppliers to Chevrolet for the outside rear view mirrors in the 1960's. Donnelly, Ajax and Standard. (Although I've never seen a Standard mirror on an original first generation Camaro. If you DO have a Standard mirror on your car, please contact me!!)

I've examined literally hundreds of these mirrors over the last 50 years and ALL Donnelly mirrors had the line, even on service replacement mirrors that were supplied well into the 1990's. Ajax mirrors even had the line, although not as pronounced as the Donnelly mirrors. I don't have enough pictures of a Standard mirror to tell, but from what I do have, it appears they don't have a parting line. But again, I've never seen a Standard mirror on a 67-69 Camaro.

Your theory about the chrome platter cleaning up the line is valid since I've seen that several times in the past. It's unfortunate, but unless you stipulate that the line needs to stay, they may not know any better.

Your only option now would be to get another original mirror and have him rechrome it, but this time make sure he doesn't remove the dumb line!!!

Ed

Ed, I have found!  I have a hard time believing the platter I used who does high quality work in all kinds of restorations would take the time to completely remove a feature but yes, its possible and that was the only thing I could think of at the time until I saw the other 68Z survivor at MCACN with 21K miles that has the same mirror as ours and posted the picture at beginning of this thread. Looks identical! Then I posted the 5 DMI 9 mirror on a 69 survivor with the same mirror so I would assume there are others, but also realize this is the exception, not the rule. Concerning the Standard mirror, I've already posted the underneath GM part # and other markings in the first picture of this thread. To be honest my original mirror frame is off the car and has been replaced by one with a mold line but with our correct 10 DMI 7 mirror/glass so it looks correct. :) There had to be multiple molds just like they had for bell housings, headlamps, etc.. Totally realize the normal mirror base observed will have the mold line and do not doubt your recall over the 50 years. I believe the lemans blue 68Z survivor with the same mirror opened some eyes as well as another very knowledgeable Camaro person told me they had not seen a mirror like that when I pointed it out. Maybe we will learn something and one has to wonder over the years how many original things were changed out due to a judging event or other information that in reality should not have been.
I will see if I can contact the owner of the 68Z survivor and Randy of the 69 and see if we can get a picture of the underneath but realize I would not blame them if they said no.
Thanks Ed for collection of photos and if I uncover anymore I will make sure they are posted and you have.
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: bertfam on December 21, 2017, 06:23:09 PM
Chick, I try not to say never which is why I don't participate in judging (just WAY TOO MUCH DRAMA), so it's very possible there were mirrors with little to no parting line. However, that being said, the process of die casting leads to quality issues after xxx number of castings have been done. Dies wear, and especially dies where you have to place two or more dies together to form one part. The mirror base consisted of two separate dies, joined together at the parting line and then the metal poured into the die. While I don't know this for sure, I'm fairly certain the GM directive stipulated that the excess slag be ground off. This would have probably included any excess slag at the parting line. Especially at the top where it's easily seen. Did they always do this? Apparently not since original mirrors have been observed with a HUGE parting line (up to a few millimeters in fact)!

Yes, I'm sure there were many sets of dies, and lots of replacements once the originals became too worn to use. This same exact base was used on the Camaro, Chevelle, Nova, Full size... and even other GM divisions for several years, so it stands to reason there would be varying degree of parting lines due to the number of dies used, the age of a particular set of dies and the degree at which the metal worker cared!!

I've attached a picture of a base with the "typical" parting line usually seen (although I've seen a LOT worse than this one!), and another picture of a base with a very wide parting line as shown if you were looking forward seated in the driver's seat.

However, all this being said, if you're having your car judged and the rules say there should be a parting line, then there should be a parting line! But again, I don't get involved in judging since I don't need the headaches!

Ed
Title: Re: Original door mirror fame
Post by: 68camaroz28 on December 22, 2017, 12:01:36 AM
Ed, not arguing with you but I do not need pictures on a mold or parting line. I've stated now at least twice I know the norm is a parting line. And the parting line does vary from distinct to light. All I'm trying to determine is some quantity of original mirrors that do not have the parting line. And I'm confident there are some, that's all, as now I've seen a couple in a short time. No big deal, its just asking if anyone has one.
Thanks for all your help and assistance as always!