CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: DAVEN1256 on October 04, 2016, 12:42:44 AM
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I am going to be buying all new brake and fuel lines in stainless steel. Also, new hoses, clips, and fasteners for the brake and fuel lines.
I have a '68 with power front disc brakes
I have compared prices between Right Stuff Detailing, In-Line Tube, and Rick's. They are all pretty close with Right Stuff being a hair more.
Just wondering what experience people have had and if one supplier is recommended over another?
Also, I am wanting the clips, fasteners, and hoses to be as close to original as possible. Any suggestions on those?
Thanks....Dave
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Why in stainless? It's hard and can be really difficult to get good sealing connections.
The original material lasts forever and doesn't rust on a driver.
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I am replacing the original 48 year old original brake and fuel lines on this car and I have zero experience with buying these new and re-plumbing the entire car.
My choice of stainless is based on them not rusting and staying nice looking as time goes by. I have seen many stainless lines at car shows and think they look great.
So your question, "Why stainless?", brings up more questions and concerns from me.....
1) You say that the original material last forever and does not rust. My original lines are all covered with surface rust. I even had a hole rust through one of brake lines once and it started leaking. So I am not confident the lines made out of OEM steel are going to stay looking nice fro a long time.
2) Why do manufacturers go through the trouble of manufacturing stainless lines and charge considerably more money for them if they have to potential to leak?
3) Are the connectors (fittings) on stainless lines made of stainless also.....and with the hardness of the stainless, this is why it is hard to get a leak free connection?
4) I hear that the long front to rear brake line comes with a "shipping bend" that makes it easier to ship. How hard are these bends to straighten out? Especially with the harder stainless?
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Dave, I believe Kurt was saying that regular steel will last a lifetime on a car that doesn't see harsh driving conditions, ie rain or salt like your car likely saw in it's early life. I put stainless lines on my car for the same reasons as you mention and I had good luck with it. I had no problems with the flares sealing. I'm pretty sure I got mine from Inline Tube and I'm not sure if the flare nuts are stainless too. I'll check. And, the front to back line does come with a shipping bend unless your car has the the rear proportioning valve. It's not too difficult to straighten. Hope this helps.
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In addition, regarding rusting lines, most do not know that the lines generally rust from the inside out on brakes. Brake fluid (DOT 3) is a desiccant, meaning it absorbs moisture. That is why most manuals, if not all, recommend changing the fluid. IIR, M-B's recommend fluid be changed every year, preferably in the Spring when humidity is low. The rust on the outside is from what is put down on the roads in the winter, calcium chloride. It is a major corrosive (probably paid for by the big 3 or whatever they are called today?) Avoiding winter driving, washing the underside if driven in the winter and spray with a Boeshield or something similar and they will be as new, at least for your lifetime anyway.
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Dave, u might need to restore some of your clips if possible. Clips purchased are close but i noted differences in my build thread including error in AIM compared to original 68's. We have stainless on our 69Z pro-touring car and they can be a Bear to seal and work with. Go with in-Line tube for lines but be prepared to tweak many times with any of the available kits.
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Dave, Check out Classic Tube as well, they build them. They will put the colored steel fittings on the stainless lines if you want that look. No fitment or sealing issues on my car.
Mike
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I have used stainless several times. Leaks every time. Steel will look good if driven in fair weather. Your bolt threads will rust first in not treated.
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stainless no good .Used it once never again !leaks leaks leaks
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Thanks for all the advice and comments so far.
I think I opened up a can of worms here. I was already to go with stainless but am now reconsidering.
In stainless steel's favor, I live in central Florida, the humidity capital of the US. Any untreated ferrous metal left outside rusts in no time.
In OEM's favor, I am replacing every hard brake line on this car so that means 20 hard line connections and 20 potential leaks if using stainless steel. That's a little scary! Also, in 29 years of living here, I've never had a brake line rust through from the inside out on a daily driven car. Not saying it can't happen, it's just never happened to me.
It seems some people on this site have had no trouble with stainless while other have. If you do an Internet search on "stainless steel brake lines leaking," you can find endless stories of leaking connections where stainless was used.
So now I am on the fence about this and haven't made up my mind on which way to go.
Dave
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I'm curious why some of us have problems with stainless and some don't. When I installed mine I replaced all the hoses, hold off valve, and master cyl also. So, none of the fittings were previously marred and I had no problems.
John, Kelley, Kurt, any chance you were installing on previously used lines or fittings?
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Not too happy with the set from Rick's, as far as bends are concerned.Sending back.
Did my kid's Silverado last fall with a stainless set through Summit ( Classic Tube): all lines were marked, marked where they bent for shipping, no leaks. Seat the fitting, back off, re-seat. Don't over-tighten. Bends matched the factory bends almost spot on. Give them an A. Stainless is more expensive, I just like the look. My OE's appear in great shape, not to say what's going on inside the line.So I'm replacing. Like someone stated, non-harsh environment, syn-fluid. The more I think about it, really no reason to fork over the extra coin for stainless. Traditional lines should carry the car over to it's next caretaker,lol. Can't speak for locations next to saltwater. Ohio put's it's under lake salt on the roads.
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Back to " where to buy" I have never discredited a vendor. And have had many a box come from Rick's with satisfaction. A company out of Florida makes up the kits. They were beyond tweaking. Right from the start, in comparison to my originals, run from passenger front had the bend a few inches too far coming across the cross member, then ended on some far off tangent. Another line had a bend 180 degrees off from the original. Would be a nightmare for someone to have ordered thinking they would be at least close, with no reference. I did address these issues on the comment section of the return slip.May just be a bad set.
Word of advice: pre-soak all your fittings at least the night before tear down with Blaster, or better yet Krol(spelling ??) penetrating oil. Try to salvage as much line as possible.Old habit from when I'm bending my own lines. Someone on the site also recommends Evaporust as a pre- soak. I have never tried, but plan on my next rusty fastener encounter.
Check the flares in whatever kit you decide on.
During assembly, finger tight only the 2 ends first. Giving a very gentle wiggle as you are tightening, you should be able to feel the flare mate with the brass fitting. Line should be centered. Straight coming out of the fitting. ( the one your tightening) Probably not your first Prom, just adding my 2 cents if it can be of help.
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Dave,
I mentioned where I purchased my lines from and I had no problems with any of them sealing. My guess is the flares would be the source of other peoples sealing problems. If the flare is not right it will be tough to get enough pressure to reform the stainless steel flare to seal with the just using the flare nut. That could be why some people say to preassemble the lines and crank them down a couple of times to make sure they don't leak.
I walked my original lines through their door and they compared my lines to their patterns, some small changes were made to how their lines would have fit to the contours of the floor boards. Any brake lines purchased from Classic Tube for a 1969 Z/28 in the last 5 years were patterned checked off of my car.
Mike
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In answer to #10 I did mate to existing fittings. Another note about syn-fluid, White Post Restorations told me when I returned my master cylinder for their lifetime warranty that if I had used syn-fluid they would not cover the warranty. I had not and they did not say what they had against syn-fluid.
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In answer to #10 I did mate to existing fittings. Another note about syn-fluid, White Post Restorations told me when I returned my master cylinder for their lifetime warranty that if I had used syn-fluid they would not cover the warranty. I had not and they did not say what they had against syn-fluid.
My mistake also: DOT 5 is silicon based. We have discussed this in the past, but for a rehash, here is some info:
Of critical importance in determining a fluids ability to handle high temperature applications is the Dry Boiling Point and compressibility.
The Dry Boiling Point is the temperature at which a brake fluid will boil in its virgin non-contaminated state. The highest temperature Dry Boiling Point available in a DOT 3 fluid is 572° F.
The Wet Boiling Point is the temperature a brake fluid will boil after it has been fully saturated with moisture. The DOT 3 requirement for wet boiling point is a minimum temperature of 284° F.
There are many ways for moisture to enter your brake system. Condensation from regular use, washing the vehicle and humidity are the most common, with little hope of prevention. Glycol based DOT 3 & 4 fluids are hygroscopic; they absorb brake system moisture, and over time the boiling point is gradually reduced. Here is a scary statistic, a new car at 12 months old will have a 2% water content if never driven, at 18 months it will be 3% or higher depending on atmospheric conditions. It is not unusual to have 8-12% water content in the average automobile on the street.
You should not use DOT 5 fluid in any racing application for the following reasons. DOT 5 fluid is not hygroscopic, so as moisture enters the system, it is not absorbed by the fluid, and results in beads of moisture moving through the brake line, collecting in the calipers. It is not uncommon to have caliper temperatures exceed 200° F, and at 212° F, this collected moisture will boil causing vapor lock and system failure. Additionally, DOT 5 fluid is highly compressible due to aeration and foaming under normal braking conditions, providing a spongy brake feel. DOT 5 fluid is best suited for show car applications where its anti-corrosion and paint friendly characteristics are important.
Whenever you add fresh fluid to your existing system (never mix fluids of different DOT classifications), it immediately becomes contaminated, lowering the boiling point of the new fluid. For maximum performance, start with the highest Dry Boiling Point available, flush the system completely, and flush it regularly, especially after severe temperatures have been experienced.
If you happen to mix DOT 3/4 and DOT 5 you will end up with a coagulated gel that will seriously compromise your braking performance. Dot 5.1 is a Glycol based fluid like DOT 3 or 4 and should not be confused with DOT 5 which is silicone based, many new European cars specify DOT 5 but in Europe they don't recognize the silicone based (DOT 5) fluid so they really mean DOT 5.1, ensure you don't confuse the two. DOT 5.1 was developed for ABS braking systems and is of a thinner viscosity to allow shorter cycle timing, it's boiling point is similar to DOT 3 or 4.
Much of this info I cut and pasted from the Wilwood brakes site and I have had similar expierience with GT3 racing cars when I tried DOT 5, it was a waste of time and money.
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I appreciate all the thoughts and advice given here....and the time people took to do it.
After weighing all the replies here and ones I got over at Team Camaro, searches I did on the Internet about stainless steel lines leaking, and talking in person to experienced people ......I have decided to go with OEM steel lines and not stainless.
There are people out there who have had no trouble with stainless and others that have had nothing but trouble with them. If I got stainless, it's seems it would be a crap shoot as to which of those two categories I am going to end up falling into. The people who have had trouble seem to outweigh those who didn't so that's the direction I decided to go.
I still weighing between Right Stuff Detailing, In Line Tube, and Classic Tube for where to get them but am leaning towards Classic Tube.
As far as clips and fasteners, the ones I have seen on Heartbeat City's website look closer to original than any other's I have seen so I will be going with those.
Again....thanks for all the help
Dave
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I appreciate all the thoughts and advice given here....and the time people took to do it.
After weighing all the replies here and ones I got over at Team Camaro, searches I did on the Internet about stainless steel lines leaking, and talking in person to experienced people ......I have decided to go with OEM steel lines and not stainless.
There are people out there who have had no trouble with stainless and others that have had nothing but trouble with them. If I got stainless, it's seems it would be a crap shoot as to which of those two categories I am going to end up falling into. The people who have had trouble seem to outweigh those who didn't so that's the direction I decided to go.
I still weighing between Right Stuff Detailing, In Line Tube, and Classic Tube for where to get them but am leaning towards Classic Tube.
As far as clips and fasteners, the ones I have seen on Heartbeat City's website look closer to original than any other's I have seen so I will be going with those.
Again....thanks for all the help
Dave
In Line tube is the best from what I have determined from my experiences but would guess everyone has had both good and not so good experiences from all of them. In Line also sells some pretty good hardware items but as I commented earlier, I used many of my originals parts. In my build thread I show pictures of originals with stampings and do some comparisons along with how the AIM is incorrect in one area concerning a brake line.
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Chick, just wondering what your experience is that makes you favor In Line Tube.
Dave
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Just put my order in to Classic Tube. Will update comparable to OE lines when the shipment comes in. Have yet to come across any negative posts concerning Inline Tube, even had them bookmarked as first choice vendor for the lines. Just so happened the kit I dealt with last year was Classic, and I was very pleased. Might be a case of " six of one, 1/2 dozen of another"
Ended up going with OE steel to keep concurrent with the rest of the under hood detailing. My originals are still in good shape from 68, new lines should make it another 50 years! As posted/recommended, will be coating them with Sharkhide.
How is the rest of the system? Calipers, MC, hoses, etc..? Good time to rebuild distribution block, hold off valve. And prop valve if so equipped(sub frame under driver's side door)
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Chick, just wondering what your experience is that makes you favor In Line Tube.
Dave
Well from two examples of brake lines theirs fit the best but that was just for my car which accounts for one but also I had saved a article on restoration and that restorer used them exclusively. Others had told me they had good luck with them also.
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In-line tubes brake lines fit perfect.
Mike
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Chick, just wondering what your experience is that makes you favor In Line Tube.
When I look back at what I wrote, it came out sounding wrong. It looks like I am saying how experienced are you? That wasn't how it was meant. What I was trying say was what kind of experiences have you had with different company's brake lines that made your favor one brand over another?....I just wanted to clarify that.
You still answered the question I was trying to ask.
Thanks.......Dave
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I've used In-Line tube for Camaros and GTO and had no issues.
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Scott, any thoughts or opinions on the stainless lines vs OEM steel lines and leakage problems with the stainless.
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Scott, any thoughts or opinions on the stainless lines vs OEM steel lines and leakage problems with the stainless.
To correct my previous post, Right Stuff was used for the GTO and no issues with them either. I've always used steel lines, never had a reason to use stainless on a restoration. As should be apparent, because the stainless is harder, it will not seat as easily as steel. Daily drivers I use copper/nickel lines as many I know do.
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After a lot reading here and at Team Camaro and talking to some people who do restorations for a living or have a lot of restoration experience, I decided to go with the OEM steel and lines and ordered them from Inline Tube.
For clips and fasteners, I bought my brake line clips from Heartbeat City, my fuel line clips from Inline Tube, and some miscellaneous parts that were not included in the either kit from Heartbeat City......Not saying that they are not out there, but I did not see any kit that included every piece shown in the AIM of both the brake and fuel line clips and fasteners.
Thanks for everyone's help on this......I feels good to have this settled and the parts ordered.
Dave
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If we are taking a poll, I have used In Line Tube for many years. I feel theirs is the best on the market.
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I used In Line Tube oem steel on my car. All brake lines, fuel lines (pump to filter, filter to carb, tank to pump and return), transmission cooler lines, and trans modulator line, and vacuum advance line. All fit perfect and look great.
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Just put my order in to Classic Tube. Will update comparable to OE lines when the shipment comes in. Have yet to come across any negative posts concerning Inline Tube, even had them bookmarked as first choice vendor for the lines. Just so happened the kit I dealt with last year was Classic, and I was very pleased. Might be a case of " six of one, 1/2 dozen of another"
Ended up going with OE steel to keep concurrent with the rest of the under hood detailing. My originals are still in good shape from 68, new lines should make it another 50 years! As posted/recommended, will be coating them with Sharkhide.
How is the rest of the system? Calipers, MC, hoses, etc..? Good time to rebuild distribution block, hold off valve. And prop valve if so equipped(sub frame under driver's side door)
I'm into this brake thing now. What is Sharkhide? Could you educate me? Thanks.
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Just put my order in to Classic Tube. Will update comparable to OE lines when the shipment comes in. Have yet to come across any negative posts concerning Inline Tube, even had them bookmarked as first choice vendor for the lines. Just so happened the kit I dealt with last year was Classic, and I was very pleased. Might be a case of " six of one, 1/2 dozen of another"
Ended up going with OE steel to keep concurrent with the rest of the under hood detailing. My originals are still in good shape from 68, new lines should make it another 50 years! As posted/recommended, will be coating them with Sharkhide.
How is the rest of the system? Calipers, MC, hoses, etc..? Good time to rebuild distribution block, hold off valve. And prop valve if so equipped(sub frame under driver's side door)
I'm into this brake thing now. What is Sharkhide? Could you educate me? Thanks.
http://www.sharkhide.com/sharkhide_metal_protectant.htm
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Got it. Thanks!