CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: 6672DRIVER on May 31, 2016, 03:24:23 AM
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Recently purchased a '69 RS/SS original 350 engine with automatic trans (not original).
I have no documentation on the car, and would like to determine if the car would have come with factory console gauges or not. It currently does have the console gauges.
What should I be looking for?
Gary
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I had a discussion about this recently with William and learned a couple of interesting things.
I was told the oil line location through the firewall is a biggy. Usually never put in the right spot with the correct rubber grommet when gauges are added.
I'd also be looking close at the wiring harness. Factory gauge cars, like mine, and as I've been told by a couple of smart people here, should have cloth covering on both coil wires. An odd clue I had not heard until recently. Reproduction wire harnesses don't come with it.....I tried. I'd be crawling under the dash as well and checking the console and dash harness connections for obvious monkey business.
Of course as everyone knows it should have a clock as well, so many conversions done without.
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I believe that if the console guages are factory you should have a clock in the instrument cluster in the center just above the steering column.
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Firewall penetration location for the oil line seems to vary between LOS and NOR, worth pointing out.
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I had a discussion about this recently with William and learned a couple of interesting things.
I was told the oil line location through the firewall is a biggy. Usually never put in the right spot with the correct rubber grommet when gauges are added.
I'd also be looking close at the wiring harness. Factory gauge cars, like mine, and as I've been told by a couple of smart people here, should have cloth covering on both coil wires. An odd clue I had not heard until recently. Reproduction wire harnesses don't come with it.....I tried. I'd be crawling under the dash as well and checking the console and dash harness connections for obvious monkey business.
Of course as everyone knows it should have a clock as well, so many conversions done without.
This is exactly how I determined the gauges were NOT original on my '67. Even though they are original gauges from another car and a correct gauge option speedo/tach cluster from another car was added (prior to 1982) to make it all seem factory installed, the oil pressure line was routed through the firewall behind the master cylinder. The dash harness connections are not quite right either.
Edit: I went back and found the thread of this issue on TC to refresh my memory. If you're interested, here it is: http://www.camaros.net/forums/34-restoration-corner/259425-oil-pressure-line-console-gauge.html
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On a car that came with gauges, there should be a warning light in the dash cluster that says "FUEL". This was for the low fuel warning system.
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additionally, another small feature is checking the console itself. Look for the cutout on the lower front half of the console, and check the lower console mounting bracket to see if the guage wiring harness bracket and plug socket are there.
If these two items are not there, guages were probably added to a non guage console. Probably a good indicator to start looking elsewhere.
Bryan
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On a car that came with gauges, there should be a warning light in the dash cluster that says "FUEL". This was for the low fuel warning system.
Would this be on a console gauge car only or could it have been with the dash fuel gauge? I know mine has it because it has factory console gauges, but I didn't realize it couldn't be with the dash fuel gauge too.
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Bryan,
Have any pictures of what you are describing with the console?
On the low fuel warning light, it's present on all dash clusters, but it's only wired up and functional when U17 was ordered. That's the only way I've seen them anyway.
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One possible easy check is to see if the green wire from the temp gauge to the sending unit actually goes through the bulkhead/fuse block connector.
This isn't full proof. I added console gauges to my '69 RS 20 years ago. When I first installed them, I ran the temp gauge wire through and available hole in the firewall just to get it into the engine compartment. In 2004/2005 when the front of the car was disassembled, I re-routed that wire to the proper terminal on both sides of the fuse block/bulkhead connector.
Easy enough to do with the engine, master cylinder, and brake booster out of the way. With everything in place, it would be a daunting task, at least for me, to say the least. I would imagine most folks who aren't concerned about "doing it the way the factory did" would simply do the same thing that I did originally - run the temp gauge wire out through an available hole instead of trying to make the bulkhead connection in the engine compartment with the engine, master cylinder, and brake booster (if applicable) in place.
Richard
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X33RS, the closest I can get you is the 69 AIM, U17 A2, page 415, (upper left sketch, where the "A" arrow is pointing). At the very front lower half of the console is a horseshoe shaped cut out. Non guage consoles do not have this cut out. Secondly, the front floor mount bracket has a extra u shaped bracket spot welded to the floor bracket for the guage wiring harness. Naturally, the non guage consoles don't have this extra edition spot welded to the front mounting bracket.
I meant to ask about this earlier, but forgot. Would the broadcast code sticker on the underside of the guages not be a good way to determine the originality. If the codes were different, then suspicion would be building.
Sorry about the lack of photo's, SOL in that dept.
Bryan
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The console bottom and the bracket was discussed a while ago on the Team Camaro site. Might want to have a read of this thread:
http://www.camaros.net/forums/133-build-projects/182584-time-another-68-z-28-restored-69.html#post3333057
Bob
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Here's a couple pics of the console bottom and original wiring as well as the low fuel light that I just took:
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q573/SgtHawkUSMC/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Assembly/Interior%20Assembly/Dash/IMG_20160601_070505.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/SgtHawkUSMC/media/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Assembly/Interior%20Assembly/Dash/IMG_20160601_070505.jpg.html)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q573/SgtHawkUSMC/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Interior/Console/IMG_20160411_170657.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/SgtHawkUSMC/media/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Interior/Console/IMG_20160411_170657.jpg.html)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q573/SgtHawkUSMC/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Interior/Console/IMG_20160523_185109.jpg) (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/SgtHawkUSMC/media/69%20Camaro%20SS396%20L34/69%20Interior/Console/IMG_20160523_185109.jpg.html)
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Nice suggestions but I removed, intact, several dash & console gauge set ups out of factory built cars back in the day. All the wiring also.
If the car receiving the set up was built with a console and it was installed correctly no one would know.
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Thanks Bryan, I had a look in the AIM. Between that and remembering mine being apart a few weeks ago, I know exactly what you mean.
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additionally, another small feature is checking the console itself. Look for the cutout on the lower front half of the console, and check the lower console mounting bracket to see if the guage wiring harness bracket and plug socket are there.
An interesting point was raised on the console bases and wiring harness details in the AIM by Chick during his 68Z build thread over at Team Camaro. The theory is that no '68 consoles had a cutout in the front, nor a console bracket with the harness clip, but that in '69, all brackets had the harness connector clip, and a forward cutout. This is irrespective of the console having gauges or not.
Since that was raised as a possible theory, I have looked at every 68-69 console on eBay, CL and at swap meets, and have never seen a 68 console (off-white plastic, viewed from beneath) with a cutout, nor a 69 (black plastic) without a cutout.
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I never realized it was a question.
I know that as the difference between 68 and 69 parts.
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I never realized it was a question.
I know that as the difference between 68 and 69 parts.
The 68 vs 69 console details? Good to know that is indeed a confirmed difference then, thanks Kurt!
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additionally, another small feature is checking the console itself. Look for the cutout on the lower front half of the console, and check the lower console mounting bracket to see if the guage wiring harness bracket and plug socket are there.
An interesting point was raised on the console bases and wiring harness details in the AIM by Chick during his 68Z build thread over at Team Camaro. The theory is that no '68 consoles had a cutout in the front, nor a console bracket with the harness clip, but that in '69, all brackets had the harness connector clip, and a forward cutout. This is irrespective of the console having gauges or not.
Since that was raised as a possible theory, I have looked at every 68-69 console on eBay, CL and at swap meets, and have never seen a 68 console (off-white plastic, viewed from beneath) with a cutout, nor a 69 (black plastic) without a cutout.
Yep, and the console plate that holds the seat belts for the shoulder harness is painted black. :)