CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: Tinbasher on December 08, 2017, 02:21:26 AM

Title: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Tinbasher on December 08, 2017, 02:21:26 AM
Does anyone have good pictures of the way that tailight panel is masked off. I can't find anything here from the search's I've tried.

Tinbasher
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 08, 2017, 02:33:42 AM
 I can take several closeups of my '67 LOS that still has original paint and post tomorrow afternoon.

Mike
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: william on December 10, 2017, 06:28:47 PM
How it was done @ 57 cars per hour.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: bcmiller on December 10, 2017, 11:36:16 PM
Excellent example Bill. Thats how it was done most of the time but I have seen some variation.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: 169INDY on December 11, 2017, 12:06:01 AM
L34 4sp NOR
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: bcmiller on December 11, 2017, 12:53:30 AM
More pics here...

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=2458.60
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 11, 2017, 02:20:28 PM
Hello,
  To the original poster, sorry for my late reply. Sad to say this has been a rough week for the family. My aunt (102 years old) passed away and 3 days later her sister (age 97) passed away suddenly. I guess if there is a silver lining in this then that is they lived in the same town so it made attending the funerals easier.
  Anyhow....attached are pictures of my '67 04B LOS tail blackout. Sorry for the dusty condition as the car has been in storage for 17+ years on a lift.
  Interesting is the way the tape line was done. You can clearly see the tape line along the area where the rubber bumper contacts but on the inside edge there is an obvious feathered area. This is on both sides of the trunk. Another picture shows how the edge was not always along the seam sealer junction.

  Let me know if you need more pictures.

Mike
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 11, 2017, 02:22:10 PM
More pictures
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: bcmiller on December 11, 2017, 02:25:29 PM
Mike can you post a wider shot of the area in your last pic?
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 11, 2017, 03:59:14 PM
Hi Bryon,
    Here are two more. Let me know if you need additional or closer shots.

Mike
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: bcmiller on December 11, 2017, 05:38:57 PM
Thanks Mike. Those are great. I was just having a bit of trouble figuring out exactly where that was. Too early in the morning I guess. :)   

I see it now!
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 11, 2017, 07:53:07 PM
 I forgot to add a photo to show the original poster the bottom tape line.
I took this from the restored convertible to show the tape line with the bumper removed.

Mike
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: maroman on December 11, 2017, 10:25:47 PM
Wan't there a thread about this about a year or two ago? I seem to remember quite a few different tape lines on original cars.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: william on December 11, 2017, 11:18:02 PM
I seem to remember quite a few different tape lines on original cars.

Chevy built 36,727 1st Gen Camaros with 396 engines. None of us has seen 1% of them with original paint.

Nothing wrong with noting what has been observed [including some gloss black panels] but I wouldn't draw any conclusions from such a tiny sample size. There could be other variations.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: bcmiller on December 11, 2017, 11:49:56 PM
I agree Bill. Probably was at least quite a bit of minor variation. Probably depended on who was taping things off, their experience level, etc.

There is another way I have seen, canít say for sure if it was on a 67, but it had blackout farther up into the trunk weatherstrip channel.

Donít mean to open up an old can of worms, but I am in the camp of not full gloss in the blackout in 67 and 68. I am not as sure for 69, there was probably variation that year. 
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: william on December 11, 2017, 11:58:36 PM
There are examples of OE paint survivors of all years with glossy rear panels. Note that the gloss level on the spoiler is very similar to the black rear panel. Have a few others, same deal.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: bcmiller on December 12, 2017, 02:09:16 AM
I wasnít going there, but...

When people like Jerry, JohnZ, Ed, and Jim Mattison all agree, and it fits my memory of what I saw in the 70s, that trumps survivor paint. Years of waxing and polishing change things.

Itís ok that we donít all agree.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: william on December 12, 2017, 02:48:04 AM
Everyone says that-they were polished. No they weren't. You're saying your memory trumps an original car?

It was done with lacquer. Sometimes it dried dull, sometimes it dried glossy. Simple as that.

When I was completing my '69 Z/28 years ago I examined an original paint Le Mans blue Z/28-RS to determine how the rockers should be painted. To my surprise, they were just as glossy as the rest of the car. I doubt someone crawled around under it, buffing the paint.

This recently sold, one of the most original '69 Yenkos known.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 12, 2017, 02:50:08 AM
 Tomorrow I am going to remove one of the taillight assemblies on the original paint 67 LOS to expose the blackout paint under the gasket and inner frame openings and take closeups. What is visible now is sort of dull from years of paint oxidation so the areas under the gasket should be well preserved being it wasn't exposed to the weather or washing and waxing.

Mike
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: william on December 12, 2017, 03:28:29 AM
Maybe it will look like this. Maybe it won't.

Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: bcmiller on December 12, 2017, 03:50:17 AM
Bill, I am not talking about 69.

Yes, my memory and those of others - when they agree - trump a car that supposedly has original paint. Unless it was under a bubble, never driven or touched and never left the sight of the owner.

There is a guy I know that thinks his GTO is all original. But it was wrecked (by his brother, while the owner was out of town) on a Friday night and back to ďnormalĒ by Monday morning. Sh!t happens and no I am not delirious.

Lots of cars painted with lacquer in the early 80s can look just like original paint cars - if the painter knew what he was doing.  I know of several 60s Impalas that 99.99% of people would swear are original paint.

I respect your opinion and thatís all I am going to say on this topic. Itís OK for us to have different opinions.



Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: william on December 12, 2017, 05:18:54 AM
Here's another discussion on the topic.

http://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134256&highlight=gloss

Here's an older one from our site.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=2458.0

There are several exceptional, original paint survivors with glossy rear panels. Why aren't there any satin survivors?






Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: cook_dw on December 12, 2017, 12:51:53 PM
Like it or not Philip's comment in the sYc thread makes the most sense.  Temp, humidity, and operator are the key factors in how the paint would lay and how much it would shine. 

Quote from: 70 copo
Again I am pretty protective of the book research but again for the sake of giving you a definitive answer here is a Photo excerpt from the book "Echoes of Norwood" © 2013 Philip Borris and some additional non published research that was not put in the book (but perhaps I should have?)

The back panel paint was applied on the line between ovens 2 and 3.  The paint was the same paint used on the rockers.  The gloss difference was a technical result of the temperature differences within the last reflow oven.  The first being where the upper portions of the body were exposed to more consistent heat than the rockers and the reflow process was always more glossy in those areas; If there was a temperature difference in plant say a summer day- the body was already hot going into the oven - warm to the touch- as opposed to a winter day where the body would be cool to the touch.  All of these factors played into the final reflow outcome.  Cars built in cooler conditions in plant probably were less prone to high gloss where cars that cycled into the oven on a hot day had better and more consistent reflow due to the oven getting a fairly warm body to start with..


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is my hope that this will put this issue to bed once and for all. 

The above is an excerpt of an interview from 6 years ago from the paint Department supervisor who was actually there and can prove he was there.   
His name appears on the 1969 personnel listing at Norwood as a Fisher Body employee in paint.   In addition He supervised the man in the picture below.


My Guess...

Cars built in the summer =glossy
Cars built in the winter = less glossy
Spring and Fall <span style=split the gloss

Merry Christmas!!  Enjoy.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: 69Z28-RS on December 12, 2017, 02:52:14 PM
i'm NOT a Phillip fan, but I also lean towards the explanation provided in his post (to explain differences).  To account for, or correct for, 'gloss differences' in differing environments would be very costly (time consuming) and that was not in keeping with the GM philosophy to 'turn out the cars and make money!'..
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 12, 2017, 03:09:04 PM
 I removed the taillight housing on the right side from the 67 04B LOS for the first time since I have owned the car. I did remove the left side in the 80's when I restored the 67 convertible to get an idea of the gloss level. So for the sake of this discussion I wanted to remove the other untouched original. It may be hard to see the gloss in the pictures but in person the gloss looks like a semi-gloss finish. For my current 67 convertible re-restore I sprayed the rockers and tail panel (the picture I posted earlier in this thread doesn't show the gloss due to the poor lighting) with a reduced PPG gloss black using a flattener and using their guidelines I mixed for a 30-40% gloss. This gloss looks like the factory gloss on the 67 LOS so I'm happy with that :)
  Anyhow....here are the pictures with no camera flash, just shop lighting. I did gently wash the exposed areas with some water and soap to remove the dust and used tissue to gently dry it so as not to 'buff' the paint. Some overspray you see is from the factory trunk spatter paint. I used a razor to try to display the paint reflective level (using no camera flash).  I can take more pictures if desired.

Mike
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 12, 2017, 03:09:39 PM
More
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Mike S on December 12, 2017, 03:10:18 PM
and more...
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: bcmiller on December 12, 2017, 03:28:39 PM
Thanks Mike.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: HawkX66 on December 12, 2017, 08:23:36 PM
Good idea with the razor Mike. It shows the contrast well. Yours is what I'd expect to see. It's "glossy", but not full gloss. I still feel like all the survivor cars have been waxed & polished for the last 46+ years which has made them much glossier than what you would have seen in 67-69. The one pic of the survivor Tuxedo black car shows the difference between the tail panel black and what real gloss black looks like. Unfortunately my tail panel black was painted over prior to 83. They didn't go all the way up to the gutter thankfully. I took a few pics while I was disassembling mine and in the pics below is what I found under and around the trunk seal. I posted these in one of the links William posted up, but good ol' Photobucket struck again. In the end, I think I'll take JohnZ's recollection long before everyone else's opinion. Either way, I'll be painting mine similar to what I found under my trunk seal.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/514/31765596313_4810d04003_z.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/265/32577409925_f4929cba49_z.jpg)




I just don't think the difference in gloss levels gets any clearer than this:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4517/38875101691_63da8853d5_z.jpg)
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: william on December 12, 2017, 11:10:09 PM
I believe the pic of the black '69 is telling. Per the paint charts for '69 the formula used for Tuxedo Black is 9300; the black used for stripes is 9000. The rear panel was probably the same black used for striping. Was done after reflow; not sanded or polished.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: L78 steve on December 13, 2017, 12:42:24 AM
When this procedure was taped out at the factory it was done fast. So to reproduce correctly do it fast with little care of how it turns out.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Sauron327 on December 13, 2017, 03:18:52 AM
Here's another discussion on the topic.

http://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=134256&highlight=gloss

Here's an older one from our site.

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=2458.0

There are several exceptional, original paint survivors with glossy rear panels. Why aren't there any satin survivors?







Jerry states in that thread that eggshell has more gloss than satin. Industry standards dictate satin has more gloss than eggshell which contradicts his data. The gloss level of unbuffed lacquer exceeds an eggshell finish. I wonder how many people on this site stock various sheens of black, have sprayed it and other products daily or weekly for decades, stock flattening agent, or have shot lacquer over the years. Jobbers and shops have decks that dictate gloss levels, common for those who do this every day. Most who are not professionals commonly misuse paint terminology, which only adds to the confusion.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Sauron327 on December 13, 2017, 03:32:25 AM
When this procedure was taped out at the factory it was done fast. So to reproduce correctly do it fast with little care of how it turns out.
Exactly. Those with little exposure to survivors or old cars in general expect these cars to look like late model cars. I'm restoring a 67 for someone and the RH side of the tailpanel was cracked when stamped, poorly aligned with the quarter from the factory, and poorly welded. Assembly line sloppiness was not uncommon. It was considered transportation, not a work of art or showcar.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: cook_dw on December 13, 2017, 01:44:17 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/RL0xU1daTlMoE/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: HawkX66 on December 13, 2017, 07:13:07 PM
If  you don't have anything constructive to offer, how about just moving on to another thread? Some of us know we don't know everything about 1st gens and still like to discuss differences of opinions on things that matter to us.
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: cook_dw on December 13, 2017, 08:28:38 PM
Lighten up Dave.  Damn
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: Tinbasher on December 15, 2017, 02:51:24 AM
Thanks Guys: Just got back to the site. A lot of excellent information. It will be a great help.

Tinbasher
Title: Re: 1967 RS/SS black paint on rear tail light panel.
Post by: KurtS on December 15, 2017, 06:22:34 AM
There's a difference between seeing a reflection and seeing a reflection in full-gloss paint.
Full-gloss is closer to a mirror. Look at a pic of a black full-gloss tailpanel to see the difference.