CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Mild Modifications => Topic started by: JESSE TACKETT on July 23, 2017, 12:36:50 PM
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Hey guys, newbie (to the board) here. I have a 69 camaro I intend to restore and hope install a BB chevy with a 69 400/427 tripower setup. Just wondering if anyone has pics of a 69 with an SS hood and this intake/carb combination.
Jess in ky
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Welcome to the CRG!
Sounds like you have a fun project on your hands. There may not be a guy running that exact set up here. You did not mention which intake you have or carbs, I am guessing you will be running something similar to the Vette set up?
If you run the low profile intake i would think it would fit. Worst case you have to make some solid motor mounts that lower the engine a bit for clearance.
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Hello Bullit
Yes, it is a vette setup (400hp 427, oval port, 69 model). I searched the web, but had no luck finding an example of my future combo. On a side note, I had and restored a garnet red 69 Z back in the 80's. Original matching numbers car, red with a red interior, factory 4.10 gear car. It was a blast. The car I hope to restore soon is my wife's car (we both had 69s when we first got married). I sold mine, but we still have hers (it was her first car). jess
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This combination is shown in the '67 assembly manual as a cancelled project. I forget which hood was used.
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This combination is shown in the '67 assembly manual as a cancelled project. I forget which hood was used.
RPO L70 was a small block prototype cancelled long before the Camaro was introduced.
As for an L68 fitting under the SS hood, I would say it "might" fit. Dana, Nickey, Motion, etc... offered the Tri-power upgrade on their 427 transplants for only around $150 extra, so we know it can be done, but of course, they all used custom hoods. The ZL2 hood might be a better option? I believe the engine and intake/carbs will fit no problem, but the main issue might be the air cleaner.
Send it all to me and I'll check it out for you. Although, it may take me several years to get it back to you!!!!
;D
Ed
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Thanks Ed, I was going by memory and forgot it was a small block.
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Thanks guys....
"...The ZL2 hood might be a better option? I believe the engine and intake/carbs will fit no problem, but the main issue might be the air cleaner...."
I have searched the web numerous times (with no luck) looking for someone who may have fabbed up a "cowl induction" air cleaner to mate a BB tri-power to a ZL2 hood, or modified the bottom of the hood to mate to a triangular tri-power air cleaner. I don't believe there is room inside the correct round base to mate the three carb base and still have room for an element. Am I correct in thinking the dual four Z28 option with the oval air cleaner only mated to a fiberglass hood or was a steel hood available with a modified understructure? Sorry for all the questions, just thinking out loud.
Jess
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I don't believe there is room inside the correct round base to mate the three carb base and still have room for an element.
That's my thinking as well, but if you measure how wide the air cleaner is, I'll check my SS hood. Someone else will have to check the cowl hood since I don't have one.
Am I correct in thinking the dual four Z28 option with the oval air cleaner only mated to a fiberglass hood or was a steel hood available with a modified understructure?
If you have the "Camaro, Untold Secrets" book by Wayne Guinn, there's a chapter on the fiberglass crossram hood in it, and on page 98 it shows a ZL2 hood next to the crossram hood. The fiberglass hood has a larger "cut-out" for the air cleaner (see example below), but I don't know the dimensions. I'll see if I can get more info and permission to post a picture from Wayne's book.
Ed
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The cowl hood opening is about 15 1/2". Most of the systems I see only show this as an option. http://hotrodcarbs.com/store/custom-tri-power-air-cleaners.html
If you had the round top carbs you could get away with a round air cleaner and probably make it fit to the cowl hood with the seal and have it functional. http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Tripower_air_cleaners.htm
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Is the base of the cowl air cleaner is bigger than the open element? Maybe you could custom make a bottom for the cowl air cleaner with a bottom from a tri power?
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Do your own homework.......but I believe '67 intakes are lower than the later years. Might get you where you need to be.
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Maybe you could custom make a bottom for the cowl air cleaner with a bottom from a tri power
....this is what I figured someone had maybe already done, what I had been searching for. Repops of the tri-power air cleaner are cheap enough to sacrifice one for this. I'm a long way from being there right now anyway, so plenty of time to experiment. I have both a cowl ind hood and an SS hood for the car and can go either way. Just thought it would be cool to fab up something close to what GM would have offered, and thought someone may have already done it. Thanks for the replies.
Jess
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I spoke to Troy about this yesterday and he said that Bill Thomas installed the 427 Tri-power in several cars but left the SS hood installed as a "sleeper" because that's what the owners wanted. The side to side was okay, but the front may "just touch", but not enough to make any difference. However, you can't run the hood insulation unless you cut it out for the triangular air cleaner.
Ed
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That would have a very high cool factor to pop the hood and see that chrome triangle air cleaner!
Ed, what a great view of the underside of the crossram hood! For being resized to fit within the parameters of this forum, it's incredibly large and crisp.
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There was a 67 Camaro at Charlotte Spring Show for sale with a 68 vette 427 400 tri power all under the hood... looked really clean in there was all exactly as would have been as done in 1968. was a 350 295 4 spd A/C originally everything was there and hooked up ac all.
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Thanks James, that is great news, my car is a factory ac car too and I intend to keep it that way. I would love to find out who built that car and ask him a few questions (like did he use the taller bb motor mount frame bracket on the driver side). I'm assuming it had the SS hood?
Jess
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Knew I had photos... this was 6-7 years ago.
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here is the seller's ad from 2011 ish...
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Do your own homework.......but I believe '67 intakes are lower than the later years. Might get you where you need to be.
I believe 67 tri-power (L71) had higher intakes then in later 68/69 years. If someone needs I have a 69 Camaro with a original cross-ram with repro steel hood if measurements are needed. I remember 67 Camaro with L71's fitting under the hood and it was way COOL.
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I've only ever owned the 69 version pictured above, the intake seemed to me to be pretty flat and I had previously read what Chick says, that the earlier versions were taller. I'd really be interested in seeing the bottom of that hood ( "original cross-ram with repro steel hood" ) if it differs from original round hole ZL2 hoods.
Jess
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jt did you ever get this installed? I finally think I have a 68 set up coming to try on my 69 Camaro with SS hood.
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Gee, no Kelly. I haven't even gotten started on my restoration yet. Too many responsibilities right now. I am excited to know if your 68 version fits under your hood though. I am far from an authority but I understand the earlier versions were somewhat taller, however I suspect the taller ones are 67 versions, since the C4 (68 up)vettes body changed and I believe the hood clearance was reduced. Please keep me informed of your progress. (Pics would be great too!!)
Jess
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The unit should come next week. We have a 427 on a test stand that I will put it on to tune before I install it on the Camaro. I will post some pic,s.
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Well my tripower came in just before Christmas and of course I had minor surgery right after. I am really pleased with how complete and nice the system is for an ebay find. The picture of the 67 Camaro shows a 68 or 69 unit. The heater hose pointing up instead of to the front like a 67 tells the difference. The 67,s are over 1 inch taller. As soon as I can get around we will find out how a tripower fits under a non cowl 69 SS hood.
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Got around to starting to sort the tripower out. I set it on a bucket next to the test engine stand and pumped some fuel in it. So many leaks I could not count them. Surprisingly the next day the gaskets must have swollen and I was down to just a couple but the needle and seats and floats worked perfect. Got some part # specific kits ordered.
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NICE. That will be a cool looking set up.
Once installed you could tell people " it came in the trunk of your car when new, and the dealer installed it...."
Isn't that what the cross ram guys do? :P ;D ;D ;D
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NICE. That will be a cool looking set up.
Once installed you could tell people " it came in the trunk of your car when new, and the dealer installed it...."
Isn't that what the cross ram guys do? :P ;D ;D ;D
No, they usually say it is factory original and very rare... :) What's really rare with these is keeping fuel in your fuel tank! :)
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The cool factor is what I am going for. Watching people at the cruise ins do a double take and probably that guy who (ordered one new just like it) back in the day. The fuel thing is a non issue. An L78 with 355 gears and my foot can,t get much worse.
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Update, two of the 3 specific kits came in and I have them installed. While waiting for them and recovering from surgery I found several Utube videos on Holley carbs. I have what I thought was rebuilding them for years. The videos explained what the specific passages do, testing power valves, adjusting accelerator pumps, and other things I most likely overlooked. I also found some trash in one of the bowls that I said "how the #%@& did that make it in there". We are carefull about fuel filters ect. while not cleaning the inside of the air filter carefully. The open bowl vents tubes are the largest opening available. I found what looked like a string off a rag and a chunk of something in one that could not have made it through the needle and seat. I will be more carefull from now on to inspect the air cleaner housing any particles. One more kit and engine test.
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Good post, and interesting topic and project you have going there! :) I, for one, would love to see some photos of what you are doing as you progress... and the YouTube videos you referenced would be a good addition... (I've always just rebuilt per the Service/Overhaul manuals...).
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Always been a fan of the tri-power cars, I think I remember seeing a 1967 Deepwater Blue Nickey with a tri power at the 1985 World Of Wheels Auto-rama in the Seattle Coliseum show in fall of 85's I need to look for a instamatic pic I took and scan it and post it.
Thanks for the spotting tip on the water outlet, I always assumed all three years were the same, but it make sense cause of the alternator relocation issues with that outlet.
Go ahead and post some of those Holley links if you can
Jim
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I know this is an old thread, but it seems that a tri-power set up might fit on a big block under a stock Camaro hood.
One way to find out is to measure the height of a stock Chevy bbc intake, 4-barrel carb and aircleaner and compare that to the measured height of a stock Corvette tripower intake, carbs, and air cleaner. Both measurements would need to be taken from a similar, unmovable point on both intakes, like the holes where the intake bolts pass through.
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Update on my set up. Got all the carbs sorted out and tested them on the test engine. A little tweaking and they worked really well. I have some pictures and a short video of it running on the 427 tester but I cannot get them to post. I have sent them to a fellow member if he wants to post. All information says it will fit but the true test is when I install it on my 69 SS. It is a 68 unit which is shorter than a 67 by over a inch. May get it on by next weekend. Also while checking Ebay for some choke parts I saw a plastic tote full of tripower parts with no bids. I tested the water with a number and well, I have that set up also.
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While tuning my tripowers on our test engine I verified some things. This was on GM aluminum intakes. The rectangle port intake will fit over oval port heads. Use the rectangle gaskets. No noticeable affect on street driving. The oval port intake will not cover the ports on rectangle port heads. Since the bolts of course do line up I checked for an adapter but found nothing. If someone knows of one I could use one. For tuning I may try using the oval port gasket that is not cut to the intake lines but straight across but if it works I would not use it to drive because the gasket material would be the only thing preventing vac leaks. A metal plate similar to the ones for blocking or reducing the heat riser ports would work and I may try to make some by making a cardboard template and having them cut with a plasma cutter. Something else I found during testing was that the secondary return linkage on the tripower must work perfectly. Any binding or misadjustment will cause the secondary carbs to slightly open which really messes up idle and part throttle running.
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I used the Mr. Gasket oval port gaskets on the rectangle port heads to test. They worked fine. If I was going to drive it I would make a metal plate the same type as the heat riser block off plate supplied with gaskets to go over each pair of ports. This set took me a couple hours to debug and tune also but ran very good after that. The felpro or any gasket that matches the ports will not work.
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I finally got the tripower installed on my L78 last night. Since I had already run it on the test stand motor it went fine. I did the old blue tape on the valve covers for distributer timing and bolted everything on and it fired up and ran great with only an idle adjustment. The L78 throttle linkage is a little to long and the coil bracket would only take one bolt but everything else fit fine. The PCV and air cleaner grommets switched sides and worked fine. Hood clearance is fine and all hoses reconnected perfectly. It all looks factory. If it stops raining here road test is next. The L78 parts are shelf art for now.
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I finally got the tripower installed on my L78 last night. Since I had already run it on the test stand motor it went fine. I did the old blue tape on the valve covers for distributer timing and bolted everything on and it fired up and ran great with only an idle adjustment. The L78 throttle linkage is a little to long and the coil bracket would only take one bolt but everything else fit fine. The PCV and air cleaner grommets switched sides and worked fine. Hood clearance is fine and all hoses reconnected perfectly. It all looks factory. If it stops raining here road test is next. The L78 parts are shelf art for now.
Congrats Kelley! That's not a set up you see every day on a 69 SS. I like it. Don't forget to take some pics for us pic addicts. Good luck with the weather and road test.
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take some pics
Ditto!!
Would love to see it!!
jess
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Hawk if you send me your contact to Kelley@ryankingelectric.com I have some pics but I can,t get them to post. Since photobucket went out I have not gotten a resizer to work yet. I also did a short video of the startup but it takes a little while to download.
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Somewhat related. Attached is a pic of an L71 from a very original 67 Corvette.
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Hawk if you send me your contact to Kelley@ryankingelectric.com I have some pics but I can,t get them to post. Since photobucket went out I have not gotten a resizer to work yet. I also did a short video of the startup but it takes a little while to download.
Done!
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Here are a few of Kelley's pics. More to come later. What a nice set-up Kelley! Cool factor is off the charts.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4789/39813096835_178e6a0943_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23E9wC4)IMG_2444 (https://flic.kr/p/23E9wC4) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4784/40665906172_fdd683c024_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24Xvp8j)IMG_2445 (https://flic.kr/p/24Xvp8j) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4788/38898363990_81734d87f7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22gjhq7)IMG_2447 (https://flic.kr/p/22gjhq7) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
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More pics from Kelley. What a nice clean install!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4797/26895163398_c84561aa99_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GYCK4L)IMG_2455 (https://flic.kr/p/GYCK4L) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4795/39870639915_43b03ba84e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23Kesb8)IMG_2456 (https://flic.kr/p/23Kesb8) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4784/40723500682_c5e5c5c18b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/253AzY7)IMG_2457 (https://flic.kr/p/253AzY7) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4772/26895163808_40662b364d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GYCKbQ)IMG_2458 (https://flic.kr/p/GYCKbQ) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4801/40723501052_a10cdce9db_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/253AA5u)IMG_2459 (https://flic.kr/p/253AA5u) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4799/26895162768_e83580b8f7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GYCJSU)IMG_2462 (https://flic.kr/p/GYCJSU) by Dave H (https://www.flickr.com/photos/146684464@N06/), on Flickr
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*Looks* are Super; neat update.. :)
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This thread kind of started with hood clearance. It does fit, the green pole is to give you an idea of how much. This is a 68,69 style unit. The 67 is 1.5 inches taller, but since they bring a premium price if you had one a trade would be really easy. Since Noah is building an Ark hear is NC I have not yet road tested it yet but it runs really well in the shop. A friend is checking his parts for a shorter throttle rod. The L78 is a little long and I can,t get wide open throttle with it. It kind of surprised me that it fit with really no modifications.
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very nice install, looks like it was checked off on the option list
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Well it stopped raining here so Saturday it snowed. But Sunday I did get the Camaro out to drive with the new tripower. It runs perfect until I put the 400 turbo in gear, then it does not like to idle. I suspect a vac leak but that setup has so many options. Think I will try the propane tank method. However it did drive and run excellent once off idle. The secondarys sound really good and actually pulled in rather quick I thought for vac units. I could not tell much on power since traction loss was pretty much immediate. The power brakes which really did not have enough vacuum before are worse. Driveable, but a hard pedal. I also think the hood insulation is touching the air cleaner, some double side tape on the air cleaner should show some fibers if so.
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The tri-power and dual carb setups, even back to the late 50s and early 60s were never street friendly.
Generally if more cfm is needed, it’s just best to go to a larger 4 barrel.
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True, but a four barrel doesn't look as cool.
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True, but a four barrel doesn't look as cool.
X2
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I will take speed over looks ANY day. :)
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I guess it would depend on how much of a down side there was that came with the better looks.
The 69 Z/28 cross ram is a very cool looking set up. But I have read the reviews from back in the day, and seen guys try to make the most of the system today. For me (even if cost wasn't an issue) I would never run it on a street car. There is a performance boost from it, but would be very under utilized, and run crappy the rest of the time. No thanks.
On the other hand I have heard positive stories about tri-power vettes that were dialed in and ran great. It may take tinkering with them more often to get the most out of it, but it sounds like a fun set up. I don't know the performance numbers of a tri-power vs 4 barrel though to compare.
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It is kind of cool
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The performance is hard to gage because of traction with the 235 tires. Throttle response is crisp, the secondarys kick in well and sound good, it starts and runs well except idle in gear which I feel is a vacuum leak problem that I can cure. Once that is sorted out I will put a few miles on it.
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I guess it would depend on how much of a down side there was that came with the better looks.
The 69 Z/28 cross ram is a very cool looking set up. But I have read the reviews from back in the day, and seen guys try to make the most of the system today. For me (even if cost wasn't an issue) I would never run it on a street car. There is a performance boost from it, but would be very under utilized, and run crappy the rest of the time. No thanks.
On the other hand I have heard positive stories about tri-power vettes that were dialed in and ran great. It may take tinkering with them more often to get the most out of it, but it sounds like a fun set up. I don't know the performance numbers of a tri-power vs 4 barrel though to compare.
Small blocks that have to wind to the moon versus big block 427s. I'd say Kelley is going to be more than good to go on both the cool factor as well as power.
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I would tend to agree.
I think he will sort it out and be happy with the results.
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It is cool. No doubt.
But just about every multiple carb system I have had to deal with was really a PITA most of the time. Except one 2 x 4 setup on a 460 Ford in a jet boat. That thing was plain old nasty.
Dyno results on a cross ram on a 302 Jerry tested didn’t show much improvement over a well tuned single Holley 4 barrel.
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Dyno results on a cross ram on a 302 Jerry tested didn’t show much improvement over a well tuned single Holley 4 barrel.
I wouldn't put one on my car is an NOS one was given to me... I turned down purchase of a NOS complete system for $1000 many years ago for that reason (even though they were selling for more than that)...
If a single carb 302 will run to 10,000 RPM, then what rpm would you need to be running to need MORE fuel??? ;)
PS. I do think if one wanted to run multiple carbs, then a tripower (3 two's) arrangement is the best one; they've been made to run very well on many different cars...
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The tri-power and dual carb setups, even back to the late 50s and early 60s were never street friendly.
Generally if more cfm is needed, it’s just best to go to a larger 4 barrel.
For good street use of multi-carb setups the big keys are intake runner design and how the throttle linkage is setup. You need progressive linkage on them. Other than my 68 Camaro, every other classic car in both my grandfather and I's garages have multi-carb set ups ranging from dual quads to 6x2's. A good well set up tri power will run just as hard as a four barrel. Dual quads look great and work well, just right under a 4 barrel in performance. The 6x2s are just for looks mainly, they are on the show car, but they run really well.
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Finally got the Green Machine out to a cruise in. Turned a lot of heads, even the guy who had one in the past who was telling me how to adjust it. After 5 minutes he said ( yeah those 2 four barrels were a pain). Another guy just looked at me and smiled. Found my vac leaks, one at the brake booster hose and the other at the front 2 barrel. The throttle plate gaskets were kind if thin (the old ones were thicker) and the front throttle return linkage was touching the intake. Lifted the whole set to keep from loosening all the fuel lines and slid another set of gaskets in and magic it worked. Need to fabricate a good throttle linkage and choke rod and the job is done.
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Well done Kelley. Way to stick it out. Both you and our friend from Sweden making a Zl-1 tribute have much to be proud of this summer.