CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: 69camaroguy on January 31, 2007, 08:10:40 PM
-
I have an early production Z/28 behind my rear seat i can make out a yellow crayon mark of 3 and some letter infront of it maybe an R
i'm worndering if any one can help me decode those crayon marks??? thanks aton
-
Should be an X3, X7, X1, X2, X6, etc.
Jerry
-
I have an 11D Z/28 car and my grease pencil says DG3. I have a dark green interior. Another early car I saw has an R1. I guess red interior X11 car. Maybe the same person or shift.
-
I have an X77 Hugger Orange Z and have an X7 on my bulkhead, and found "ORN" or "ORG" on the firewall. My memory is a little fuzzy this morning.
-
Here is a shot of the "X1" on my car.
Billy
-
I found yellow crayon marks on the underside of the front subframe of my '68 if that helps anyone.
-
My X7
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/839913/rearseatX7Marking.JPG)
-
My X7
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/839913/rearseatX7Marking.JPG)
An here is my 68 11A bulkhead marking:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k62/satz28/DCP00797.jpg)
-
Just checked my 11C 69 Z/28 and there is an LG7 on the bulkhead. I guess this stands for "light green X77". My trim tag is 721 (medium green interior)
-
Sounds like the same folks built our cars. I am a week after you. ;D
-
so all you need to see the marks is remove the rear seat, correct?
Jimmy V.
-
so all you need to see the marks is remove the rear seat, correct?
Jimmy V.
Yes - pop out the rear cushion, then remove two bolts through the tabs on the bottom of the rear back cushion and lift it off its hanger brackets.
-
The reddish color on V1009DZ's pic, is that the factory primer or what? In Jerry's book he said floor pans could be semi-gloss black, mine were the color of V1009DZ's rear bulkhead.
-
Here is a pic of a non X code SS I once owned with an X5.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w272/dannylcmc/100_1004.jpg
-
The reddish color on V1009DZ's pic, is that the factory primer or what? In Jerry's book he said floor pans could be semi-gloss black, mine were the color of V1009DZ's rear bulkhead.
Yup, that's factory primer.
-
Just took the seat out of my X22 L89 and took this pic.
-
Just folded down the seat in my 12B RS/SS and found a small X 1. There is no X code on my trim tag. Also, there is almost no red primer behind/under my seat or under the carpet. Mostly body color.
John
-
Also, there is almost no red primer behind/under my seat or under the carpet. Mostly body color.
John
That's because it has a fold-down rear seat back, and that area is exposed when the seat is folded down.
-
Just curious, Has any markings been found for Z11 or Z10 cars?
Thanks
Dean
-
Hello to all, since I'm new here, I need some help with my 69 Camaro. I just recently started a restoration and I've found what appears to be a yellow crayon mark on the bulkhead between the passenger compartment and the trunk, it is X1, does anyone know what this mark might have indicated? Thanks in advance....Clint
-
Pace cars have X0 on them (I assume to indicate the need for Z28 style stripe override). I have never looked at mine to see if its there or not, but next time the seat is out I will. Don't know if anyone has ever looked on a Z10 (at least I don't recall a discussion on it) maybe they have an X0 as well.
-
05D X-33 Fathom Green/Dark Green interior with DG-3 bulkhead mark.
X-44 project with Dark Green interior with DG-4 bulkhead mark.
Pics attached
-
Dean,
Several years ago I had my seat out to install a new shelf. I don't recall seeing an X mark. During the holidatys I'll take it off and take a look.
Kris
-
I have not heard definative info on these crayon marking anomolies. I have a '69 Norwood 10A (1968) with a "LG7" on the bulkhead. This car had a "Light Green" comfortweave interior originaly. Is anyone tracking these data points? I have a picture somewhere if needed.
-Mark.
-
Here is a photo of the crayon X7 on my passenger's side rear bulkhead 1969 03B X77 72 72 Camaro.
http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq270/OneNineSixtyNine/DSC00045.jpg
-
Here is mine in case anyone would like to see it.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/20u795c.jpg)
-Mark.
-
For additional reference, here's the mark on my 69 Z. Trim tag is 10B, Oct '68
Jimmy V.
-
I have an x77 car, no mark on rear bulkhead. Does anyone have a car with out mark behind seat? BTW I am pretty sure it's real, I've posted tag on here before.
-
I have a 10C (1969) X11 car with no marking behind the seat. The only "graffiti" present are what's left of the PTB stamps. Is is possible to see the faint outline of an extra stray "T" from the PTB on the driver's side of the firewall.
c
-
For additional reference, here's the mark on my 69 Z. Trim tag is 10B, Oct '68
Jimmy V.
Jimmy,
Is that a Norwood car or LOS?
-Mark.
-
Jimmy,
Is that a Norwood car or LOS?
Mark -
Jimmy's car was built at Norwood. ;)
Paul
-
Yes, mine's a Norwood car, and it currently resides not five miles as the crow flies from where that plant used to be.
Jimmy V.
-
Interesting.
I was guessing the code anomolies such as mine were an "early" thing, but based on his "normal" looking codes that theory goes away. Our cars are only a week apart.
Maybe it had something to do with specific interior colors or combinations? We may never know for sure.
-Mark.
-
Yes, until recently I assumed only cars with X coded trim tags had the crayon markings. Then someone on this site mentioned that his early car (close to my build date) had the markings, so I decided to check my car to see if I had them. Sure enough they are there. I had the car for 25 years before finding this out. I do have an X code, it's just not on the trim plate. My package shelf doesn't look so great, but I'm glad it has never been replaced. The markings might have been lost if the shelf had been replaced.
Jimmy V.
-
Thats not just a 69 thing. 4K 67 cars have a K there too
-
reply to save as subscribed.
-
One X4 here
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/67014625/My%20crayon%20marks%20behind%20rear%20seat%20-%20X4.JPG)
-
my 12a 69 has x2 crayon, not on trim tag.
-
My Z10 had X0
-
Has anyone ever found any marks in this area on 68 Camaros?
-
My 01C Norwood built '69 RS; X1 and what looks like a B to the left of the X
-
Looked at an x33 that a friend is working on and wanted to share. Car is a 12B with x code. Found this behind seat. Car has been off road for years. Has CEA block header/side pipes, 4,88 gears. Painted pearl white with green stripes. Fathom with green interior. Interesting car
-
Good post Bill . Lets see a new post with some updated pics of your car for the spring, I gotta think it should be pretty close to being ready right?
-
I actually saw it today! It has no paint but it is moving along. There is a car there he's finishing up then mine will be ready for paint. He has the doors adjusted and it has been blocked once. My passengers doors was out at the rear bottom far enough you could put your fingers under the edge
-
I look forward to you and Jano's cars coming together, and then hopefully we will see James (Ko-lec-tor) car in progress!
-
Has anyone ever seen a Black Z28 Crayon Marking? It looks like many of the cars have the color in the code, but would black be a "B"? Anyone have any pictures of such a Car?
-
No it would not be a B unless it had BLUE interior.
-
Gotcha, thank you. After doing some research on paint codes and tags, I found the information. If anything, it looks like this code could be an X (normal mark without a color code) or a E if it was black, as those were the color codes from 67 and 68. In 69 trim tag codes were numbered, but may not be reflected in the crayon mark. But it looks like these things were just indicators, not smoking guns.
Thanks again for your help!
-
E is deepwater Blue.
A is BLACK in 67-68
-
E is deepwater Blue.
A is BLACK in 67-68
Yes, I see the exterior color codes are different from interior codes. My understanding from this thread is that crayon was the interior codes, and according to http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#InteriorColors, I thought E to be black.
If the Exterior color is marked here, then "A" would be black. But I don't really know what these mean as there are a lot of cars marked with an "X", but some cars seem to have the interior color code, and others seem to have no pattern. But I am just wondering. It seems if a car was marked "B" it may have meant a blue interior.
But it seems all speculation as this was not a part of the car that was verified by the factory before the car left. The trim tags, VINs and vin Stamping were probably verified, but I would imagine not crayon marks. So any human error here may not have been corrected before the cars left is all I am saying.
-
The marking behind the rear seat indicated to the assembly line workers at Fisher Body what body that they were building. The reason it is written here is that some line operations were done before the trim tag was installed. So it was the way the body build was identified, and any error here would have resulted in an incorrect body being built. Not a small problem.
-
My 05B X 55 cowl tag has yellow X5 on rear bulkhead.
-
The marking behind the rear seat indicated to the assembly line workers at Fisher Body what body that they were building. The reason it is written here is that some line operations were done before the trim tag was installed. So it was the way the body build was identified, and any error here would have resulted in an incorrect body being built. Not a small problem.
Yes, that would be a problem. It’s pretty amazing to think about it. When I visited the Mercedes plant in Germany, the parts essentially get handed to the installers on arms. As the part gets “handed” from arm to arm, it’s scanned and verified at each step.
Do you know why some come with an X and others with a color code? This is pretty cool history to learn about. Or is X a color code of sorts?
-
X is the default... meaning Black- (most interior colors had black painted trim)
All 4 of the houndstooth had black painted trim - all the black and white interiors had black painted trim. Every color interior except Greens, Red, and Blue had black painted interior trim -
-
X is the default... meaning Black- (most interior colors had black painted trim)
All 4 of the houndstooth had black painted trim - all the black and white interiors had black painted trim. Every color interior except Greens, Red, and Blue had black painted interior trim -
Thanks! That's good information, and makes a lot of sense. The code is for the paint on the inside of the body, but not necessarily for the interior fabric or external color of the car. Correct?
-
The marking behind the rear seat indicated to the assembly line workers at Fisher Body what body that they were building. The reason it is written here is that some line operations were done before the trim tag was installed. So it was the way the body build was identified, and any error here would have resulted in an incorrect body being built. Not a small problem.
Yes, that would be a problem. It’s pretty amazing to think about it. When I visited the Mercedes plant in Germany, the parts essentially get handed to the installers on arms. As the part gets “handed” from arm to arm, it’s scanned and verified at each step.
Do you know why some come with an X and others with a color code? This is pretty cool history to learn about. Or is X a color code of sorts?
My X77 (January car) has the X7 on the bulkhead. Le Mans, black std. interior.
Interesting about your trip to the Mercedes plant - V6/V8 plant in Stuttgart ? I toured the plant in 2000, interesting to see the mix of old craftsmanship and modern technology. I was particularly impressed with the "green energy" solar roof on the plant generating for the suplemental electrical needs of the operation.
Regards,
Steve
-
My X77 (January car) has the X7 on the bulkhead. Le Mans, black std. interior.
Interesting about your trip to the Mercedes plant - V6/V8 plant in Stuttgart ? I toured the plant in 2000, interesting to see the mix of old craftsmanship and modern technology. I was particularly impressed with the "green energy" solar roof on the plant generating for the suplemental electrical needs of the operation.
Regards,
Steve
Yes Stuttgart! It was pretty awesome. 2 people run the Frame and Body "shop" All robots handing whole cars from station to station welding in parts as they go. Just incredible. Then the size of the plant, then the 10KM stretch of the river that is all dedicated to suppliers to feed the plant with all sorts of small parts that end up on the line. I was there in 2018. Really cool experiance.
-
I remember being in the paint area at the Van Nuys Plant in 1985 when a group from Mercedes Benz viewed our new facilities, which at the time were supposed to be one of the most advanced water-based paint systems in use. Due to the strict environmental laws in California, we had clean rooms set up where the cars were painted, with the paint fumes passed through carbon filters. Due to the inversion layer conditions in the San Fernando Valley, they had to install these tall stacks in an effort to disburse the remaining fumes, but I don't believe we ever were able to meet the State standards when at full production. When Van Nuys went to one shift however, we met the local smog laws as the inversion layer conditions were usually during 2nd shift. Unfortunately, the only assembly plant at GM at the time that could make a profit with only one production shift was the Corvette plant in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I did visit Bowl Green when they had two shifts in 1986 and found out that they didn't stop the assembly line during a shift change as it was moving so slowly that it wasn't necessary!
-
I remember being in the paint area at the Van Nuys Plant in 1985 when a group from Mercedes Benz viewed our new facilities, which at the time were supposed to be one of the most advanced water-based paint systems in use. Due to the strict environmental laws in California, we had clean rooms set up where the cars were painted, with the paint fumes passed through carbon filters. Due to the inversion layer conditions in the San Fernando Valley, they had to install these tall stacks in an effort to disburse the remaining fumes, but I don't believe we ever were able to meet the State standards when at full production. When Van Nuys went to one shift however, we met the local smog laws as the inversion layer conditions were usually during 2nd shift. Unfortunately, the only assembly plant at GM at the time that could make a profit with only one production shift was the Corvette plant in Bowling Green, Kentucky. I did visit Bowl Green when they had two shifts in 1986 and found out that they didn't stop the assembly line during a shift change as it was moving so slowly that it wasn't necessary!
That's some cool history, I love the ins and outs of car production history It seems like these companies played big risk games, with unwilling governments, and being responsible for such a large work force. Its all quite amazing to me. It makes me feel pretty small, and that's a good thing, and humbling.
How long did you work there?
-
When our project to update our paint shop was submitted to Central Office, my contact told me that there was no support to invest more money to keep the Van Nuys Plant open. Alexander Cunningham, the Vice Chairman of General Motors at the time, was in charge of appropriations, and when our project was presented, Cunningham said "I think it is a good idea" and it was approved. I told my contact, Richard, why didn't you tell him to reconsider. When sales of Camaros and Firebirds slowed to where GM only needed one assembly plant, most were surprised when it was decided to keep Van Nuys open and close Norwood as due to shipping costs, it was estimated that it cost $400 per vehicle more to build the F car in California. I worked nearly a decade at the Van Nuys Plant and then transferred to Delco Electronics in Goleta, CA, working on defense programs, which was interesting, but not nearly as much fun as seeing cars going down the line at Van Nuys.
-
That must have been a sight to see! It is strange how big decisions at plants get made. $400 a car is a considerable amount to think about.
I miss California. I like to get down the west coast every year or two if I can, but not this last year.
-
I pulled my rear seat to check the codes and found that they did not skimp on the adhesive. It appears to me that more adhesive was added sometime later than when the car was built because of the differences in the material, application, and layering. Is all that adhesive original? Based on this discussion, I believe the code should be B 3, for blue interior in an X33. I can kind of make that out, but probably not if I didn't have that expectation. I doubt I can remove the adhesive without damaging the code, so I am inclined to leave it alone unless it can be removed without inflicting damage. Any ideas on how to remove the adhesive without damaging the codes?
-
I agree B 3
FWIW The glue may not stick to the grease pencil. So it may come off VERY easy where it crosses over the grease pencil.
-
Be careful. 50 years old grease pencil marks are close to the consistency of chalk at this point. You can wipe a lot of the grease marks off pretty easy. The color does stay where it was drawn originally but the build up crayon can be removed without much abrasion. Maybe better to leave it alone.
-
I appreciate another opinion that I am not the only one seeing a B 3 and only because that's what I want to see. I am going to leave it alone, that's good enough for me. Thanks for the responses.