CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Original Cars and Details => Topic started by: KurtS on June 09, 2016, 03:37:15 AM
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Here's a nice survivor that Steve has.
This car was purchased new at H.O.B. Motors in North Plainfield, NJ by Don K. The car was dealer inventory and on the lot. The car has few options: console, gauges, and deluxe comfort weave interior. No spoilers, no cowl hood and not even a radio, although on the dealer invoice a Motorola AM radio is noted. The original owner had it until 2009 and put only 32k miles. Never modified and even the smog was never removed.
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I'm not sure which 'Steve' this is owned by, but he definitely has a well-preserved and gorgeous '69 Z28.. :)
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Thanks for posting this car Kurt. A very nice unrestored car with few options X77 car. Looks like a valve cover swap by the original owner. 32k miles after 40 years, that just amazes me. I am sitting on 47k miles up till 2007, and it is impressive to me the fore sight by these original owners to preserve their cars from the beginning. The no spoiler/ flat hood is almost a give away for a special car now a days... :)
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I'm not sure which 'Steve' this is owned by, but he definitely has a well-preserved and gorgeous '69 Z28.. :)
Shauger
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.. :) .. then I will congratulate Steve Shauger on 'another' very fine 69.... (He can stage his own car shows in his garage!).. :)
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Thanks for the kind words. What is amazing to me is the original owner owned a Sunoco station and never modified the car. This may have been a 40th birthday present to himself. I believe M20 trans with 373's is the best combination for the street. The car has road rash and had some paintless dent removal, but overall the paint is amazing, interior is like new, underside had dealer undercoating removed and the floors are gorgeous. There's something about the way an untouched car runs and drives. The flat hood, no spoiler look is growing on me....:)
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Is that a 'new purchase'? or a newly traded for car, Steve? (hopefully you didn't trade your halloween Z.. :) )
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Is that a 'new purchase'? or a newly traded for car, Steve? (hopefully you didn't trade your halloween Z.. :) )
No this was a cash deal for the Silver Z28 and a driver LB RS/SS L78 I sold in 2004. The great pumpkin is a keeper after chasing it for 25 years. I finally have that car all dialed in except the front shocks I replaced are horrible so I have a set of KYB's to install. The silver Z28 runs perfect!
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Thanks for posting this car Kurt. A very nice unrestored car with few options X77 car. Looks like a valve cover swap by the original owner. 32k miles after 40 years, that just amazes me. I am sitting on 47k miles up till 2007, and it is impressive to me the fore sight by these original owners to preserve their cars from the beginning. The no spoiler/ flat hood is almost a give away for a special car now a days... :)
Couldn't agree more - it is nice to see a non-spoiler flat hood 69 Z28. Especially a true 32k mile survivor! Very nice.
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Very nice!
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Steve I agree M20 3.73 is a brutal street combo... outrun a 4.10 M21 car all day long off the line or on the top.
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I would be interested in driving that combo. I have a M21 3.73 and once you get off the line it hauls ass. I have driven 2 of my friends M21 4.10 cars and they drove similar, only thing I noticed were the RPMS a bit higher once you got into the 80's. I have had a M20 in a couple of vehicles and while it may have a lower first gear to get off the line, it wasn't noticeably that different. I did notice that the gear spacing was a bit more than the M21, when short shifting, so you weren't necessarily in that sweet spot like the M21, where there is hardly any drop off between shifts. Just my experience. I also drove a Z with a M21, and a 3.50 ratio, what a dog off the line :P And each gear it would get way up in the RPMS when the cam would kick in. A little to close for comfort, to the 8k range for me.
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I've had two M20- 4.10 cars both were BRUTAL off the line.
I figure that the M20 3.55 combo would be a great all around driver especially if you were on the highway 30% of the time.
M20 3.55 is better off the line than a M21 3.73 and great on the top for RPM's.
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So your just losing the middle shifts, since the ratio of gears are farther apart?
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Kurt your getting away with less than the minimum amount of pics here for this car....(according to the guidelines ;D)
I look forward to more pics
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I just start it. Pics are Steve's to post. :)
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So your just losing the middle shifts, since the ratio of gears are farther apart?
No Austin.. our M20/3.73 cars would beat your thru ALL the gears... :) :)
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Bummer, I was going to race you guys for pinks.... :P
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Kurt your getting away with less than the minimum amount of pics here for this car....(according to the guidelines ;D)
I look forward to more pics
Just let me know what pics or information you're interested in. I resized a few more and can take more, however it's located in the next town where I store some of my cars.
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More pics
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More pics
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Trunk
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Thank you for posting those pics Steve!
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Great pics. How many miles are on it now?
My car is also heavily undercoated. My car went to Ziebart on day 2. What kind of process was that to remove all of it?
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The striping detail (or lack there of) in the trunk and engine compartment is unbelievable - really shows how restored cars are way too perfect in these areas...
Awesome information paceme.
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Great pics. How many miles are on it now?
My car is also heavily undercoated. My car went to Ziebart on day 2. What kind of process was that to remove all of it?
Removal of undercoating was done by carefully heating and using plastic scraper,s followed by a kerosene bath and towels. Just and FYI, this is not something I will ever attempt. I know some have uses a high pressure steam cleaner.
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Just curious, I may never get to it myself. I have heard it is an involved process. I imagine the underside could be pristine, if all of it came off though. Do you have any before and after pics of the process?
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Just curious, I may never get to it myself. I have heard it is an involved process. I imagine the underside could be pristine, if all of it came off though. Do you have any before and after pics of the process?
Here's a before and after.
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Very nice. Looks like somebody or somebodies had some time into it, to get it into its current state.(looks like you could eat off of those floor pans) Was Evaporust used on some of the surface rusted parts, or what did you use to bring back the natural finishes?
Did you find an assembly line number on the inside of the wheels, or any other parts of the body, similar to other unrestored cars? pics if possible
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The previous owner had the undercoating removed and it was rather costly, but as you stated the floor pans were preserved. Evaporust was used to minimize oxidation, and a boeshield type product was used as a preservative. Can't recall seeing a job # but the spare tire is dated Feb of 69 and manufactured at the Goodyear Gadsen plant.
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Have you disassembled any parts of the car looking for original paperwork? Such as seats or carpet removed?
It looks like exhaust got changed out, (as many have). What other items got replaced or went out? How much of the original paint is still on the car?
What kind of documentation did you get with it?
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Tires, exhaust, battery, plugs and small tuneup components. Just a few paint touch ups, so 90 + Orig paint.
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Regarding documentation, I have predelivery inspection, dealer invoice, bank document, orig title copy, original registration, protecto plate, orig keys with punch outs and misc saleman notes. I spoke with the original owner yesterday and he confirmed just about everthing I had learned, and at 87 he's as sharp as ever.
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The hood & trunk stripe detail is like porn...
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Very good info. I am glad you were able to get so much off the original paperwork. It seems like some of these original owners think alike, on keeping anything and everything from the car. I am surprised the window sticker is a harder one to come across. I always try to get them from any cars I purchase, but even on some of these original owner cars, they are not found. That is great you still converse with the original owner, it is like stepping back in time, when ever I talk to the original owners wife of my car. The memories seem so crystal clear.
Did this car have the 3 wire "mickey mouse" spark plug wire separators when you got it? (Hard to tell from the pics) Also since you see many original low mile 69 survivor cars at your show, do you see it often enough to think it was used the entire 69 model year?
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These the wire separators?
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no. it was talked about in another thread:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=14620.0
Curious if this car had them, or how often Steve runs across them since he sees so many original low milage cars, and if he has seen them run all the way through the 69 model year on Camaros.
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Great car Steve! Been working on our 68 and have not spent much time on this site recently and look what has been happening! Look forward to some detailed engine pictures.
Thanks for sharing!
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Great thread! Congrats Steve!!
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no. it was talked about in another thread:
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=14620.0
Curious if this car had them, or how often Steve runs across them since he sees so many original low milage cars, and if he has seen them run all the way through the 69 model year on Camaros.
Oh, I was totally unaware of these. I looked at the pics of this car again, and it almost looks like I see one of these separating the plug wires on the engine right side just to the left of the breather hose from the air cleaner to the valve cover?
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I agree JimmyV... it does appear to have the 3-wire separator installed... :)
Austin: The AIM pages which showed and referenced that separator didn't show any 'revision' dates which would indicate it was only installed part of the year... ie. based on the AIM, these would have been installed the entire year.
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Well you guys have better eyes than me. I can see a clip on the passenger side, it could be that 3 wire mickey mouse clip.
The original owner must have had a very gentle touch when swapping the valve covers not to have damaged it.
I would think the engine heat would have made it brittle as well over the years. I have had larger more heavy duty wire separators that got brittle for this reason.
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Separator is clearly there. I have had glass for over 40 years and even I could see it. lol :)
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Also there on the HO Z28 Survivor.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/Survivor%20Camaros/100_9210_zpsf895c7b0.jpg
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I see what you are talking about on the passenger side, just not the best pics of it.
I was looking closely at the pics of Skips car on the drivers side of the motor and didn't see it. I do see a clip on the passenger side where the AIM shows it to be. thanks
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These three wire retainers were used on both big and small blocks. I've seen them on very early thru June and believe they were used the throughout production. This pic is a 4D NOR L48.
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Here's a 9D Z, and I believe I have a picture of a 10D car as well.
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passenger side only from what you have seen? or just not shown in the pics?
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The AIM showed both sides, Austin... :) Why are you doubting the AIM? :)
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The AIM showed both sides, Austin... :) Why are you doubting the AIM? :)
passenger side only from what you have seen? or just not shown in the pics?
Both sides. Heres a 9B of 68, NOR L34 2Q wires
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The AIM...hahaha. I am sure the assembly did not stop if they ran out of stock of this clip, or if a car made it out the door without one.
But hey I will check my wires and see if there is an impression of that clip having been there. Its very possible it could have been.
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Here are pics of my 5K mile 68 Chevelle with the 3 wire retainer clips. There are always going to be anomalies in the manufacturing of mass produced cars. Just like today, products are built with very specific work instructions, but processes, suppliers and/ or persons are not perfect. There were so many variables that could have contributed to variances, but we must focus on standards rather than one off instances. That being said once a trend is found such as x# of cars having rear stripe discrepancy at a specific timeframe and plant, we need to accept and use this knowledge when restoring and judging cars.
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I guess the 3-wire retainer was a SB thing. I checked my 67 BB and have two 4-wire at the tall rear valve cover towers and two 2-wire on the valve cover shorter towers.
Mike
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I have not seen one on a 67 or 8 BB car.. Though I would think Steve would have a larger viewing window than myself.
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The 67 AIM, in section L35, shows what looks like a loose 2-wire retainer on both sides that is for securing wires right after the 4-wire retainer and before the fixed 2-wire retainer but I don't have them on either 67. Either they were discarded by previous owners or not used.
Do you have them on your '68, Darrell?
Mike
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Had the 4 one on the drivers side and nothing on the pass. I pulled it (4 wire one) off a couple years ago and put it in the tool box and forgot to reinstall it when I had the 1 broken valve spring.
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I worked on some Camaros, Z28s etc of that era when they were new, but I don't recall such insignificant details as the 'wire separators).. :) .. actually, I have trouble remembering some much more significant things after all these years! :)
Regarding such items as these wire separators, for myself and many others I'm sure, the first time we work under the hood, changing plugs, wires, checking our oil, etc... we likely would reroute wires to be more consistent with where we think they should be (depending on our own viewpoints, etc). When we change wires or plugs, those separators break, fall off, or don't get put back on (they've been referred to as 'mickey mouse!'), none of us ever intentionally removed or didn't re-install items that we considered to be 'mickey mouse' or unnecessary, did we? (thinking about the smog stuff right this second!).. :)
Yet now 47-49 yrs later, we're trying to determine if the factory *really* put them on every car??? hmmmm.. :) as Paceme Steve stated, we have to go by the 'standards' and documentation we have which is what the factory used; whether every single car got them or not... who knows? I challenge anyone of you to prove your car did not get them! I'm really waiting to see the proof that Austin can come up with to 'prove' his car didn't come with them... :) :) :)
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I challenge anyone of you to prove your car did not get them! I'm really waiting to see the proof that Austin can come up with to 'prove' his car didn't come with them... :) :) :)
But isnt that the fun of the whole thing Gary? To learn and discuss? Isnt that the reason we are all (ok most of us) are here? If I wanted to restore a car and it be in black and white I'd restore a vette. :o
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I challenge anyone of you to prove your car did not get them! I'm really waiting to see the proof that Austin can come up with to 'prove' his car didn't come with them... :) :) :)
But isnt that the fun of the whole thing Gary? To learn and discuss? Isnt that the reason we are all (ok most of us) are here? If I wanted to restore a car and it be in black and white I'd restore a vette. :o
Yes, it is Darrell.... :) I love hearing about/reading about the 'anomalies', but believability requires some degree of 'proof'.. not just hearsay over 5 or 6 owners over 45 yrs...
PS. Even in the Vette world, there are anomalies! I assisted a friend in ordering a '96 CE Corvette; we special ordered it with the LT4/6 speed and for 'museum delivery' (one of the very first ones!). When we received it, and I got to drive it.. I immediately noticed that it had the tachometer for the LT1 (LT4s had a higher redline!) - the young buyer didn't notice that! ... We inquired thru the Corvette Action Center at that time; they first suggested that we take it to a dealer (which we refused to do). They refused to send us the correct tach and allow us to replace it and send back the other. We ended up arranging for the Corvette plant 'squeaks and rattles' guy to come over to the museum during a Corvette event we attended - and the squeaks and rattles fella came in and replaced the tach for us in the museum garage (with 20 of us looking over this shoulder!). That made it 'documentable' and provable.. :) AND I have a few photos somewhere..
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My comment was meant as a jab/joke of the Corvette restoration guideline books that NCRS puts out.. I am gonna stop posting/replying in this thread as I having nothing more to say other than great car and would like to see more pics of this subject.
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I understand what both of you are getting at. I agree in this instance you have to kinda work with what was the standard practice. Thank you Steve for pointing out the cars you have seen them on, and the time frames. Also the pics are great of those cars, you are a wealth of info with the pics to back it up.
I get the Vette joke. I have never attended the Corvette Church of manors, nor read through "the bible" of NCRS restoration guide lines, but I have met Corvette guys (and been looked down upon from them ..lol), and they can be group that is fun to observe from afar. Gary your story of 20 of you guys looking over the technicians shoulder is a great visual of this. (no offense) ;D
OK, back to Steves great car!
I assume since the radio, was mentioned as a dealer install, they would have had to drill the fender, wire up the speaker, and install the deck. I also assume the original owner brought the vehicle back for the motor bracket and cable, for the recall. Just curious since I have a large stack of my own invoices, if the original owner made continual visits to the dealership on a regular basis to see the car stayed in tip top shape or if it sat parked for a long duration of time? It seems that most of these original cars fall into one of these categories.
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Gary your story of 20 of you guys looking over the technicians shoulder is a great visual of this. (no offense) ;D
I see it daily in engineering management.. :o Ok now Im seriously done.. It was setup too perfect for me not to take a swing at it.. 8)
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I think Austin asked the mileage question. This is what I can confirm:
The last inspection was 1991 and insp sticker notes 32,015 miles
12/27/08 The car was looked at for purchase and the odometer read 32,295
The car today has 33,086 most of which was put on by Sal N,. the second owner.
Here are a few more detail pics. The picture with the three gentlemen is the pre-purchase inspection on 12/27/08. The orig owner is center and his son is on the right. The person to the left is a friend of Sal's (the purchaser) friend who inspected the car.
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Here are two underbody shots post undercoating removal.
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Whos the other 2 and what are they discussing.. Looks like one is saying (guy on the left) "Now Jimmy, I beat you by 2 cars last time we raced.. What makes you think this time is gonna be any different..??..." (guy on right) Hell Bobby, Ive got my fur-fiddy-fur tuned up and Im gonna bust dat azz....!!!.. Guy in the middle "Shit neither one of ya could out run the silver bullet.."
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Whos the other 2 and what are they discussing.. Looks like one is saying (guy on the left) "Now Jimmy, I beat you by 2 cars last time we raced.. What makes you think this time is gonna be any different..??..." (guy on right) Hell Bobby, Ive got my fur-fiddy-fur tuned up and Im gonna bust dat azz....!!!.. Guy in the middle "Shit neither one of ya could out run the silver bullet.."
LOL! ;D
Paul
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Whos the other 2 and what are they discussing.. Looks like one is saying (guy on the left) "Now Jimmy, I beat you by 2 cars last time we raced.. What makes you think this time is gonna be any different..??..." (guy on right) Hell Bobby, Ive got my fur-fiddy-fur tuned up and Im gonna bust dat azz....!!!.. Guy in the middle "Shit neither one of ya could out run the silver bullet.."
Cook, your night job must be as a court stenographer..... :o ...........for the tv show "divorce court". (Stick with wrenching buddy ;D )
Good info Steve. How long had you been aware of the car?
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Love the silver overspray on the pans...
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Whos the other 2 and what are they discussing.. Looks like one is saying (guy on the left) "Now Jimmy, I beat you by 2 cars last time we raced.. What makes you think this time is gonna be any different..??..." (guy on right) Hell Bobby, Ive got my fur-fiddy-fur tuned up and Im gonna bust dat azz....!!!.. Guy in the middle "Shit neither one of ya could out run the silver bullet.."
Cook, your night job must be as a court stenographer..... :o ...........for the tv show "divorce court". (Stick with wrenching buddy ;D )
Good info Steve. How long had you been aware of the car?
Sal, the second owner contacted me in 2009.
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Steve, your last picture of the three - a few posts above - the left front corner of the gas tank appears to have a "dimple". Is this a tank drain? My car is also a 2D and my tank, to the best of my knowledge, is original (I bought my car with 57k in '77, no reason to suspect it's replacement). It has this drain, which I am very curious about.
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Steve, your last picture of the three - a few posts above - the left front corner of the gas tank appears to have a "dimple". Is this a tank drain? My car is also a 2D and my tank, to the best of my knowledge, is original (I bought my car with 57k in '77, no reason to suspect it's replacement). It has this drain, which I am very curious about.
That is just a dent. I haven't verified the tank date. I suggest that you verify the tank date. The drain may have been added at some point, but not from the factory.
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I can't get enough of these survivor cars! Thanks Steve. Beautiful car.
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I take it that exhaust is a replacement and possibly a Gardner?
Mike
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I can't get enough of these survivor cars! Thanks Steve. Beautiful car.
Same here. Thoroughly enjoy them!
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I take it that exhaust is a replacement and possibly a Gardner?
Mike
Yes it's a Gardner exhaust. The exhaust that was on the car was a worn out replacement walker system.
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Steve, your last picture of the three - a few posts above - the left front corner of the gas tank appears to have a "dimple". Is this a tank drain? My car is also a 2D and my tank, to the best of my knowledge, is original (I bought my car with 57k in '77, no reason to suspect it's replacement). It has this drain, which I am very curious about.
That is just a dent. I haven't verified the tank date. I suggest that you verify the tank date. The drain may have been added at some point, but not from the factory.
I've got pics t post of my tank date and the drain, I'll find the thread and get them on this weekend the tank is dated 28 69
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OK, back to Steves great car!
I assume since the radio, was mentioned as a dealer install, they would have had to drill the fender, wire up the speaker, and install the deck. I also assume the original owner brought the vehicle back for the motor bracket and cable, for the recall. Just curious since I have a large stack of my own invoices, if the original owner made continual visits to the dealership on a regular basis to see the car stayed in tip top shape or if it sat parked for a long duration of time? It seems that most of these original cars fall into one of these categories.
The radio was installed by the dealer and is listed as added on the invoice for $61.10. Interestingly enough it is a Motorola radio, that looks almost identical to the Delco. The radio brace was installed and the speaker is also similar. I wonder if there was some kit available. Regarding the antenna the dealer installed that as well.
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Steve. Wondering what front spring tags were on this car?
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I have the car in Az. When I get back down there I will try to look.
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3955720
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Thanks a lot Charley!