CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: jdv69z on February 21, 2017, 04:41:34 PM
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So I know finding the body broadcast sheet in a 69 Norwood built Camaro is very rare. How often do chassis broadcast sheets turn up? It seems like these would never have been in the car since they traveled with the chassis assembly. Only one I have seen a copy of is ZL-1 #2. Does the CRG group have many of these?
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Quoting from John Z's excellent article about 1st Gen Camaro assembly:
By the time the car got to the Final Line there were Broadcast Copies all over it, under it, and inside it, as all the various feeder lines used them too. Each installation point for conveyor-delivered components had a trash barrel to pitch the copy that came taped to the subassembly, and there were several at the end of the Final Line.
I have been involved with 1st Gens going on 42 years. Maybe I have seen a couple dozen Norwood Broadcast Copies in that time; Kurt has more experience with them. I have a real one [not a copy] that was in the folder with other paperwork from the cars' delivery. Sometimes they were retained during new car prep, most often discarded. They were generated by Chevrolet when the assembled body was in queue for release to final assembly. As received, about 90% of the interior was installed by Fisher Body; no need to remove trim panels or look inside the seats.
http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml
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I have seen about a dozen or so 69 norwood cars on ebay over the years with the broadcast sheet. I have often wondered where these were found on the car. I have heard inside door panels, under the rear seat, under the carpet, and in the headliner. Maybe it could have been in all those areas, if it was just floating around at that point.
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Wouldn't those typically be the body broadcast sheet, as opposed to the chassis sheet? I can see assembly lines workers using the body broadcast sheets inside the car, but wouldn't the chassis broadcast sheets be with the chassis assembly prior to the body/chassis marriage? And if left at all, be located somewhere on the chassis outside the car?
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I have heard inside door panels, under the rear seat, under the carpet, and in the headliner. Maybe it could have been in all those areas, if it was just floating around at that point.
Mostly BS. Broadcast Copies did not exist when Fisher Body was installing the interior. Fisher did not install the front carpeting so the possibility exists one could have been left there. Have yet to hear of one though.
Fisher had its own docs and although very rare, they have turned up inside headliners and under carpeting.
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Wouldn't those typically be the body broadcast sheet, as opposed to the chassis sheet? I can see assembly lines workers using the body broadcast sheets inside the car, but wouldn't the chassis broadcast sheets be with the chassis assembly prior to the body/chassis marriage? And if left at all, be located somewhere on the chassis outside the car?
From John Zs article:
The "Broadcast Copy" (often called the "build sheet" today) included the sequence number, VIN, identification number, dealer code, order number, and selection codes for virtually every part that went on that car. There were two types of Broadcast Copies: the Body Broadcast Copy (BBC) was used on the Trim Line and Final Line, and the Chassis Broadcast Copy (CBC) was used on the Engine Dress, Chassis, and post-marriage overhead Chassis Line. There was some level of duplication on both Broadcast Copies, which were standard Chevrolet forms used in most Chevrolet plants.
The workers at Norwood were very good at removing and discarding Broadcast Copies.
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Ok so you obviously have seen a lot more docs found. Where does the broadcast copy tend to be located on a norwood car if at all?
Where are some of popular spots to locate any docs fisher/chevrolet on a car you suspect has never been torn apart?
thanks
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Wrong impression. It is very rare to find production documentation in a Norwood car. Back in the '80s I probably dismantled a few dozen and never found anything. The Gibb ZL1 BCs exist because they were left inside the car and he saved them. Apparently that was common but most dealers discarded them during prep.
I had a 1970 Chevelle fairly new; there were BCs in the seat springs and stuck inside the front fenders. I suspect that is where these rumors come from but they do not apply to Norwood Camaros.
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Thanks Bill for some excellent information.
I'd like to share what we found in our Nova where many build sheets were commonly found. Our son's L34 Nova was restored and what was found was actually two build sheets. We believe by the last digit of the build it might have been two cars prior and had very few options but there we had it, our Nova build sheet along with another cars. They were tucked in the bottom of the back seat and the top one is son's car and the bottom car is a red with black std. bench. Note the sequence # 226 vs ??4, hence the thinking it might have been two cars before.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/69Nova%20SS396/filename-1%203_zps4iqrjqdu.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/69Nova%20SS396/filename-1%203_zps4iqrjqdu.jpg.html)
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I also owned a '70 LS5 Chevelle up until 2011 - during my attempt to sell it on eBay, some kind enthusiast let me know that Atlanta built Chevelles like mine had the broadcast copy glued to the back of the door panel (the only place I had not looked for it). To my very great relief, the copy was right there, absolutely perfect condition, glued very firmly to the door panel, with every last detail including the shipping info, dealer code, dealer and LS5 documentation that I needed to prove out the car: the dream of all of our collective Norwood production fellow Camaro owners. Although I have the dealer invoices on two of my Camaros (luckily the '68 Z is one of those two), I wish all of them had the BC's as well.
Keep on looking -
Steve
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I found one under the back seat of a 1968 LOS Firebird that I had. Not that uncommon for LOS, I believe. I also found one in my Norwood built 1979 Z28 but I guess a lot changes in a plant in 10 years.
I still see them in new Buicks and GMCs taped to the seat or in the trunk and they go in the trash.
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I bought an '85 Z new, had one tucked up under the driver's seat springs. Still have it, but it's very different from the early ones. At least it lent some credence to the "under the seat" theories -
Steve
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It is very rare to find production documentation in a Norwood car. The Gibb ZL1 BCs exist because they were left inside the car and he saved them. Apparently that was common but most dealers discarded them during prep.
Agreed. Very low chance that docs are in the car waiting to be found (except 69 LOS cars).
Dealers either discarded the copies in the car or put them in the dealership's new car file.
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In 1972 I bought a brand new Buick Skylark coupe. While on the lift for it's first oil change, I walked around the car checking out the chassis and found the broadcast sheet tucked in a frame slot just in front on the rear bumper. Of course, nobody cared back then.
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Heard that the Corvette plant puts a build sheet in a bag and tucks it into the frame somewhere.
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I have parted out many 67-69 Camaro's never seen build sheets in any of the cars. But have a 68 plain Camaro that my better half bought brand new that the dealer gave her both build sheets plus shipper paperwork which is pretty cool. I did have 80 z28 that I found the build sheet under the left rear seat. I also had a friend that had a 71 Camaro that found his sheet under rear seat also.
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so how much could have changed from 68,& 69 to 71 . I would think while finding the paperwork may be rare, that if it does exist, under the back seat may be a good spot to look.
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under the back seat may be a good spot to look.
Did you not see what William posted about Fisher and the interior???
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A different car but I had a 1983 Chevy malibu wagon and under the back seat I had 2 sheets, one for the wagon and another for a brown v6 El Camino, I assumed it was for the car before my wagon and they just threw it in my wagon on the assembly line
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under the back seat may be a good spot to look.
Did you not see what William posted about Fisher and the interior???
Sure, but you have to acknowledge the ones that have been found, right????
So the procedure was to toss them. Was this followed 100% of the time, no.
I guess like other some other procedures that were laid out by Chevrolet, this was not followed 100% of time by the employees , so broadcast copies have been found by different owners, or been given to them by the dealer ( which would mean they would have been located outside the garbage can as well). :)
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No, I do not acknowledge that any broadcast sheets have been found in the rear seats of a 67-9 Camaro.
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Um, that wasn't the question....
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Sure, but you have to acknowledge the ones that have been found, right????
I have no idea what finding a build sheet in any of the cars mentioned has to do with finding one in a 67-69 Camaro built at the Norwood, OH assembly plant.
As noted several times, the seating and upholstery panels were installed by Fisher Body. Fisher Body had no use for them, never saw them because they didn't exist when the body was being assembled. That's why they are not behind door panels or under the rear seat.
Ever consider an evening class in reading comprehension?
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So there was no way they could make out of the factory into anyones hands, yet they exist.
When I say under the rear seat, does that mean they couldn't have been on the floor where the carpet stops? (like they were discarded on the floor, not tucked into the rear seat)
Sorry, I thought english was your first language.
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Austin, Fisher body never had broadcast sheets.. That was a Chevrolet side thing only. By the time the sheets were put in or on the car the interior carpet and rear seat were installed.. There MIGHT be a slim chance of finding a UOIT (Uniform Option Identification Tag), but that isnt the same as a "buildsheet". Usually the likely reason in an owner receiving buildsheet is either it was thrown inside the car and during dealer prep of the new car it was added it to their new cars folder (like rare396bronze mentioned) or there was one that happened to have been found under the hood insulation on a deluxe interior car IIRC but that is most likely a miss by the assembly line worker before the installation of said insulation and probably a one and a million occurrence.
Read the link William posted. It explains all of that.
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Guess I started all this. :o Kurt, just because I'm curious, approx how many Norwood built 67-69 Camaro broadcast copies have you seen during your years of Camaro research?
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So there was no way they could make out of the factory into anyones hands, yet they exist.
This was in my first post and explained that since I have one, I'm well aware BCs made it out of the factory. How you gleaned that out of this thread I have no idea.
I have a real one [not a copy] that was in the folder with other paperwork from the cars' delivery. Sometimes they were retained during new car prep, most often discarded. They were generated by Chevrolet when the assembled body was in queue for release to final assembly.
Apparently that wasn't clear enough for you so I posted it again.
The Gibb ZL1 BCs exist because they were left inside the car and he saved them. Apparently that was common but most dealers discarded them during prep.
Still not getting it, Kurt posted the same thing for a third time:
Dealers either discarded the copies in the car or put them in the dealership's new car file.
A good rule is that when you're in a hole, stop digging.
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A good rule is that when you're in a hole, stop digging.
Good one William :>) I think you and Kurt have went above and beyond trying to explain this.
When asked about these first gen Norwood body broadcast sheets by local guys, I tell them don't even bother looking !
Mike
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Scroll down through this thread a Team Camaro's forum for some more info:
http://www.camaros.net/forums/15-tag-team/162039-norwood-build-sheet.html
Paul
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For what it is worth I found what the mice left of my 77 Trans Am firebirds under the rear seat. Mostly confetti but enough to know what it was. The little rascals carcass was there also.
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Thanks, I get the picture. Or should I say the virtual non-existence there of? :D
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I know the thread focused on NOR cars, but do we have any idea how often the Chassis Broadcast Copy has been found on first gen LA/VAN Nuys built Camaros?
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Bottom line, finding a CBC or BBC from a First Generation Camaro from the Norwood plant is rare.
I helped part out quite a few cars from the mid 70s to early 90s. Some were wrecked fairly early in their life. I never found any.
Different story on Chevelles and full size cars. But its like comparing apples and oranges.
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Guess I started all this. :o Kurt, just because I'm curious, approx how many Norwood built 67-69 Camaro broadcast copies have you seen during your years of Camaro research?
Excluding 69 LOS chassis sheets (commonly found on the gas tank) - a little over 150. Body sheets are much more common than chassis sheets.
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I went through our NOR db and unofficially came up with 133 entries showing a BC. 112 were BBC only; 5 were CBC only, 16 had both. Norwood produced 551,354 1st gens so that's not very many.
My guess, about 90% of those exist because the dealer retained it. A friends' family had a Chevy dealership 1953-1985 and he stated it was common to find production paperwork in cars at delivery. I have several folders from the few '60s Corvettes they sold and there are some unusual docs in them.
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There's another possible aspect to the "Broadcast Copy under the rear seat story" , but not on first-gen NOR cars. Norwood was an old Fisher/Chevrolet plant, and followed the same overall sequence as all the other Fisher/Chevrolet plants, where Fisher supplied a painted and trimmed firewall-back body shell to Chevrolet and Chevrolet made a car out of it.
GMAD plants, however, weren't constrained by Fisher traditions, and used the "soft trim after Final" sequence, where all of the interior soft trim parts were installed AFTER roll-test and water-test as a driveable car (Corvette also followed that sequence); easier to spot water leaks and no water damage to costly interior parts. At some point after GMAD absorbed Norwood (don't recall when offhand), Norwood changed to the GMAD sequence, and that system would have made it possible to find a Broadcast Sheet under the rear seat.
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I agree on 67-69 Norwood cars good luck trying finding a build sheet. But 70 up you have better shot. A good friend told me were to find my 80 z-28 build sheet also had a 80z found his sheet in under his rear seat. To top that off he also had 70-73 z28's. Out off the 4 cars he found 3 cars with build sheet's under the rear seats. The 70z28 had a m22 transmission code on the build sheet. The 72 z28 had two sheets for two different cars one was for the next vin after his. I sold my 80z28 years ago and let the next owner have it. But kept a copy for me. So I say out off 6 cars finding 5 cars with build sheet that is pretty good odds.
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Somewhere north of 83.3% - not bad at all -
Steve
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I dropped the fuel tank on my 05c Norwood 68 rs last summer to repair pin holes and there was a piece of paper attached to the upper side under one of those tar strips. It was degraded so bad I threw it away. Couldn't make out anything. Now I'm thinking I should have hung onto it. Anyway some of the paper is still attached to the tank, and it's still leaking so next time I drop tank I'll post some pics.
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If you can't find a chassis broadcast sheet in your car, you can always buy one on eBay...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-CAMARO-CHASSIS-BROADCAST-BUILD-SHEET-A-PREMIUM-SHOW-QUALITY-Z28-RS-SS-PACE/142265900202?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41393%26meid%3Db68e93a498b64429a9f19b19e5bd9bb4%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D291818151557
:(
Paul
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I knew I would find one somewhere.... :P
Everyone produces everything these days...
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If you can't find a chassis broadcast sheet in your car, you can always buy one on eBay...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-CAMARO-CHASSIS-BROADCAST-BUILD-SHEET-A-PREMIUM-SHOW-QUALITY-Z28-RS-SS-PACE/142265900202?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41393%26meid%3Db68e93a498b64429a9f19b19e5bd9bb4%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D291818151557
:(
Paul
I'd sooner hide the $385 under the back seat only to be excited when I find it later.
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If you can't find a chassis broadcast sheet in your car, you can always buy one on eBay...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-CAMARO-CHASSIS-BROADCAST-BUILD-SHEET-A-PREMIUM-SHOW-QUALITY-Z28-RS-SS-PACE/142265900202?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41393%26meid%3Db68e93a498b64429a9f19b19e5bd9bb4%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D2%26sd%3D291818151557
:(
Paul
I'd sooner hide the $385 under the back seat only to be excited when I find it later.
LOL! :)
Paul
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that's kinda like what I decided (after awhile) about the logic of 'drag racing'... :) ...
'sorta like getting drunk... burying all your $$$... then not remembering where after you sobered up~! "
:)
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Well it's like everything else for these cars, some items are worth more to some people. I am not interested in purchasing a build sheet or window stickers , but I am sure they sell enough of both to other people. Enough so, that multiple guys produce the window stickers. I am sure I have over paid on other items for my car, I just think they were more functional type parts.
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I agree I don't want any fake build sheet. I have my dealer invoice, mso & shipping report. Also my post #36 it should read 67-69 if somebody can change it for me. Thanks.