CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: Edgemontvillage on October 04, 2016, 03:19:14 PM
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In the process of engine disassembly I removed the original 40669 crimped style fuel pump from my February 1969 dated DZ motor. The fuel pump is dated AI or January 1969 and from the inlet threads it appears the crimp on bowl was originally gold cad plated. I am wondering if any original 40669 pumps were plated using silver cad/zinc? I have seen restored and NOS versions with gold or silver cad plated bowls however was silver cad ever used on original 40669 pumps in 1969?
Original 40669 AC Delco fuel pump (with 2 diaphragm weep holes)
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z396/edgemontvillage/Fuel%20Pump%201_zpszfj0ttdx.jpg)
Date code: AI or January 1969 - note inconsistent use of fonts in the number 6
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z396/edgemontvillage/Fuel%20Pump%202_zps9zy7xdl5.jpg)
Restored original 40669 fuel pumps - gold cad and silver cad crimped on bowls.
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z396/edgemontvillage/Fuel%20Pump%203_zpsv5bep6o4.jpg)
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z396/edgemontvillage/Fuel%20Pump%204_zpsokjgcb4j.jpg)
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Lloyd I have an original 40669 with the same January 1969 date code. I can't recall what the finish is, will dig it out and post some pictures within the next day or two.
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Lloyd I have an original 40669 with the same January 1969 date code. I can't recall what the finish is, will dig it out and post some pictures within the next day or two.
Thanks Tim, please do, I would also be interested in a photo of the stamp (date code), seems AC Delco used a variety of fonts in their stampings, I have seen no consistency even for 669 pumps produced in the same month (multiple production lines? plants?).
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Lloyd I managed to find some older pictures of the pump saved on my laptop, can still retrieve it from storage if you want to see pictures of any other specific details.
This one seems to have used the same font style for both '6's in 40669, but interestingly the 'AI' has a double strike.
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd420/ZLP955/TC%20Forum%20Stuff/IMG_8587_zpssuejkiyy.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd420/ZLP955/TC%20Forum%20Stuff/IMG_8590_zpsw7swal7k.jpg)
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd420/ZLP955/TC%20Forum%20Stuff/IMG_8588_zpsrff1bewo.jpg)
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Thanks Tim, here is another example of a restored 40669 with the same date code and double strike Month (A). Seems the media used during restoration has degraded the stamp. The font used for the "6"s is also the same.
(http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z396/edgemontvillage/Mobile%20Uploads/37f020b4-4b27-43dd-b528-c2e1f6de5459_zpsumtuwi4w.jpg)
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Interesting the different fonts on the 6.....rounded side and straight side
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Interesting the different fonts on the 6.....rounded side and straight side
The manufacturer's marks on the bottom of the casting are also different.
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Lloyd I means to add with the above pictures that to my eye, the crimped base of the pump is gold, rather than silver - wondered if this answers your original question?
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Lloyd I means to add with the above pictures that to my eye, the crimped base of the pump is gold, rather than silver - wondered if this answers your original question?
Yes Tim, it does, I have also solicited information from a couple of experts who confirmed they have only seen gold cad /zinc plated fuel pump bowls on original 1969 Z/28s. Thanks for your help.
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Lloyd - as usual, great investigative work! I checked the AC Fuel pump on my Z and it's a 40669 as well but I don't think it's original to the car - question though, how do you decode the date code?
The code on mine is not that legible but none-the less, I have no idea how to decode it. I did a search here and elsewhere and could not find any reference to decoding the fuel pump. Appreciate any input on how to decode it.
Thanks,
Hans
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Lloyd - as usual, great investigative work! I checked the AC Fuel pump on my Z and it's a 40669 as well but I don't think it's original to the car - question though, how do you decode the date code?
The code on mine is not that legible but none-the less, I have no idea how to decode it. I did a search here and elsewhere and could not find any reference to decoding the fuel pump. Appreciate any input on how to decode it.
Thanks,
Hans
Hans, thanks for the feedback. Based on my research original AC Fuel Pumps have two 1/8" vent/weep holes in the (AC logo'd) casting above the diaphram to vent fuel should the diaphram fail which are not found on service replacement or repro pumps. The date code and "40669" are stamped on the bottom/side profile of the cast base using 1/8" characters. The stampings are not consistent and the fonts used appear to vary somewhat (per the above). There are 2 threads on CRG dealing with decoding 40669 production dates which I found useful, below are the links:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=1170.0
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=12033.0
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Lloyd, sorry for the late reply but was overseas on vacation and followed some things but did not have my lap top and pictures to share. A couple years ago I purchased this fuel pump when Jere Stahl (RIP) was going out of business. I noted it was a correct number 40524 for our 68 Z/28 and wanted it for possible replacement if our re-built one goes bad. It’s dated July67 and wanted to show the yellow zinc bowl and how it would have looked on a car back in the day. Even a good look at what the gasket looked like. I was fortunate to obtain some neat things that he had accumulated and also where Chevrolet Engineering had sent him.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/40524%20Fuel%20Pump%20July67-GG_zpsg8abcvpg.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/40524%20Fuel%20Pump%20July67-GG_zpsg8abcvpg.jpg.html)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/40524FuelPumpGG-July1967_zps661bf9ab.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/40524FuelPumpGG-July1967_zps661bf9ab.jpg.html)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/Notewhitegasket_zps6c0532a5.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/Notewhitegasket_zps6c0532a5.jpg.html)
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So is the correct plating gold cad or yellow zinc, or either?
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So is the correct plating gold cad or yellow zinc, or either?
Not sure Tim but JohnZ has mentioned many times prints called out both gold cad or yellow zinc was acceptable and yellow zinc was cheaper so that in reality was what was used more times than not. I would guess (assume) either is correct and how many people can really distinguish the differences in appearance?
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OK, thanks Chick! I'm not restoring mine, just going to clean it up, but handy to know for the future.
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Lloyd, sorry for the late reply but was overseas on vacation and followed some things but did not have my lap top and pictures to share. A couple years ago I purchased this fuel pump when Jere Stahl (RIP) was going out of business. I noted it was a correct number 40524 for our 68 Z/28 and wanted it for possible replacement if our re-built one goes bad. It’s dated July67 and wanted to show the yellow zinc bowl and how it would have looked on a car back in the day. Even a good look at what the gasket looked like. I was fortunate to obtain some neat things that he had accumulated and also where Chevrolet Engineering had sent him.
Thanks for adding to the thread Chick, you mentioned that you purchased the spare "if our re-built one goes bad", who rebuilt your (original) fuel pump?
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Lloyd, here's what a HBC rebuilt original looks like...
(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Zk4AAOSwqu9VOVht/s-l1600.jpg)
More info here...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-1968-1969-Camaro-Chevelle-Nova-Impala-Fuel-pump-correct-302-327-350-/331537736793?hash=item4d31306459:g:Zk4AAOSwqu9VOVht&vxp=mtr
Paul
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Lloyd, sorry for the late reply but was overseas on vacation and followed some things but did not have my lap top and pictures to share. A couple years ago I purchased this fuel pump when Jere Stahl (RIP) was going out of business. I noted it was a correct number 40524 for our 68 Z/28 and wanted it for possible replacement if our re-built one goes bad. It’s dated July67 and wanted to show the yellow zinc bowl and how it would have looked on a car back in the day. Even a good look at what the gasket looked like. I was fortunate to obtain some neat things that he had accumulated and also where Chevrolet Engineering had sent him.
Thanks for adding to the thread Chick, you mentioned that you purchased the spare "if our re-built one goes bad", who rebuilt your (original) fuel pump?
Lloyd, did not have our original as past owner apparently got rid of it (remember car torn apart 1979) as never had any fuel pump when purchased. Bought a 40524 years ago rebuilt and would have to check whether I got it from Heartbeat or ebay. Memory fails me but I remember reading how JohnZ warned that they were not designed to be re-built and the concerns stuck with me using a re-built unit. Remember Steve S. mentioning he used Goat Hill to do his last one some years back and had recorded this from a post here on CRG.
Do not know anything about his work! "My name is Fred Ballard and I DO restore these crimp together type of fuel pumps. I am NOT in any way now or ever have been related to Goat Hill Classics. The restoration is $220 plus $20 return shipping in the lower 48 states. This service needs to be prepaid and a personal or company check is the preferred method of payment. The pumps are disassembled, cleaned, replated and rebuilt with diaphragms and valves compatible with current ethanol laced fuels. If you are planning to send yours in, please email me and enclose contact and shipping information with the pump. The service takes about one month from the time that I begin the disassembly process. If you Google "crimped fuel pump rebuild" my name is the only one that comes up. My specialty has been Ford pumps but I have done a fair number of GM and Chrysler pumps as well."
"Fred Ballard 28916 Flowerpark Drive Canyon Country, Ca. 91387-1801 661-251-2362 fredsclassics@hotmail.com"
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I have one from Goat Hill classics that I assumed is rebuilt, and it works fine. I bought a rebuilt one from heartbeat City, and when it got here it was a reproduction. I called and they said we have 6 in stock let us check and see what other date codes we have. They were all the same
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I reached out to Paul Baker recently at Goat Hill and previously to Fred Ballard. Fred is active in the Mustang and Mopar communities however I haven't seen any postings here or on TC regarding work done on GM / AC crimped style fuel pumps - anyone?. I have read considerable feedback and testimonial concerning Goat Hill Classics.
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I reached out to Paul Baker recently at Goat Hill and previously to Fred Ballard. Fred is active in the Mustang and Mopar communities however I haven't seen any postings here or on TC regarding work done on GM / AC crimped style fuel pumps - anyone?. I have read considerable feedback and testimonial concerning Goat Hill Classics.
Lloyd, I suggest doing a search on this site using "Goat Hill" Here is one: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8974.msg63125#msg63125
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I reached out to Paul Baker recently at Goat Hill and previously to Fred Ballard. Fred is active in the Mustang and Mopar communities however I haven't seen any postings here or on TC regarding work done on GM / AC crimped style fuel pumps - anyone?. I have read considerable feedback and testimonial concerning Goat Hill Classics.
Lloyd, I suggest doing a search on this site using "Goat Hill" Here is one: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=8974.msg63125#msg63125
Thanks, I think I've read most all of the threads relating to Goat Hill on CRG, TC and even some other auto forums. I have also spoken with some customers.
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As bad a businessman as Paul might be, he is one "very" smart man. Engineering and manufacturer wise the guy is pure genius. He is however very slow at responding to people once they have sent their money, and likes to send his stuff whenever he gets to it. I think when people start complaining to him, he then moves their order to the bottom of the pile.
Last year, I ordered one of his harmonic balancers, fuel pumps, and a water pump. It took 5 weeks to get it out but he did ship it out as promised. Slow service, but did deliver. I really liked talking to him and learning what makes him tick, but in the future, may just buy from him at Portland maybe. I don't like paying in advance for services that are slow coming.
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I reached out to Paul Baker recently at Goat Hill and previously to Fred Ballard. Fred is active in the Mustang and Mopar communities however I haven't seen any postings here or on TC regarding work done on GM / AC crimped style fuel pumps - anyone?. I have read considerable feedback and testimonial concerning Goat Hill Classics.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4322.0
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I reached out to Paul Baker recently at Goat Hill and previously to Fred Ballard. Fred is active in the Mustang and Mopar communities however I haven't seen any postings here or on TC regarding work done on GM / AC crimped style fuel pumps - anyone?. I have read considerable feedback and testimonial concerning Goat Hill Classics.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4322.0
Kurt, you referenced an older thread which I have seen previously however I didn't see any CRG Member postings on their experience with Fred Ballard's rebuild service?
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I have the original off my car can it be restored ?
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I have the original off my car can it be restored ?
Certain CRG members who are knowledgeable in this subject area state unequivocally that crimped style fuel pumps were not engineered to be rebuilt and should not be. There are 2 service providers I am aware of who do rebuild these fuel pumps, Paul Baker,Goat Hill Classics and Fred Ballard. You may wish to research their customer experience and testimonials before considering having your fuel pump rebuilt.
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Hope this old thread will still be active. I had Fred Ballard restore a fuel pump for my ‘69 Z28 about 2-3 years ago. He did a good job and a very knowledgeable guy. I had fuel seep around the crimp when I first installed the pump. I took pictures of the fuel leak and sent them to Fred to confirm the source of the the leak which was from the weep holes in the upper fuel pump body. Fred had me send the pump back to him and he replaced the diaphragm. He included the diaphragm he removed when he shipped the pump back. He did not find an issue with the diaphragm so the leaks may have come from the diaphragm seal in the crimp. This was odd as the fuel was seen in the weep holes and probably seeped down and but around the crimp.
I ran the pump up until about two weeks ago until it developed an oil leak from the weep holes. I assume the oil seal has gone bad above the diaphragm and oil that naturally lubes the pump cam arm area is leaking into the backside of the diaphragm. Once a sufficient amount of oil collects, the pressure generated buy the diaphragm starts pumping it out of the weep holes. The weep holes are necessary to relieve pressure on the backside (opposite the fuel chamber side) of the pump so that it operates correctly. If the diaphragm tears or becomes damaged and allows fuel on the top side of the diaphragm, fuel will leak from the weep holes to let you know the pump is bad. If fuel is allowed to build up on the top side of the diagram, it can leak into the pump push area behind the fuel pump mounting plate, and down the oil drain hole into the oil plan. That would be a bad thing!
I will contact Fred this week to discuss the oil seal issue and keep you posted if/how Fred handles this issue. Since I installed the pump, my Camaro has only been driven about 300-600 miles so the oil seal failure in the pump is not due to high mileage wear and tear.
So perhaps it a hit or miss on the restoration of the crimped style GM fuel pumps?
Dave