CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: 69Z28-RS on April 11, 2016, 03:57:58 AM
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While wandering thru the vendors and car corral at Charlotte motorspeedway this weekend (AutoFair), I came across a '68 Z28 for sale and stopped to take a look and a few pix, also a discussion with the owner. He okayed me to post his information and photos here in case someone is interested enough to contact him (and assuming he didn't sell it there this weekend).
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more photos
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more photos
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cowl tag
Huh??? Really, Gary ?? Little too much "strawberry flavored white lightning" this morn???
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Bentley! YOU WON!!! :) That was obviously a test.. to see who would be the first to catch that photo... :)
What did you win? You get to now see the correct photo of the cowl tag.. :)
PSST: Sorry about that .. :) I searched for the 'name'.. and posted it (late at night).. and obviously didn't proofread that post very well... maybe I needed a little of that lightning! :) I've asked the moderators to delete that incorrect photo...
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he just had to add some orange
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Sorry fellas... I need to quit posting late at night after my eyes quit working.. :) .. but a little orange never hurt anyone.. did it?? :)
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Last I knew, he was asking $110K for it.
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His price Saturday was $85K ....
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Wow, you'd think that was a 69 or something ;D
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Much rarer than a 69. :)
Bordering on a for sale ad, which would not be allowed. But I realize you are not the seller Gary.
So it is a - - paint, but was the color listed?
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Much rarer than a 69. :)
Yup! :)
VIN: 124378N453170
Engine pad stamped: 18N453170 V0531MO
Paul
Blue Hole, Ocho Rios, Jamaica
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Interesting. More rare than a 69, numbers wise, but as we all know rare doesn't always mean more money, which I believe is the case here.
So was the color it was being shown in, the original paint, or thought to be the original color picked by the original buyer?
I like the cowl induction, but would ditch the passenger side mirror, personally. I am also guessing the rear spoiler was added because of the paint on the deck lid.
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Much rarer than a 69. :)
Bordering on a for sale ad, which would not be allowed. But I realize you are not the seller Gary.
So it is a - - paint, but was the color listed?
No, I listed this information here for *our members who might be interested*, rather than for the seller. I once owned a '68 Z28, but so long ago I can't remember what all I once knew about it.. :)
I thought it was a nice car, although I wasn't certain over the engine stamping (broach marks weren't visible, so it had been surfaced?, but possibly the engine is original). I couldn't see the cast marks/date, although the owner said the engine was original, and the trans/rear were factory original. The color ON the car was a light blue (nice color); owner said it had been repainted one time. Another thing he said that didn't sound right to me was about the spare tire (a 14")... he said it was original... I don't think I believe that, but maybe you fellas can straighten one of us out? :)
He had the original exhaust manifolds lying in the trunk, which he said were removed day 1 to install 'factory supplied' headers...
There WAS a lot to like about the car. If anyone is interested enough to contact him, I have his contact info.. Just let me know you want it.
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Much rarer than a 69. :)
Bordering on a for sale ad, which would not be allowed. But I realize you are not the seller Gary.
So it is a - - paint, but was the color listed?
Bryon, I'm curious...
How is posting photos/data from a car for sale at a show different from posting data about cars for sale on ebay or craigslist, etc?? Doesn't all of this information help/enhance the information/knowledge we have on first gen camaros?
I, and perhaps the owner, who told me he sometimes accesses this site, were expecting knowledgable opinions on the accuracy of the information available on this car. In particular, he was under the impression that the car was delivered with 'headers in the trunk', and a 14" spare tire... Did that happen for '68 model Z28s?
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Paul, are you on vacation or something? Ocho Rios?
Gary, you came to Autofair and did not come by to see me at the AACA tent? I barely got out of the Fan Fair area all week... :'( Only rode a cart around the corral once...
There were a lot of Camaros in the Car Corral and in the AACA show. I asked the guys at the DMV desk on Friday if many cars were selling. They said, "No". But as you alluded, more cars sell on Saturday as the prices come down.
There was a white 68 with black vinyl top and stripes with a killer pain job in the Orange field.
Sorry, no pictures.
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Much rarer than a 69. :)
Bordering on a for sale ad, which would not be allowed. But I realize you are not the seller Gary.
So it is a - - paint, but was the color listed?
I thought it was a sale ad! What else would you call it? If it is OK I have a friend who has a 69 Z for sale and I will add pictures just in case someone is interested.
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I like the idea of posting links to ads, to help potential buyers on this site. As long as we can discuss the pros and cons of each car. If someone sees a car outside the internet first hand and can be our eyes out there, so much the better. I figure Gary or (our members) wasn't trying to mislead us by taking pics from certain angles to hide damage, the way some eBay dealers do.
I think a open conversation about such cars and investigation, may help. Say this car appears again for sale in the future and has some different options or different story from what is presented currently. I think gaining the knowledge when we can about these cars, would ad to the data base and protect our community.
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Paul, are you on vacation or something? Ocho Rios?
Gary, you came to Autofair and did not come by to see me at the AACA tent? I barely got out of the Fan Fair area all week... :'( Only rode a cart around the corral once...
There were a lot of Camaros in the Car Corral and in the AACA show. I asked the guys at the DMV desk on Friday if many cars were selling. They said, "No". But as you alluded, more cars sell on Saturday as the prices come down.
There was a white 68 with black vinyl top and stripes with a killer pain job in the Orange field.
Sorry, no pictures.
Sorry Phillip, I did want to come by and see you and say Hi, but I was SO LOST the whole 2.5 days we spent there.. the changes they've made since my last time there made it like I was there for the first time all over again... wandering.. :)
I didn't see 1/4 of the vendor spots.. and maybe 1/3 of the corrall cars.. and NONE of the show cars.. :(
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Gary, I will make a longer post with links in the morning.
Headers were an option in 68 and would be in the trunk when sold new. 14 inch wheel as a spare doesn't seem correct.
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Much rarer than a 69. :)
Bordering on a for sale ad, which would not be allowed. But I realize you are not the seller Gary.
So it is a - - paint, but was the color listed?
I thought it was a sale ad! What else would you call it? If it is OK I have a friend who has a 69 Z for sale and I will add pictures just in case someone is interested.
Chick, Yes, if you have a friend who has a '69 Z28 for sale... I (for one, and I suspect other '69 Z28 fans) would LOVE to see the pix and hear your description of the car (from your perspective, not that of the seller)... Re the '68, I thought it appeared to be a good car that a '68 Z28 fan would love to see and hear about, and I was hoping the '68 Z28 experts on here would clarify a few of the questions that I had re this car. although I liked it, I had some questions about it myself, although no one has yet responded re those questions...
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Gary, I will make a longer post with links in the morning.
Headers were an option in 68 and would be in the trunk when sold new. 14 inch wheel as a spare doesn't seem correct.
Thanks Bryon, I didn't think the 14" spare tire remark he made was correct, and although I questioned him on it, I was not 'absolutely certain' enough to suggest that he was wrong; like most people, I'm sure he was mostly quoting what he was told when he purchased the car; and I couldn't recall exactly when the 'header in the trunk' option was removed from the list. Could you tell from the photo if the headers on that car were the factory ones.. or not? What did you fellas think of the stamp pad and stamp? (my tendency is to disbelieve when I can't see the factory broach marks)
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RPO Z28-3 in 67 and 68 is for exhaust headers. RPO Z28-4 is for exhaust headers and cowl plenum. I am not sure if they were available that late in the year though. I know a VERY late car that did have headers in the trunk originally.
I will take a closer look at the engine stamp later.
Gary, your 68 Z28 was blue. Lemans Blue. :D
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Good info, but how do you document a RPO Z28-3 or RPO Z28-4, as far as the headers and cowl induction when no paperwork is present?
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Proving without docs would be very difficult in my opinion.
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Gary, your 68 Z28 was blue. Lemans Blue. :D
:) :) Yes.. I Do remember that much -with white stripes even.. I also remember it had a minimum of options.. :) :) and I wish I'd owned a better camera back then.. and had some decent photos.. :)
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I personally don't want to go down the path of posting cars that are for sale. That's not what the site is about, IMO.
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His price Saturday was $85K ....
That seems like really steep money for a car in need of paint and alot of other stuff.
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Kurt,
This particular car *happened* to be for sale when I saw it, but my reason for posting the photos was to get comments and opinions from the experts here on some aspects of the car. My purpose was NOT to help the owner sell the car; I didn't list the sale details in my post.
Does a car 'being for sale', prohibit our using it for improving our knowledge base here?
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Yeah I thought so Charley, and for a 68 no less ;D
I saw a 69 Z at a show over the weekend, a real one for a change and for sale. Norwood X33 March build. Rally green, black standard interior. Nice car but it needed a lot. Smog missing, wrong pulleys, exhaust needed work, aftermarket wheels, and some other details needed attention, and they were asking $80k for that one, it wasn't an RS either. EEEK!!! To me that's approaching concours money and this car was FAR from that. It needed another $20-$30k worth of corrections.
I think some people are just fishing around to see what the market bears.
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I think some people are just fishing around to see what the market bears.
I would agree with that. It seems like there is such a big range that the cars will sell for, why not aim high? Some of these guys I think put the high price just to avoid the "is it for sale" question, while others start high and figure they can come down a little and if they need to negotiate. I sometimes wonder how much knowledge the sellers really have? Are they putting up a high figure just so they feels safe, and have no idea what they go for. Perhaps they have seen so many copies or clones they have tacked on a hefty sum, because they know it is a real car.
The 68 Z in the beginning of this post is nice, but as Charley mentioned it is more of a driver. I feel for the guys with 67 & 68 Z cars when they go to sell them, because the market for those cars varies even more, since less of them come to market, and the ones that do seem to be on the market for quite a while because the seller is holding out for top dollar or asking a high pre 2007 price for them. For me a nice 67 or 68 Z (numbers car) should be priced similar to a 69 Z, (50-69k), but I would say 99% of time they are priced at a 75- 150k price range, and I don't see any of them move in that price range, unless you do some heavy marketing and have it at BJ, Mecum or high end auction, maybe you have a chance to win the big money you have the right 2 guys in the room?( or the 1 in-experienced guy Vs. the auction house)
Just my 2 cents
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Gary, here are a couple of links...and the headers were pricey.
http://www.camaros.org/model.shtml#Z28
http://www.camaros.org/pdf/options.pdf
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Thanks Bryon,
I should have visited the *Options* page in the CRG archives first.. :)
The following statement from the first link makes it seem both were available for the complete '67/68 years..?
"In the first two years, a cowl plenum air cleaner and/or headers were available as part of RPO Z28."
PS. ... saying 'as part of' makes it seem they were included with Z28 option; whereas weren't they really available (with Z28) as separate options?
Better wording?? "For the '67 and '68 model years, options for 1) cowl plenum air cleaner and 2) headers were available separately or in combination, only if RPO Z28 was also included."
... and yes, they were expensive... but a bit less so if you ordered both.. :) in fact, if one of those options were desired, I'd guess most ordered both as adding cowl induction only added $65 to the headers only list price?
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It appears that headers and cowl plenum may have been deleted as additions to Z28 - before the end of the model year.
In the 1968 AIM, there are revisions/changes on 3-5-68 that say "SPL. EXHAUST REMOVED" and "SPL. EXH. WITH PLENUM AIR REMOVED".
Exactly when that change went into effect is not known.
William posted this information on the TC site years ago.
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If those options were removed from the options list in March, then the June car under discussion didn't come from the factory with them; they would have been added later in the car's life...?
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Did the car have docs? With the apparent low miles I would hope so.
There are a few people that could probably tell if the cowl plenum and headers are original, but not with 100 percent certainty without docs.
Like I said earlier though. there is a very late car that I am pretty sure had factory headers.
Can't tell from the pics posted about whether the headers may be original or not. Cowl plenum was available through the parts department. I remember one 69 that had a cowl plenum installed, later by the first owner after he bought the parts.
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Kurt,
This particular car *happened* to be for sale when I saw it, but my reason for posting the photos was to get comments and opinions from the experts here on some aspects of the car. My purpose was NOT to help the owner sell the car; I didn't list the sale details in my post.
Does a car 'being for sale', prohibit our using it for improving our knowledge base here?
I was specifically addressing the comments on posting other cars for sale.
>If it is OK I have a friend who has a 69 Z for sale and I will add pictures just in case someone is interested.
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Did the car have docs? With the apparent low miles I would hope so.
There are a few people that could probably tell if the cowl plenum and headers are original, but not with 100 percent certainty without docs.
Like I said earlier though. there is a very late car that I am pretty sure had factory headers.
Can't tell from the pics posted about whether the headers may be original or not. Cowl plenum was available through the parts department. I remember one 69 that had a cowl plenum installed, later by the first owner after he bought the parts.
Nice car! But if that stuff was original it sure was changed during its life. Cowl plenum not painted correctly, sticker was not on originally, and does not have indent for smog pump that 68's had so IMO that did not come from the factory. It also appears that car had a long ago restoration as many parts are not correct or original to car. Engine compartment is full of mistakes and agree 100% with Charlie as that price is steep for a nice 68Z driver. Engine pad looks fine to me so that is a good note. I have pictures of original headers and this is a picture of a reproduction set that Larry Christensen had copies made from originals.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/100_5688_zps8jrrccop.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/100_5688_zps8jrrccop.jpg.html)
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Nice Z - wish I could have seen it in person.
650 + cars from my '68 Z - could have been same day. Often wondered how many Z's and other high optioned cars got grouped together coming down the production lines - a few, or any ?
Regards,
Steve
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The fan shroud is a later service replacement. The bottom one in the picture is an original.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/OrigBottom%20vs%20ServReplacement_zpsjfqxrrp0.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/OrigBottom%20vs%20ServReplacement_zpsjfqxrrp0.jpg.html)
Jon Mello had posted this picture some time ago of an original NOS 68 plenum air cleaner. Ones with the indent are much harder to obtain than the 67 and most service replacement types. Note original air cowl plenums were painted assemblies so the rubber sleeve was painted also. The original plenum assembly that came with our 68 was a painted assembly also. They were a gloss black!
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/Plenum68-1_zpsvmfblvhj.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Engine%20Related/Plenum68-1_zpsvmfblvhj.jpg.html)
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nice. I bet those are some expensive rare pieces... :)
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Another thing he said that didn't sound right to me was about the spare tire (a 14")... he said it was original... I don't think I believe that, but maybe you fellas can straighten one of us out? :)
You're correct, Gary. A '68 Z28 should have left the factory with a 15x6 "DF" coded rally wheel (spare) in the trunk.
Paul
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Paul, are you on vacation or something? Ocho Rios?
Ya Man! And it was great to be able to scuba dive without a wet suit. Got to love the Caribbean water! :)
Paul