CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: cbgolz on June 01, 2017, 11:16:19 PM

Title: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: cbgolz on June 01, 2017, 11:16:19 PM
I have a question.  What color was the back side of an original 1969 Z28 spare wheel?  I have seen several pictures of the trunk compartments of Z28's and the backs of some spares are painted black, some gray, etc.  My jack base, hook, and ratchet are all dove gray.  Was the spare (if gray) the same color as the jack components?  Darker, lighter?  What is the correct color of the back side of the spare wheel from the factory?  Thanks in advance for your help.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: ZLP955 on June 02, 2017, 12:50:15 AM
Semi-gloss black with some argent silver overspray through the cooling slots. JohnZ posted a great picture of his former car's original spare showing this detail.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: ZLP955 on June 02, 2017, 12:54:25 AM
See JohnZ's pictures in reply #1 of this thread: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7300
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: william on June 02, 2017, 01:33:01 AM
http://www.camaros.org/pdf/tech_wheelpaint.pdf

Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: cbgolz on June 06, 2017, 04:56:50 AM
Thank you all very much for the replies.  I had done my spare wheel in the correct manner.  Argent silver with some light overspray through the slots onto a semi gloss black backside.  I started to second guess myself when a saw a number of pictures of trunk compartments with a gray backside of the spare wheel.  Thanks, again for your help.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: lynnbilodeau on July 29, 2017, 01:28:31 PM
Something like this.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: william on July 29, 2017, 05:40:30 PM
Service replacement wheels were painted gray.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: GreenNV on October 13, 2017, 12:31:39 AM
FWIW,

Here's a Day 1 takeoff spare that was reportedly removed from the trunk of a 69 Z/28 that got a mag wheel change when brand new. The originals went home with the owner and were secured away in the basement until I got this wheel earlier this year. It's a factory spare dated K-1-9-4-18 and in mint untouched original condition. Obviously it was grey and not painted like the other wheels off the car?

(https://preview.ibb.co/jAGcJw/IMG_7303.jpg)

(https://preview.ibb.co/kzsHJw/IMG_7304.jpg)



Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: firstgenaddict on October 13, 2017, 06:52:14 PM
There is a spec for Grey primed wheels... typically they would be service wheels however there is little doubt Kelsey Hayes would substitute them for bare wheels if necessary. My 69 Z 10D had 3 of the original wheels which were all 9 20 AD's with grey backs.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: KurtS on October 14, 2017, 06:26:06 PM
That is not how they were shipped with the car. The five wheels were mounted at the same time and all were painted the same.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: GreenNV on October 17, 2017, 12:43:48 AM
So you are saying this was an over the counter wheel Kurt? Did they utilize the same dates as found on the cars for service wheels or did they use another series of dates?
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: paceme on October 17, 2017, 12:39:35 PM
Yes that is a service replacement/over the counter wheel.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: william on October 17, 2017, 04:03:29 PM
Not nagging here but no one has seen every one of the 20,302 '69 Z/28s built. Over at the CRG we use the phrase "normative practice" to cover standard operating practices on the assembly line. That means production was configured to process uncoated Z/28 wheels. They were furnished raw, cleaned, dipped in black primer. The face of the wheel was painted argent. Did this process apply 100% of the time? No one knows but I doubt it.

I managed service replacement parts in automotive supply chain and if production needed my parts to keep the line going, they took them. In this case they ship from the same supplier. By November 1968 Chevy had more Z/28 orders than they could build and stopped taking orders. That tells me the plants were having a hard time keeping up. If the plants needed service wheels to maintain delivery schedules, it would happen.

Now that otherwise original cars are turning up with gray wheels, it looks like service wheels may have gotten into production on rare occasion. I have seen several grey AD and YH wheels in my days and assumed they were service parts. Maybe not. Wouldn't be the first time an original car was found to have 'incorrect' parts.


Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: paceme on October 18, 2017, 01:17:54 PM
FWIW,

Here's a Day 1 takeoff spare that was reportedly removed from the trunk of a 69 Z/28 that got a mag wheel change when brand new. The originals went home with the owner and were secured away in the basement until I got this wheel earlier this year. It's a factory spare dated K-1-9-4-18 and in mint untouched original condition. Obviously it was grey and not painted like the other wheels off the car?

(https://preview.ibb.co/jAGcJw/IMG_7303.jpg)

(https://preview.ibb.co/kzsHJw/IMG_7304.jpg)





A couple of observations looking at the grey painted spare pictured. I can't see how a tire was ever mounted on it (no bead mark)and there are no jack base plate marks, chip paint or abrasions when it was secured in the trunk. Also no balance/ run-out bead/marking on the rim. Certainly we've learned anything is possible....
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: 69Z28-RS on October 18, 2017, 01:49:15 PM
William makes a good point about 'never saying 'never''...  but one could say that about anything we discuss on here...

For my 2 cents worth, I'd have to agree with Steve (PaceMe)... :)
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: william on October 18, 2017, 02:44:48 PM
The balance bb is at approximately 6:00.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: paceme on October 18, 2017, 04:08:20 PM
Now I see the bb, thanks. Does this rim look like it ever had a tire mounted on it or secured in a trunk?
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: Stingr69 on October 18, 2017, 04:22:50 PM
Keep in mind, just because it "could have" happened does not mean it ever did. Even if it really did happen, the normative practice standard is hard to get over considering that you may never be able to document it.  It would be "technically incorrect" and the wheel would need to be painted per normative practice in order to be "correct".
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: BULLITT65 on October 18, 2017, 05:16:49 PM
I wonder how any Camaros have become less original over the years to conform to the "normative practice", or worse have been labeled as non-numbers matching because not enough cars have been observed , yet*  :-\

In the "restore it first" world we live in, I think there are many cars that get restored/over restored, (perhaps with good intentions), but when more information has come forward, some of those original cues and quirks have been "restored" right out of the hobby, all in the name of correctness, and because a guy doesn't want to be looked down on because his car appears different than what most people/judges see.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: KurtS on October 18, 2017, 06:44:23 PM
Doesn't change - the wheels were done as a set. One set of YH, one set of FC, then XT, etc. All get painted matching and get matching tires.
You're suggesting that every 5th wheel would have to come from a different pile of parts (only on YH wheels) and they wouldn't paint that wheel? If they all came from the same pile, then why paint different? The spare was designed to rotate into usage. No way would they make it so the customer couldn't rotate his tires.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: JKZ27 on October 19, 2017, 09:12:57 PM
Any possibility of dealers replacing stolen wheels with service replacements on new cars? Or service departments "borrowing" a wheel and replacing with a service wheel?
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: william on October 19, 2017, 09:38:18 PM
Any possibility of dealers replacing stolen wheels with service replacements on new cars? Or service departments "borrowing" a wheel and replacing with a service wheel?

Absolutely. Hi-Perf cars were regular targets for thieves back in the day. There was an interview in one of the mags with a guy that worked at Gibb Chev; the ZL1s had carbs stolen right on the lot. A dealer in Detroit had 5 ZL1 Camaros stolen one evening.

Dealers regularly swapped wheels around. Someone posted paperwork from their Z/28 sometime back. Very likely they swapped wheels between two cars in stock.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: Spooky on October 21, 2017, 06:19:06 PM
Could the car been equipped with a doughnut tire and asked the dealership to install a full spare?

Scott
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: KurtS on October 21, 2017, 06:20:23 PM
Not an option with a Z - N65 was n/a.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: GreenNV on November 01, 2017, 03:35:22 PM
As noted the wheel does have the BB, and yes Steve, it did appear to have tire bead marks from a tire being mounted at one point? I say did...as I have now restored the wheel to "normative practice" along with 4 other wheels. I get what your saying Kurt, but as William stated, if parts were needed from stores, they could have been taken due to a shortage and ended up on, or in a car. Having adopted the CRG normative practice and sometimes over restoring, this wheel will no longer be a possible straggler as it is now black and silver.

One point to note, all of my other 4 wheels before being restored were spun and trued up. When it came to balancing the new bias ply tires, all required significant weight...except for the one that was the claimed original spare. It spun perfect on the road force balancer and was noticeably better than the other 4 which had all been recently trued? Go figure. :)

Here's how they turned out once restored. (i did leave the factory paint gobs between the outer hoop and center so I could tell which one was the suspected spare)

(https://thumb.ibb.co/jUm9O6/IMG_7378.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jUm9O6)

(https://thumb.ibb.co/eXh5wR/IMG_7376.jpg) (https://ibb.co/eXh5wR)

Wheels were then fit with a non factory tire of my choice and placed on the car to get it as a roller for moving around. Today they will be replaced with a set of Day II Cragar's and will go into storage along with a full set of NOS derby caps and 4 clip trim rings. I'm sure they'll be seen again someday?

(https://preview.ibb.co/d8OrXb/IMG_7392.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fgyQsb)

Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: 68camaroz28 on November 02, 2017, 12:46:51 PM
Any possibility of dealers replacing stolen wheels with service replacements on new cars? Or service departments "borrowing" a wheel and replacing with a service wheel?

Absolutely. Hi-Perf cars were regular targets for thieves back in the day. There was an interview in one of the mags with a guy that worked at Gibb Chev; the ZL1s had carbs stolen right on the lot. A dealer in Detroit had 5 ZL1 Camaros stolen one evening.

Dealers regularly swapped wheels around. Someone posted paperwork from their Z/28 sometime back. Very likely they swapped wheels between two cars in stock.
Your comment Bill brought back memories from our Railroad Yard back in the day as cars came in on railroad cars and lots of stuff was stolen especially batteries.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: Mike S on November 02, 2017, 02:56:16 PM
 On another note.....I am curious if the green '69 pictured is stored long term like that on jacks. Isn't that bad for the rear spring front bushings and front upper and lower control arm bushings that otherwise had their bolts tightened with the weight of the car?

Mike
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: 69Z28-RS on November 03, 2017, 02:56:33 AM
Any possibility of dealers replacing stolen wheels with service replacements on new cars? Or service departments "borrowing" a wheel and replacing with a service wheel?

Absolutely. Hi-Perf cars were regular targets for thieves back in the day. There was an interview in one of the mags with a guy that worked at Gibb Chev; the ZL1s had carbs stolen right on the lot. A dealer in Detroit had 5 ZL1 Camaros stolen one evening.

Dealers regularly swapped wheels around. Someone posted paperwork from their Z/28 sometime back. Very likely they swapped wheels between two cars in stock.
Your comment Bill brought back memories from our Railroad Yard back in the day as cars came in on railroad cars and lots of stuff was stolen especially batteries.

When I was young (almost 50 yrs ago?).. :)    I heard stories about thieves hopping the trains carrying new cars, and dropping out Muncies.. they would then push them off the train when the train slowed and afterwards go back and pick up the transmissions...  I wonder how many Camaros ended up with the WRONG transmissions at initial sale time due to crap like this??
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: GreenNV on November 05, 2017, 01:50:23 PM
On another note.....I am curious if the green '69 pictured is stored long term like that on jacks. Isn't that bad for the rear spring front bushings and front upper and lower control arm bushings that otherwise had their bolts tightened with the weight of the car?

Mike

Car is never stored on jacks. It was only up because I was switching wheels around and test fitting different wheel combo's. Car now has it's Day II wheels on it and is back on the ground. When I store things long term, I always put the tires onto contoured car dollies or foam pads to keep from flat spotting the tires.

(https://preview.ibb.co/epOMnb/IMG_7516.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j6kqfw)

Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: bcmiller on November 05, 2017, 05:52:01 PM
Any possibility of dealers replacing stolen wheels with service replacements on new cars? Or service departments "borrowing" a wheel and replacing with a service wheel?

Absolutely. Hi-Perf cars were regular targets for thieves back in the day. There was an interview in one of the mags with a guy that worked at Gibb Chev; the ZL1s had carbs stolen right on the lot. A dealer in Detroit had 5 ZL1 Camaros stolen one evening.

Dealers regularly swapped wheels around. Someone posted paperwork from their Z/28 sometime back. Very likely they swapped wheels between two cars in stock.
Your comment Bill brought back memories from our Railroad Yard back in the day as cars came in on railroad cars and lots of stuff was stolen especially batteries.

When I was young (almost 50 yrs ago?).. :)    I heard stories about thieves hopping the trains carrying new cars, and dropping out Muncies.. they would then push them off the train when the train slowed and afterwards go back and pick up the transmissions...  I wonder how many Camaros ended up with the WRONG transmissions at initial sale time due to crap like this??

Possible. I have never heard of that. Might cause damage dropping a trans off a train.

Carbs, distributors, alternators, wheels would have probably be more likely targets.   
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: BULLITT65 on November 05, 2017, 08:18:12 PM
With American racing wheels, and Cragar, I am surprised that steel wheels would have been a sought after item back then
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: KurtS on November 06, 2017, 02:18:14 AM
I get what your saying Kurt, but as William stated, if parts were needed from stores, they could have been taken due to a shortage and ended up on, or in a car.
The system was designed to mount and deliver a set of 5. All 5 wheels would have undergone the same processing, no matter how they arrived at the plant. All five would be from the same source, either service or OEM supplier because they would be pulling from the same bin.
In all these years, I've never seen a documented service part installed at the factory. I've seen drivetrain parts that were reworked and then factory installed, but even most of those were reworked and sent out as service parts.
Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: william on November 06, 2017, 03:55:08 AM
The wheels in question would have never been in a GMPD warehouse. The supply chain was setup with a single-source shipping to multiple locations. A run of wheels configured for service could have easily been diverted to an assembly plant.

Title: Re: 1969 Z28 spare wheel
Post by: Stingr69 on November 08, 2017, 02:21:45 PM
I get what your saying Kurt, but as William stated, if parts were needed from stores, they could have been taken due to a shortage and ended up on, or in a car.
The system was designed to mount and deliver a set of 5. All 5 wheels would have undergone the same processing, no matter how they arrived at the plant. All five would be from the same source, either service or OEM supplier because they would be pulling from the same bin.
In all these years, I've never seen a documented service part installed at the factory. I've seen drivetrain parts that were reworked and then factory installed, but even most of those were reworked and sent out as service parts.

I own a 1980 Corvette that possibly had a factory rework on the engine before it left the plant.  It has ".009" undersized crank bearings.  I have never seen that size available anywhere in the aftermarket. Last 2 weeks of the run for the year and last year for that L-82.  Probably did not have any spare engines to drop in so they had to rework it.  Could have been at the engine assembly but that seems unlikely to me.  Very difficult to document either way but I found it fascinating.  Has a (technically incorrect) GM air cleaner lid from a 1981 too.  Otherwise unmolested car.