CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: MyRed67 on February 24, 2016, 11:22:28 PM
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I am on Mecum's e-mail list, received this today. Black on Black with White stripes original '67 Z-28 / RS going to auction in Kansas City in Mar.
https://www.mecum.com/lot-detail/KA0316-235867/0/1967-Chevrolet-Camaro-RS-Z28/4-Speed/?utm_source=emv&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=KA0316-S124
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Sweet! :)
Paul
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Nice car.
But it originally was gold and was a L30/M35 and had a POP.
124377L138001
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So that whole impressive accolade writeup is pure BS then?
And I am a Felix the Cat fan! :'(
Maybe someone should notify Mecum if this is fraud.
Mike
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Nice car.
But it originally was gold and was a L30/M35 and had a POP.
124377L138001
Not sweet! :(
CRG to the rescue, again! That explains why there's no JM certification like many of the Mecum Camaros.
Paul
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I just sent them a message that they need to investigate the car closer..
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Nice car.
But it originally was gold and was a L30/M35 and had a POP.
124377L138001
Thanks Kurt - I emailed Mecum for more info, sent the link to JM & was seriously thinking of going to the auction to try buy this car - if it checked out as a 67Z!
What a great site😀
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I already notified Mecum.
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Nice car.
But it originally was gold and was a L30/M35 and had a POP.
124377L138001
Thanks Kurt - I emailed Mecum for more info, sent the link to JM & was seriously thinking of going to the auction to try buy this car - if it checked out as a 67Z!
What a great site😀
I just heard back from JM - definitely a fake....IMHO Mecum should follow BJ's lead & bring in experts like JM to check out the "rare" original cars.
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crazy that this is still going on.
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Nice car.
But it originally was gold and was a L30/M35 and had a POP.
124377L138001
Thanks Kurt - I emailed Mecum for more info, sent the link to JM & was seriously thinking of going to the auction to try buy this car - if it checked out as a 67Z!
What a great site😀
I just heard back from JM - definitely a fake....IMHO Mecum should follow BJ's lead & bring in experts like JM to check out the "rare" original cars.
In such a case, would this one be described as 'rebodied'.. or 'with a restoration drivetrain'? :)
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I would venture to guess that one of the owners swapped trim tags & drivetrain. Keeping its original vin & hidden vins.. Would like to see stampings as to whether or not they are legit or restamps but I betting the latter. I was contacted by Mecum through email so I gave them the link to this thread. Hopefully this will get resolved.
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I already notified Mecum.
I received a reply from Mecum also.
To be honest, I found it offensive. No 'Thanks for letting us know' or anything like that. But requested for me to send detailed photos like I had done an inspection on the car and "Please also include all your contact information".
I sent the tag pic, told them what Jerry said (bogus trim tag), and suggested they should "Auction the car and see what happens....."
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Lol yeah I got the same email.. We exchanged a couple emails and I got the "thanks for your time & information.." I said I guess that there's nothing that can be done.. Would hate for someone to put up big money and later find out it wasn't what it was advertised. I guess the old saying is true, Buyer Beware..
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Mecum only wants the money from the sale.
Mike
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You rate higher than me, no response, even though I sent them the original tag!
I helped Dana with a car a few years back - same thing, no thanks.
I don't think I need to help them in the future.
For reference, here is the new repro tag.
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I would have thought that selling a bogus car like that, without disclosing what it really is, was against the law? I would think that could come back to haunt Mecum, especially now that it's been brought to their attention there is no denying it.
I mean, there are laws that protect the buyers from this type of fraudulent transaction and individuals have been held accountable in the past. Is an auction house above the law?
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You rate higher than me, no response, even though I sent them the original tag!
I helped Dana with a car a few years back - same thing, no thanks.
I don't think I need to help them in the future.
For reference, here is the new repro tag.
I did the same & I seriously doubt that.. Your Charlie with the "golden ticket.." ;D
I'd say it was because they thought I might have been a previous owner.. I haven't received a response since.. I'm with you though I won't contact them again. Not my problem.
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Maybe they figured to load up the tag with thick paint and nobody would notice. Good thing the original tag is available for show.
Sad however. This sort of reminds me of that guy who was interviewed at some show and he claimed to be in Nam during Tet even though he got the date it took place wrong. I doubted, along with others here, he was in country at all and his Camaro was not so untouched as he suggested it was. Someone here in CRG notified the place the footage was running on and it was taken off afterwards.
Mike
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I would have thought that selling a bogus car like that, without disclosing what it really is, was against the law? I would think that could come back to haunt Mecum, especially now that it's been brought to their attention there is no denying it.
I mean, there are laws that protect the buyers from this type of fraudulent transaction and individuals have been held accountable in the past. Is an auction house above the law?
All he kept asking was for proof for their lawyers to go against what the owner is stating.. I guess photos aren't good enough. ???
Maybe they figured to load up the tag with thick paint and nobody would notice. Good thing the original tag is available for show.
Sad however. This sort of reminds me of that guy who was interviewed at some show and he claimed to be in Nam during Tet even though he got the date it took place wrong. I doubted, along with others here, he was in country at all and his Camaro was not so untouched as he suggested it was. Someone here in CRG notified the place the footage was running on and it was taken off afterwards.
Mike
That's exactly what I told him.. Lol. But if you look at it you can see it's a repop tag..
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Says Motor and Trans VIN match the car VIN. So would they most likely have been re-stamped to match the car, or has the car's VIN been altered? Wonder if the motor is even a legitimate 67 302?
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I can see where they are coming from. I guess with high dollars at stake, they will be adamant about proof. Outside of JM issuing such a notice, I'm sure they will want conclusive enough proof before they take it to the next step, if any at all. Looks like they are in the middle of this 'explosive mess'.
Mike
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Says Motor and Trans VIN match the car VIN. So would they most likely have been re-stamped to match the car, or has the car's VIN been altered? Wonder if the motor is even a legitimate 67 302?
FYI - I emailed Mecum two days ago as a potential buyer asking for photos of the engine, tranny and axle stampings with no reply. The posting on Mecum states that they are available??
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From Mecum's website...
1967 CHEVROLET CAMARO RS Z28
302/290 HP, 4-SPEED
HIGHLIGHTS
- Ordered in Black and White by Felix Chevrolet in Los Angeles, California to match dealer’s mascot, 'Felix the Cat'
- Wilson B. Felix traded a new car for rights to use 'Felix the Cat' for his dealership mascot
- Less than 500 miles on frame-off restoration
- Original rust free sheet metal
- MP-suffix 302/290 HP V-8 engine, partial vin matches car
- Muncie M21 4-speed transmission, partial vin matches car
- 12 bolt QA code 4.10 Positraction
- Power steering, power front disc brakes
- Factory traction bar
- RPO Z22 RS package
- Rare code AA Tuxedo Black
- RPO Z23 special interior décor package
- Factory Black custom bucket seat package
- Tinted glass, fold down seat
- Center console, Deluxe seat belts
- Tach and gauges package
- Front and rear bumper guards
- 15 inch wheels with Redline tires
- Original Chevrolet cowl tag with correct option codes
- NCRS shipping data report
- Detailed pictures of all casting numbers, date codes and vin stampings
- Pictures of car before restoration
Paul
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This is something else and highly disappointing on Mecum's part. Time will tell us more!
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so with the new fake cowl tag, they changed two things: Paid code from G-2 to A-A, and the lower entry that was originally '2MG' was changed to '2LG'. All else seems to be the same unless I missed something important..? Did they do this just to change the color to black? or is that last change important also?? what is the 2LG??
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You rate higher than me, no response, even though I sent them the original tag!
I helped Dana with a car a few years back - same thing, no thanks.
I don't think I need to help them in the future.
For reference, here is the new repro tag.
Maybe a mention that if they don't correct their advertising, you will provide the information to the buyer that the Mecum marketing/advertising was false and misleading and that they knew it before the auction.... that *might* get their attention.. :)
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so with the new fake cowl tag, they changed two things: Paid code from G-2 to A-A, and the lower entry that was originally '2MG' was changed to '2LG'. All else seems to be the same unless I missed something important..? Did they do this just to change the color to black? or is that last change important also?? what is the 2LG??
2M is for Power Glide & 2L is 4 speed.
They also added the 4L - Z28 :)
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so with the new fake cowl tag, they changed two things: Paid code from G-2 to A-A, and the lower entry that was originally '2MG' was changed to '2LG'. All else seems to be the same unless I missed something important..? Did they do this just to change the color to black? or is that last change important also?? what is the 2LG??
Gary, they also added the 4L which indicates Z/28!
Paul
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so with the new fake cowl tag, they changed two things: Paid code from G-2 to A-A, and the lower entry that was originally '2MG' was changed to '2LG'. All else seems to be the same unless I missed something important..? Did they do this just to change the color to black? or is that last change important also?? what is the 2LG??
So the car was NOT a Z28, was NOT black... the total sales/marketing BS is fabricated from zilch.... UGH... Isn't that quite an endorsement of the seller!! NOT...
Gary, they also added the 4L which indicates Z/28!
Paul
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You rate higher than me, no response, even though I sent them the original tag!
I helped Dana with a car a few years back - same thing, no thanks.
I don't think I need to help them in the future.
For reference, here is the new repro tag.
Maybe a mention that if they don't correct their advertising, you will provide the information to the buyer that the Mecum marketing/advertising was false and misleading and that they knew it before the auction.... that *might* get their attention.. :)
LOL Gary, yeah that could possibly light a fire under someone.
I can see where they are coming from. I guess with high dollars at stake, they will be adamant about proof. Outside of JM issuing such a notice, I'm sure they will want conclusive enough proof before they take it to the next step, if any at all. Looks like they are in the middle of this 'explosive mess'.
Mike
Yeah I can understand that coming from Mecums perspective.
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A nitwit I work with says you can add RS,SS, Z-28 emblems and make the cars anything you want. No one can tell the difference.
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You rate higher than me, no response, even though I sent them the original tag!
I helped Dana with a car a few years back - same thing, no thanks.
I don't think I need to help them in the future.
For reference, here is the new repro tag.
Maybe a mention that if they don't correct their advertising, you will provide the information to the buyer that the Mecum marketing/advertising was false and misleading and that they knew it before the auction.... that *might* get their attention.. :)
LOL Gary, yeah that could possibly light a fire under someone.
I can see where they are coming from. I guess with high dollars at stake, they will be adamant about proof. Outside of JM issuing such a notice, I'm sure they will want conclusive enough proof before they take it to the next step, if any at all. Looks like they are in the middle of this 'explosive mess'.
Mike
Yeah I can understand that coming from Mecums perspective.
Dont worry guys I have saved my emails... 8)
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Maybe read the fine print at the bottom of the ad. The consignor provided the information about the car. The auction is 15 days from today and I doubt anyone from Mecum has seen it yet. They have an investment in marketing the car and now this. Do you expect them to vet the histories on 700 cars?
Information found on the website is presented as advance information for the auction lot. Photos, materials for videos, descriptions and other information are provided by the consignor/seller and is deemed reliable, but Mecum Auction does not verify, warrant or guarantee this information. The lot and information presented at auction on the auction block supersedes any previous descriptions or information. Mecum is not responsible for information that may be changed or updated prior to the auction. The decision to purchase should be based solely on the buyers personal inspection of the lot at the auction site prior to the auction.
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I get and understand it.. Problem is we as passionate Camaro enthusiasts see it as sinful to openly present a car as something it is not.. I would be the same way if I were a Mopar or Ford guy..
I also think that when you have a high profile car like a 67 Z then they (Mecum) needs to verify the car.. But that is just me.. ;D
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A nitwit I work with says you can add RS,SS, Z-28 emblems and make the cars anything you want. No one can tell the difference.
Send him a link to a CRG page that explains it. Not sure how a nitwit would react to that...
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Bullitt, it would go right over his head. Darrel, not only sinful but illegal in most states.
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I would bet trim tag is the gray area.. VIN absolutely illegal..
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Maybe read the fine print at the bottom of the ad. The consignor provided the information about the car. The auction is 15 days from today and I doubt anyone from Mecum has seen it yet. They have an investment in marketing the car and now this. Do you expect them to vet the histories on 700 cars?
Information found on the website is presented as advance information for the auction lot. Photos, materials for videos, descriptions and other information are provided by the consignor/seller and is deemed reliable, but Mecum Auction does not verify, warrant or guarantee this information. The lot and information presented at auction on the auction block supersedes any previous descriptions or information. Mecum is not responsible for information that may be changed or updated prior to the auction. The decision to purchase should be based solely on the buyers personal inspection of the lot at the auction site prior to the auction.
Ah okay, there ya go. I think this statement from Mecum likely removes any liability they may have, they basically represent the car as the seller claims. It's also possible Mecum doesn't have knowledgeable people on staff to verify such things.
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Says Motor and Trans VIN match the car VIN. So would they most likely have been re-stamped to match the car, or has the car's VIN been altered? Wonder if the motor is even a legitimate 67 302?
If this was originally an L30, then it would at least have the matching VIN. on the Block wouldn't it?
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If this was originally an L30, then it would at least have the matching VIN. on the Block wouldn't it?
Nope, in '67 only Z28 & SS engines got the partial VIN stamped on the engine pad. It would be possible to use the original engine assembly code and restamped just the last letter of the engine suffix code.
Paul
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Hat's off to Mecum as the title of the ad is now "67 Camaro RS".....(where's the thumbs up smiley ?)
"During the restoration, this car was transformed to exacting Z/28 specifications."
Beautiful car for sure and appears to be a very high quality build.... But went too far with the bogus stamps and trim tag.
I'd say it'll probably get 5 twinkies from the Clone Ranger... ;D
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I would be happier with "clone" "tribute" or "re-creation." Seems they deliberately avoided those terms.
Still, another fine example of the hobby policing itself.
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Good for Mecum, they've made an attempt to straighten it out. I wonder if they confer with the owner before changing the add and how that went.
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I feel better now that Felix the Cat's reputation is exonerated ;)
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From Mecum's website (a.k.a. before and after CRG)...
2/25/16:
1967 CHEVROLET CAMARO RS Z28
302/290 HP, 4-SPEED
HIGHLIGHTS
- Ordered in Black and White by Felix Chevrolet in Los Angeles, California to match dealer’s mascot, 'Felix the Cat'
- Wilson B. Felix traded a new car for rights to use 'Felix the Cat' for his dealership mascot
- Less than 500 miles on frame-off restoration
- Original rust free sheet metal
- MP-suffix 302/290 HP V-8 engine, partial vin matches car
- Muncie M21 4-speed transmission, partial vin matches car
- 12 bolt QA code 4.10 Positraction
- Power steering, power front disc brakes
- Factory traction bar
- RPO Z22 RS package
- Rare code AA Tuxedo Black
- RPO Z23 special interior décor package
- Factory Black custom bucket seat package
- Tinted glass, fold down seat
- Center console, Deluxe seat belts
- Tach and gauges package
- Front and rear bumper guards
- 15 inch wheels with Redline tires
- Original Chevrolet cowl tag with correct option codes
- NCRS shipping data report
- Detailed pictures of all casting numbers, date codes and vin stampings
- Pictures of car before restoration
2/27/16:
1967 CHEVROLET CAMARO RS
302/290 HP, 4-SPEED
HIGHLIGHTS
- Ordered by Felix Chevrolet in Los Angeles, California
- Wilson B. Felix traded a new car for rights to use 'Felix the Cat' for his dealership mascot
- Less than 500 miles on frame-off restoration
- During the restoration, this car was transformed to exacting Z28 specifications
- Correctly dated MP-suffix 302/290 HP V-8
- Correctly dated Muncie M21 4-speed
- 12 bolt QA code 4.10 Positraction
- Original rust free sheet metal
- Power steering, power front disc brakes
- Factory traction bar
- RPO Z22 RS package
- RPO Z23 special interior décor package
- Factory Black custom bucket seat package
- Tinted glass, fold down seat
- Center console, Deluxe seat belts
- Tach and gauges package
- Front and rear bumper guards
- 15 inch Rally wheels with Redline tires
- NCRS shipping data report
Paul
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Nice going CRG😀
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The first red flag that caught my attention was how they transformed the car to exact Z/28 specifications.WHAT! There's no transforming of a car unless you mean to deceive. I understand clones but advertise them as such. WOW definitely buyer beware.
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Maybe it's just me but when I read "transformed" that tells me right away it's a clone, just a different way of saying it. I don't see it as deceiving at all. They all say it so many ways now, replica, tribute, reproduction etc... Doesn't matter to me how they say it. Still gets the message across that the car isn't a real one.
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In today's climate...transformed is the politically correct (ad nauseam) way to say clone.
Mike
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Those changes are VERY significant from the 'packet of lies' that the original ad was.... If I knew that seller personally, I don't think I'd think very much of him after reading that ad... ;(
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Looks like the car was pulled from the auction.
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What do you bet the owner no likey CRG. >:(
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What do you bet the owner no likey CRG. >:(
Yeah, well, I look at the other side too. For the one person that might have upset, it probably made a dozen more happy that they didn't plunk down good money for a clone. Hopefully those honest people realize the importance of CRG and stop others from making that mistake.
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Yeah, well, I look at the other side too. For the one person that might have upset, it probably made a dozen more happy that they didn't plunk down good money for a clone. Hopefully those honest people realize the importance of CRG and stop others from making that mistake.
[/quote]
X1
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Don't think they pulled it because it was the right thing to do.Even though the auction company list a no responsibility clause you can still sue the owner and the auction company.When you say you will list the vin publicly as an issue car it fears both partys into removing the car from auction.Showing pre auction you informed them it had issues will hold them liable for not taking appropriate action.
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Very proud of my fellow CRG'ers that called the attention to this perpetuation of FRAUD!!
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Way to go guys. Frankly, I am surprised that Mecum changed the wording on the description. They have historically relied on the "representation" of the owner, even if it is obvious the owner is either misinformed, lying, or both.
I have become suspect of the pedigree of any car selling at Mecum or coming out of Florida with "documentation".
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Way to go guys. Frankly, I am surprised that Mecum changed the wording on the description. They have historically relied on the "representation" of the owner, even if it is obvious the owner is either misinformed, lying, or both.
I have become suspect of the pedigree of any car selling at Mecum or coming out of Florida with "documentation".
For what its worth nothing has changed with Mecum, I just got back from the Indy auction and this time they had a big block convertible with a bogus trim tag. Lot S165
VIN 124679N547850
NOR214528
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I was there Friday. Last time there I could walk anywhere but now areas are roped off for bidders only. Seems to me it's getting away from us ordinary folks. My 2 cents.
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One thing is for certain.. If there is money to be made then scammers & crooks will come.. This along with other issues with this hobby is slowly driving me away.. Either the parts cost an arm & a leg or the car is fake or you get forums that pick apart your car because either A. you didnt build it like they feel like you should have or B. you didnt pay a crap ton of money to have a professional shop do the work for you... I have been quilty as much as the next guy at picking apart cars on the net but I guess I am starting to see the light of day or maybe Im just having a bad day..