CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: baldeaglemtnman on February 01, 2007, 03:47:30 AM

Title: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: baldeaglemtnman on February 01, 2007, 03:47:30 AM
About a year ago I purchased a short block assembly that was date correct for the car I am restoring.  I have an 11C built car (19N545911) that was supposed to be a real deal pre-X Z.  (2 years and many Benjamins later, I still can't prove or disprove - to my satisfaction - whether it is/was a Z, but that's another story.)  The motor is a 386 block, casting date J 17 8, and an assembly stamp V1019DZ. If it makes any difference on the bogus meter 10-19-68 was a Saturday. The VIN stamp is difficult to read and could only be seen with a magnifying glass after I got the bare block back from the machine shop. It's by the oil filter and I'm pretty sure reads 19N533186. Does this sequence fit with the motor build date? Also, weren't the early VIN's stamped on the engine pad and later moved to the area above the oil filter to save time pulling the alternator on the assembly line? The motor has been rebuilt from carb to pan, and from a component standpoint is every bit a "DZ".  I just need to know if the block is a factory original.  Out of frustration, I may end up be selling the entire lot, and even though I purchased everything as "authentic", I can't, in good conscience, sell it that way if it isn't. Any help would be greatly appreciated.  And yes, not surprisingly, I'm considering buying some ocean front property in Phoenix.
                                                                                                    Thanks,  Steve
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: rsatz28 on February 01, 2007, 01:18:58 PM
For what it's worth, I have an 68 11A build Z, 535xxx, V1029DZ stamp, and my VIN is also down by the oil filter. If memory serves me correct, my 86 block was cast very late September, which was about 4 weeks prior to the assembly date.

I sent pictures the engine stamp to Kurt S of this board and he was fine with my stamp.  Kurt thought it was slightly unusual (or words to that effect)  that my early Nov VIN stamp was by the filter.

Edited: 2/5/07  Had wrong engine build date of 10/12-Engine build date is 10/29.

Change wording on # of weeks prior to engine build date to casting date.  Had 6 weeks-now 4 weeks
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: sam on February 01, 2007, 02:27:45 PM
We are all pretty close. My car is 19N547891. (11D)
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: VI009DZ on February 03, 2007, 02:09:47 AM
I have 19N521696 (10C) , VI009DZ and the VIN is stamped in the pad, not down by the filter. Block casting J18 on a 3932386 block.

12B was the cutoff for x-codes; anything after 12B will have one, prior to 12B won't, and 12B seems to be split either way.  Have you pulled your rear seat to see if there is an X7 on the rear bulkhead?
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: baldeaglemtnman on February 03, 2007, 03:27:08 AM
Yes.  Nothing there. In fact the entire interior is out and most of the car is in pieces-- looking for clues.  The car is super solid all original GM sheetmetal but it has really been played with. No original drivetrain.  What I know is that the car is an original non-air 4 speed, power disc brakes. quick-ratio power steering, single fuel line, dual exhaust, and I did find an air pressure sticker for E70-15 tires inside the glove box door but no DX door sticker.
Our motors were cast a day apart and assembled 10 days apart but our VINs are 11,490 cars off. Would 533186 be in the 11A time frame? Maybe the VIN location switch was made during this time?  ???
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: sam on February 03, 2007, 03:56:24 AM
 I have a friend with a hugger orange 69 Z with the sticker on the glove box door also. Never saw that before now I know of 2 like that.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: VI009DZ on February 03, 2007, 01:35:30 PM
11,490 cars between my 10C and your 11A.  At peak operation, Norwood was rolling about 1,500 cars per day off the line.  At that rate, we're ~8 days apart based on VIN.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: william on February 03, 2007, 03:31:39 PM
At peak operation, Norwood was rolling about 1,500 cars per day off the line. 

That's about double, dude. Norwood did around 800 Camaros per workday. Don't go by body tag dates and VINs. Do the math-165,300 cars between the start of 1969 production [08D] and June 30, 1969, maybe 212 workdays.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: JohnZ on February 03, 2007, 04:36:31 PM
Norwood ran 57 jobs per hour (912 per day), all Camaros until mid-April, 1969, when they picked up the Firebird production from Lordstown.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: cjm465 on February 04, 2007, 02:26:58 AM
  I was checking out some 69 Z's online and found a Daytona Yellow Z28/RS at Corvettesandmusclecars.com ( Northwest Auto Sales ). The trim tag has a 12A build date but also has X-33. Is that a phony tag on that car? Just wondering as I keep reading that 12B is the transition to X-code dates?
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: paceme on February 04, 2007, 03:02:59 AM
  I was checking out some 69 Z's online and found a Daytona Yellow Z28/RS at Corvettesandmusclecars.com ( Northwest Auto Sales ). The trim tag has a 12A build date but also has X-33. Is that a phony tag on that car? Just wondering as I keep reading that 12B is the transition to X-code dates?

Fake tag
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: baldeaglemtnman on February 04, 2007, 03:00:39 PM
So, using John's 912/day, 11A would be a reasonable guess for a 19N533186 motor compared to the 10C.  I still don't quite understand the discrepencies in the VIN location. Seems like I've seen it both places on early-mid year cars.  I'm just concerned about the one I have being real. We all know Ebay has sold more original "matching numbers" Z/28's than GM built.

Sam - No one has told me that the glove box sticker is (or even could be) legit. Please don't go by me. Would be nice if it was.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: VI009DZ on February 05, 2007, 09:14:27 PM
At peak operation, Norwood was rolling about 1,500 cars per day off the line. 

That's about double, dude. Norwood did around 800 Camaros per workday. Don't go by body tag dates and VINs. Do the math-165,300 cars between the start of 1969 production [08D] and June 30, 1969, maybe 212 workdays.
sorry....fat-fingered the calculator on that one. 
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: Southerner on March 10, 2007, 09:55:31 AM
Just for the record my car was built 12B second week of Dec 68 Tr 712 ,  71 71 PNT, whats all this about 12B being a cut off week ? Vin 124379L5128XX I have a DZ that was cast no 3932386 and date I 25 8
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: blownz on March 10, 2007, 01:24:35 PM
I have a K78 DZ short blk, it is a 3932386, and the front pad has V1I14DZ and the vin number is  19N557648.  I have had this short block for 10 yrs.  I have a 02D Z/28 that I have owned since 79'.  I wish I could find a late Jan or early Feb Block.  I also have a D109, 3956618, V0411DZ blk.  The vin on it I cannot read.

Wayne
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: GaryL on March 10, 2007, 03:33:20 PM
I have a K78 DZ short blk, it is a 3932386, and the front pad has V1I14DZ and the vin number is  19N557648.  I have had this short block for 10 yrs.  I have a 02D Z/28 that I have owned since 79'.  I wish I could find a late Jan or early Feb Block.  I also have a D109, 3956618, V0411DZ blk.  The vin on it I cannot read.

Wayne

My 02D X33 has a V1I19DZ motor. It is an LA block with the VIN down by the filter. Unless I can find something very close or exact I won't change.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: JackalsZ on January 12, 2016, 01:33:06 AM
I have a V0130DZ block
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: blackthunder on February 15, 2016, 07:48:19 AM
try scibling hard with pencil and paper acrossed itseen that work before
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: jdv69z on February 15, 2016, 02:47:58 PM
About a year ago I purchased a short block assembly that was date correct for the car I am restoring.  I have an 11C built car (19N545911) that was supposed to be a real deal pre-X Z.  (2 years and many Benjamins later, I still can't prove or disprove - to my satisfaction - whether it is/was a Z, but that's another story.)  The motor is a 386 block, casting date J 17 8, and an assembly stamp V1019DZ. If it makes any difference on the bogus meter 10-19-68 was a Saturday. The VIN stamp is difficult to read and could only be seen with a magnifying glass after I got the bare block back from the machine shop. It's by the oil filter and I'm pretty sure reads 19N533186. Does this sequence fit with the motor build date? Also, weren't the early VIN's stamped on the engine pad and later moved to the area above the oil filter to save time pulling the alternator on the assembly line? The motor has been rebuilt from carb to pan, and from a component standpoint is every bit a "DZ".  I just need to know if the block is a factory original.  Out of frustration, I may end up be selling the entire lot, and even though I purchased everything as "authentic", I can't, in good conscience, sell it that way if it isn't. Any help would be greatly appreciated.  And yes, not surprisingly, I'm considering buying some ocean front property in Phoenix.
                                                                                                    Thanks,  Steve

Looks like 2 days from cast date to motor assembly. That's how mine is spaced, cast date is I 10 8, and engine assembly is V0912DZ. My car's build is 10B, 2nd week Oct, so about 4 weeks between engine assembly and final install in car. Looks like your engine assembly to final install is about 4 weeks as well. Date timing seems plausible/reasonable to me. My VIN is stamped on the pad next to the build date, not by the oil filter.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: X33RS on February 15, 2016, 03:40:47 PM
His post is 9 years old but you bring up an interesting point Jimmy.  Something I've been throwing back and forth with a couple of members.  With his car being an 11C build and the vin at the oil filter, and yours a 10B and the vin is on the pad.

Mine is a 12D and the vin is at the oil filter as well.  At some point in that Nov/Dec time frame Norwood made that transition.  I've seen 2 other cars very close to my build with the vin at the oil filter as well, that tells me this practice was getting pretty consistent by then.

However the JM book briefly mentions the change happens sometime in January.  I tend to believe it was happening a little sooner as the evidence suggests.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: jdv69z on February 15, 2016, 04:24:28 PM
I think JM's book is from 2008 or so? Maybe info on issues like this has become better understood or defined since the last publishing.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: X33RS on February 15, 2016, 04:29:57 PM
You're probably right.  I just bought the book after I joined this site and I think it was already a few years old.
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: ban617 on February 15, 2016, 09:34:13 PM
Mine is an 03D build Vannuys & the Vin is on the deck
Title: Re: Is my DZ motor a phony?
Post by: firstgenaddict on February 16, 2016, 05:40:05 PM
My 10D early Z28 had the VIN on the top pad
386 block
V1007DZ 
N531,xxx