CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: john302 on September 12, 2016, 01:37:18 AM
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Thinking about this for awhile not sure?Found a real rare black copo a year ago sitting in a garage since 1975.No driveline or factory paper work. Unrestored but needing a complete restoration.Not sure what to think about the radio antenna hole in the fender.The fenders are original to the car and never removed from the car.The hole for the antenna is not factory and is in the wrong spot. It looks like it was made with air chisel.No kidding.So it was not made by the factory.But here is the odd thing the kick panels are factory cut for speakers and the back deck has them also.So it has four factory speakers ,but not a factory antenna hole?There is also a speaker in the dash but doesn't look assembly line correct. The second owner 1970-1975 said it had the speakers from the time he purchased it in the fall of 70.Dealer installed system?Would the dealer install new kick panels ?Also the wire for the blower motor doesn't have the noise suppressor .It is the common orange wire and there was never a suppressor mounted on the lower heater box stud. Any other clues to prove it is a factory radio delete car? thanks John
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All Camaros had a punched hole on the RH hinge pillar for the antenna lead. The hole is plugged on cars built without a radio or with a rear antenna.
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Yes that hole is correct.There is no rubber plug because of the antenna wire.The hole on the fender is the incorrect one.
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Could it have been a rear antenna car? (not sure of COPO was mandatory spoiler in rear)
Just thinking maybe someone filled the rear hole possibly
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no because it a x11/d80 car
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John, not to be a d!ck, but if it doesn't have the original drive train or any paperwork, how do you know it's a COPO? You can't always trust the owner. (I once had a guy try to sell me a 69 "original" 427 big block Z28! He said he special ordered it and it was 1 of 1.)
What's the VIN? Kurt might be able to find some info about it in the DB.
Ed
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I knew that question was coming.Many ways.This is a barnfind old race car.The owner knows nothing about Camaros.Here is the scoop 427 written on the fender extensions with 47 years of dirt on top of the 427.No emblems for engine size,single 3/8 fuelline,factory cowl hood with all firewall cowl parts ontouched,big block frame mounts ,bb heater box never removed,bb fan shroud mount,pictures from pre 1975 racing,dual exhaust plate on rear frame,x11/d80 no its not a SS350.Fenders or any sheet metal never removed.The body build number is one after Taboos black copo he purchased new at Brigance .This car was sold at Brigance also.Remember copos are built in batches.Also contacted the second owner 1970-75 he said it come with a 427 and a m21.He purchased it from the original owner with 5k miles on it.Now there are 12k miles.I am going to post some pics soon. I am 100 percent sure it as real as they come. Excellent restoration project.How many black x11 copos are there sold from a known hi po dealer.
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This car was sold at Brigance also. Remember copos are built in batches.
Not always true.
The ‘COPO body number theory’ developed years ago based on data from Gibb and Yenko. The body numbers for many of their COPOs [and some other dealers] are often in groupings of consecutive numbers. The thinking was a potential COPO had to fit into one of the known groups. If it did not, it was ruled out as a COPO. At one time it was thought dealers had to order COPOs in some minimum quantity. Several dealers ordered one ZL1 and are not known to have ordered other COPOs. There are many known COPOs with random body numbers. As more COPO data became available it was obvious that the theory did not generally apply.
Consecutive body numbers are a byproduct of a dealer submitting a group of orders. If a dealer ordered several Camaros at a time and they and were quickly confirmed they typically have consecutive body numbers regardless of equipment. JM’s 1969 Camaro book has copies of documents for two 1969 Z/28s: N632127 [BDY 307027] and N632342 [BDY 307028]. There is a third car in the string that was not a Z/28: N627532 [BDY 307026]. The same dealership ordered 98 1969 Camaros; of those 56 are in sequence with at least one other car. Groups are typically 2-3 cars however there are groups of 7 & 8 cars. Berger Chevrolet ordered perhaps 50 9561 and 1 9560 COPOs in 4-5 separate groups. Their earliest COPOs have body numbers grouped in the N206xxx range and typically VINs of N607xxx-N609xxx. However their ZL1 N608193 is not in that range. It may or may not have been ordered with the others. If one of the cars in a group was not immediately confirmed it will not be in body number sequence with the others. One Gibb ZL1 is not in sequence with the other 49; all were ordered at the same time. Other Berger 9561 COPOs are not in sequence with any of their known COPOs.
There are other dealers with multiple COPOs also not in sequence: Dale, Emmert and Glockner to name a few.
I took a look through the CRG db and quickly found several examples of COPOs with body numbers very close or in sequence with standard production cars:
NOR 2xx748 is an L65 Powerglide
NOR 2xx749 is a COPO automatic
NOR 2xx130 is a Z11
NOR 2xx136 is a ZL1
NOR 3xx568 is a COPO
NOR 3xx569 is a Camaro SS
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Sure but what about the many other clues.This car was sitting in the same spot for 40 years.The owner knows nothing Camaros.The driveline is gone ,but nothing else has ever been apart.Same way since 75.
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Looking forward to pics.
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How many black x11 copos are there sold from a known hi po dealer. (?)
Got me convinced. Sounds cooool! Now, to address your question: I have a friend with a 10-10 COPO in the Cincy area. I think it is a Queen City car. A known Hi-po dealer.
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Sure but what about the many other clues.This car was sitting in the same spot for 40 years.The owner knows nothing Camaros.The driveline is gone ,but nothing else has ever been apart.Same way since 75.
Not saying it isn't real. Probably is. But a restoration will destroy much of the originality.
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Very true.Will post some pics thanks
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8-track tape player only?
Just a random thought. No antenna needed.
Ground straps or not?
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The lack of a blower capacitor means it could've had an AM radio.
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8-track tape player only?
I agree. Looks like the original buyer only wanted the 8 track tape player and at some point "someone" added a front antenna (or at least the hole!)
Ed
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That sounds correct. The antenna hole is not factory .There are ground straps on the subframe on right side .One from the torque box and one from fender well(late car).Also noise suppressor on voltage reg.So you could order just a 8 track and no radio?Would the 8 track be mounted on the tunnel?thanks
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Yes, the 8 track (RPO U57) could be purchased as a "stand-alone" option since it didn't required a radio. And it could be mounted under the dash or on the console.
Ed
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so that explains a lot. The 8 track has four speakers and the dash one was installed later.The dash speaker is not like a assembly line speaker.I am going to look for mounting holes for the 8 track. So if you ordered an 8 track system from the factory would it come with four speaker or five?
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Just the 4 speakers (2 kick panel, added on the Chevrolet side of the wall, and 2 rear deck, installed by Fisher Body on the other side of the wall).
Ed
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now THAT is the hot ticket.. a COPO with an 8-track.. (wonder what music we'd need to put it to make it complete???).. :)
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I would say quite unusual.
The only thing I would want to be listening to is the roar of the big block... :)
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now THAT is the hot ticket.. a COPO with an 8-track.. (wonder what music we'd need to put it to make it complete???).. :)
Led Zeppelin of course
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now THAT is the hot ticket.. a COPO with an 8-track.. (wonder what music we'd need to put it to make it complete???).. :)
Zepplin would be great, but I can still hear Jackson Brown and Fleetwood Mac singing out of my 8 track player along with the "click" of it changing tracks...
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now THAT is the hot ticket.. a COPO with an 8-track.. (wonder what music we'd need to put it to make it complete???).. :)
Cream!
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*wondering what I did with my old 8-trks (and 4-trks)...???.... *
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So after reading the story about this car, I thought of a few questions. The story stated that the owner knew nothing about Camaros, much less COPO Camaros. So the owner must not be the one who purchased or raced it? How did it come into the owner's possession? And how did the owner end up with pics of it racing if he's not the one who raced it?
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this feels like a police interrogation by the LAPD.Should have never stated it was a black copo .As for your questions I purchased it from the third owner (1975-2015).He know the second owner who raced it.Thats how he ended up with the car. The second owner is the one who did the damage to the driveline.He thought the car was long gone up until a few years ago.He move out of the area in the seventys.He is the one who had the pics when it was a race car.
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Can't wait to see pics!! 8)
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John I assure you nobody's trying to give you a hard time. If they do, I will take them back behind the wood shed for a talk. :)
I know, a lot of questions. Sorry...
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John, if you would have just left the word "COPO" out of the title (and the initial text), no one would have been the wiser!! But you can't expect to fly under the radar when a rare car is presented!
:o
And PICTURES PLEASE!!! Especially the 1970's racing!
Ed
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So both you know both the second and third owners, with you being the fourth. That's actually very positive because they may have the knowledge/information or documentation to help confirm your COPO. Might even know who the original was/is.