CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: HOT3O2 on May 28, 2016, 01:53:08 PM
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On one of the other Camaro sites a member made the statement that he would take a 69 Z/28 with Canadian documentation and without the original engine over a 69 Z/28 with the original engine and no documentation. I know that there's a lot of re-stamping going on in our hobby and you have to be very diligent when thinking of purchasing one of these cars but this comment just didn't make sense to me. If I was looking at a car to buy and I posted good readable pic's of the drive train stamping and the experts on this site gave me the thumbs up I wouldn't hesitate to buy it even if it didn't have any doc's. I know there are many of us that have these cars and know for a fact that they are original but lack documentation. But does it make that big of difference? I was just curios as to how the other members on here feel.
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I don't know much about Canadian documents, but one must remember that documents can be (and are) faked as well as drivetrain stampings and cowl plates. Personally, I feel very confident in my ability to detect fake/suspicious stampings versus original stampings (with factory broach marks on the pad), so I would *prefer* have an original car with original documents, but if I had to choose, I'd choose a 'factory original' car with clearly factory components w/o documents, over a 'restored car' with 'canadian or other' documents.
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Thanks Gary. I have the same feeling. I was just really confused with this statement and thought I was missing something. The bottom line is you have to make sure you do your home work. And this site sure helps out.
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I did not read the other site's post were that statement was made, but I would think the supposition would be comparing two cars equal in all other aspects. Gary, you seem to have "muddied " that reply by comparing an untouched original ( w/out paper) vs. a restored (w/paper),IMO.
The only thing I can think of were the documented non OE drivetrain trumps the other is in ease of selling. It is easier to just flop out a paper and say, see, it is real 'cause the paper says so as opposed to going through a lot of vetting by others (particularly if one buying is not well versed in authenticating) to insure the car is what is claimed.
This is not as much a concern to the avg. CRGer because, 1) they generally view the car they are buying as a keeper and not selling(but we never know what tomorrow may hold?) ,2) our confidence in our own authentication abilities and knowing who and what to ask gives the avg. CRGer an edge in not having to have a piece of paper to prove what we already know. Kind of reminds me of a college degree. I knew I knew what I knew, but an employer needed that paper as reassurance. Same with a dog. You can witness 2 of the same breed w/papers, I'll ad, sire a litter. You know the litter is pure bred, but without papers, no one else will know? So, it comes down to one's own confidence and one's purpose (not intending to sell) IMO.
Personally, because of my own level of knowledge, a born with drive train is more desirable than non B.with, An Untampered with (engine never been apart) even better, long ownership with early pics and history, even better! So, lots and lots of factors to an enthusiast over someone only concerned with can they unload it if needed.
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I have a good friend that was looking at 68z28 missing the engine. He did a tittle search in Tennessee before the privacy act and got copy of the original dealer invoice plus copy of MSO and copy of the all the previous owner to prove his car was real z28. This invoice was the dealer invoice in there print not like the invoice you can buy from Camaro parts place. It also comes certified from the state. I see both sides on the issue since there are so many clones out there. But when you have a car that is missing it block. It is nice to have the paper work he has to display at a show. I have a hard time trusting the invoice you can buy from Camaro parts stores. But his is iron clad. I also did it on my car which is cool because I still every once a while to first owner and other owners.
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I did not read the other site's post were that statement was made, but I would think the supposition would be comparing two cars equal in all other aspects. Gary, you seem to have "muddied " that reply by comparing an untouched original ( w/out paper) vs. a restored (w/paper),IMO.
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No intention to 'muddy' the waters, Bryon.. just trying reinforce that even with 'an original appearing' engine (ie. restamped, restored, etc) the 'papers (Canadian or not) wouldn't mean as much to me as my own evaluation of the originality of the car.. Many (most) of the 'restored' Z28s I have seen do not have very many of the 'original parts'.. whether those cars have canadian papers or not mean little to me. Having an original PTP means something to me, IF it can be assured that it is original, but only because it lists the original stampings on the engine, trans, rear...
PS> The original poster was comparing a 'Z28 with canadians docs, BUT NOT the original engine', with a an original Z28 with the original engine, but WITHOUT paperwork.. implying they placed more importance on the paperwork than the original parts (OR possibly meaning they had no capability to determine if the original parts were actually original or not, but given that I'd suggest that person could also not ascertain if the documentation was original or not!).
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Faking the engine is easier than faking the Canadian documentation.
I believe there is enough knowledge about what is correct and what is not, that an engine can be faked and still pass the most rigorous inspection.
Especially with the 69 having the VIN in the rough cast area, all you need to do is find an original DZ with appropriate dates.
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Faking the engine is easier than faking the Canadian documentation.
X2... The documents thenselves can be faked/forged but a potential purchaser can order up their own copy of the Canadian Docs for verification. I was able to get the Canadian docs for my Z and I also had Jerry M verify the car. When I sold it at BJ I really played up the fact that I had both and I got a strong price.
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Huh? There is much more to faking a Z than a block. If you are starting with a real Z in the first place without the original block and trying only to fake the block only, you "might" be able to to find another DZ block with the correct dating and no visible VIN. (Would have to be a later block with VIN by oil filter that is unreadable) Better have numbers/date matching heads, intake, dist, alt, water pump, exhaust manifolds, muncie, hurst, rear axle, and a slew of other parts, detail items, and characteristics which only apply to a Z.
Canadian doc's might prove the car was originally a Z. Do nothing to indicate how much of the original Z is left today. ZL1 #1 is documented. About the only thing left of the original #1 ZL1 is the VIN.
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(I believe there is enough knowledge about what is correct and what is not, that an engine can be faked and still pass the most rigorous inspection.)
What does every one else think about this comment? I don't believe I've heard any of the core people on this site say anything this scary when it comes to engine stamps. So are you saying that having an expert verify a car is a waste of money? I wouldn't hesitate having Jerry verify my car. I don't have a POP or Canadian Doc's. But I could still sleep at night know my car's authentic just having Jerry's report. It gives a lot more information too.
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(I believe there is enough knowledge about what is correct and what is not, that an engine can be faked and still pass the most rigorous inspection.)
What does every one else think about this comment? I don't believe I've heard any of the core people on this site say anything this scary when it comes to engine stamps. So are you saying that having an expert verify a car is a waste of money? I wouldn't hesitate having Jerry verify my car. I don't have a POP or Canadian Doc's. But I could still sleep at night know my car's authentic just having Jerry's report. It gives a lot more information too.
I don't go along with that statement above... that sufficient information exists to 'fake' a car to fool even the most rigorous inspections... I think I've looked/inspected enough *real* engines (and several faked ones) over the past 40+ years, that I think I can tell the difference...
If the statement were true, it would cost the faker MORE $$ than he would be recompensed for at sale.. and personally, if I couldn't verify to my own satisfaction that it was 'real'.. then I wouldn't buy it.. (and I don't really care what anyone else thinks about it, documentation or not... :) )
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I agree with you 100% Gary. We've been around these cars long enough. In fact I see you've owned your car since April 76. I bought mine May 6, 1976. Hard to believe we've owned our Camaros for 40 years. Dam I'm feeling old now.
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While original paperwork is neat, I've never banked all that much on it when it comes to the 69's. Stick to the Dec 68 and later Norwood build dates with X codes and you'll know what you're getting without the paperwork. It's pretty easy to spot the fake tags they make nowadays, and pretty easy to tell if it's been fiddled with (moved from one car to another) Check the vins and go from there.
As long as that is 100%, you know you at least have a Z regardless of paperwork. In a case like this I don't feel original paperwork does too much for value, other than maybe give someone a little more piece of mind that isn't knowledgeable about data plates.
From there it's just a matter of whether a matching drivetrain is your thing or not, and that's easy enough to verify.
If it pleased someone, and you know you have a real data plate that was born with that car, then have Jerry certify it. That paperwork alone has seemed to be enough to satisfy most everyone looking to buy, so yes I agree with you Hot302, when it comes to paperwork, really the documentation process through Jerry is enough if you feel you really need it.
The only reason I even bought mine is because I knew the data plate was real and the car was original, didn't really care at the time if it had paperwork or not, and still don't really. If a day ever came I needed to sell it, I'd just have Jerry come over and document it, no biggy.
On the other hand, if we are talking about 68's or early 69's before the X codes, or a Van Nuys built 69, then paperwork is almost a must have. You really have to do your homework.
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The various debates could rage on for ever. For example, I would prefer a NOM Z/28, L78, SS350 etc with 100% original sheet metal and all GM parts than a verified, documented, certified born-with drivetrain car that has been restored with a lot of reproduction parts on it. But that's just my choice, value of the car in each scenario is irrelevant.
Many armchair experts have been proven wrong or fooled over the decades, faking is nothing new but has improved a lot in recent years. I have no doubt some top-shelf 'verified' cars have a skeleton or two in the closet.
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I don't know much about Canadian documents, but one must remember that documents can be (and are) faked
If someone didn`t like or didn`t trust my `Canadian documents` in hand as real - assuming I was selling it, all I would have them do to put their mind at ease would be to give them George Zapora`s number or someone else at GM Vintage services. Then they could get it validated over the phone (if they still do that - as he confirmed my car for me as a Z28 model from the VIN, prior to my buying the car some 26 years ago) or for a prospective and serious buyer, the relatively small fee of $100 gets them the documentation package so they themselves can read it and check the car and the as delivered options against what they are looking at..
Unless they don`t trust GM itself, I can`t think of a better way to put a prospective buyer at ease with such a purchase... But that's just my own personal opinion.. Randy
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I don't know much about Canadian documents, but one must remember that documents can be (and are) faked
If someone didn`t like or didn`t trust my `Canadian documents` in hand as real - assuming I was selling it, all I would have them do to put their mind at ease would be to give them George Zapora`s number or someone else at GM Vintage services. Then they could get it validated over the phone (if they still do that - as he confirmed my car for me as a Z28 model from the VIN, prior to my buying the car some 26 years ago) or for a prospective and serious buyer, the relatively small fee of $100 gets them the documentation package so they themselves can read it and check the car and the as delivered options against what they are looking at..
Unless they don`t trust GM itself, I can`t think of a better way to put a prospective buyer at ease with such a purchase... But that's just my own personal opinion.. Randy
I agree Randy....the Can Doc's are/ were a great paper trail to have on the Authenticity of a Car....not sure how that plays out today as the last time I checked the Can GM Vintage Services......I noticed that George has gone on his own now...George is a great guy and a straight shooter, I had a 69 that we always thought was a US sold Car, when I called George he said send in the VIN and if its not a Can Car...no charge, I was surprised to find out that it was a Can sold car so he sent in the paper work with a nice package, all for 50 bucks back then....not sure how it works now as it looks like he went on his own, I could be wrong....I believe George frequents this site, perhaps he can verify....I agree with everyone else as well, that nowadays, we are better informed on the First Gens today than I when I first got into the Hobby.....I love Original Cars but today for some reason, the plain Jane Coupes appeal to just as much or more because every 69 Camaro at the Cruise nights is an SS or a Z/28....out of 10 in the Lot...1 may be a real one....this Forum has really opened my Eyes ever since I joined...and I still learn new things today about these Cars
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On the other hand, if we are talking about 68's or early 69's before the X codes, or a Van Nuys built 69, then paperwork is almost a must have. You really have to do your homework.
FYI I have an early 69 Z, Oct 68 Norwood build, and it has an X code. Just not on the trim tag.
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That's one of the many examples of what I meant about doing your homework. Most aren't aware of grease pencil X codes on the bulk head. As more of that gets out we really have to be cautious of things like that being very easily duplicated.
The data plates are still pretty concrete though at this point. Easy to spot a fake, or rivets being tampered with raises a red flag. For safety sake I stick to those cars. Without that you really have to scrutinize, and without original paperwork there are no guarantees.
It's kind of nice actually that Norwood Camaros started doing that making them easier to document. Ford and Pontiac (depending on year) almost always had something in their vins that denoted the car as what it is, (for instance 242 in the vin and you know you're looking at a real GTO) and with Marty and PHS, they are easy (and cheap) to obtain paperwork so they have a huge advantage on the collectability market. Chevy has always been lacking in that department. With a data plate that tells little to nothing and a vin that is useless up through 1971, that's where original paperwork pays dividends.
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While original paperwork is neat, I've never banked all that much on it when it comes to the 69's. Stick to the Dec 68 and later Norwood build dates with X codes and you'll know what you're getting without the paperwork.
How about '69 Van Nuys built Camaros with a legible Chassis Broadcast copy, highlighting the build config and options? ;)
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Canadian documents are great, but entire cars have been built around documents. From the VIN tag on up. It's rare to have that happen, but I have read about it happening with very high value cars.
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There have been attempts to fake about every type of document or stamp. Few if any can past a pass a test of those knowledgable in the field. Ask others if they think something is genuine or not - if you aren't sure. It's best to look at EVERYTHING.
Paperwork should match what is on the car, and if it doesn't, then put on your "detective hat" and figure out what is wrong. The higher the price, the more you should scrutinize things.
Nothing gets me more upset than someone trying to deceive others about these cars.
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Most, if not all of us, here on this site agree 100% with your sentiments on this Bryon!
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While original paperwork is neat, I've never banked all that much on it when it comes to the 69's. Stick to the Dec 68 and later Norwood build dates with X codes and you'll know what you're getting without the paperwork.
How about '69 Van Nuys built Camaros with a legible Chassis Broadcast copy, highlighting the build config and options? ;)
Yup that would be one possible piece of original paperwork, a good thing with a Van Nuys car. If that were lost over the years though and nothing but the sellers word.....then like Bryon says, put on your detective hat because the data plate won't tell you anything.
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Interesting debate, I live in Canada and had/have lots of opportunity to buy Canadian GM documented cars without OE engines, trans etc. The last two Z's I have purchased were out of the US, both numbers matching and with original paperwork. For me getting a numbers matching car with documentation made more sense than buying something with GM Canada docs and no OE drivelines. I agree the GM Canada docs are pretty much bullet proof but human nature is not....Re-bodied cars and other funky stuff people do to make money happens all the time. A few years ago I checked out a '69Z with GM Canada docs, was a rare car as it had an unusual color combo, upon my inspection I found a fake trim tag and the vin plate on dash did not have the original rivets...but the owner was bragging about the GM Canada docs, I left the car where it sat and apparently it was sold to an unsuspecting buyer who bought into that hype of GM Canada docs.
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YOU clarified the situation very well!! ie. Docs are nice, but you still have to do your homework!! Thanks for your input.. :)
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The reproduction window stickers are horrible, there has never NEVER been a fully correctly coded repro window sticker, the ECL codes in 1969 are a nightmare for forgers.
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James, I would bet you intended that post for the 'window sticker' discussion, rather than the canadian docs thread?? :)