CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: desmreed on February 12, 2016, 02:39:46 AM
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I have a 1967 Camaro that I have owned since 1980 and has been off the road since '82. I am starting a rotisserie restoration on it and noticed the two hidden vin# are different. The vin tag on the door jamb matches the cowl# and the engine# but the one under the heater motor is way different. The numbers are 50179 apart. There is no evidence that the panel section was replaced. This is an early number car (under 150) Has anyone else experienced this?
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I have a 1967 Camaro that I have owned since 1980 and has been off the road since '82. I am starting a rotisserie restoration on it and noticed the two hidden vin# are different. The vin tag on the door jamb matches the cowl# and the engine# but the one under the heater motor is way different. The numbers are 50179 apart. There is no evidence that the panel section was replaced. This is an early number car (under 150) Has anyone else experienced this?
Answer: most everyone here will say, post pics. So, post pics, please. Oh, and welcome aboard! Interested to hear more about your long owned car.
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i'd be looking VERY closely at the metal work around those hidden VIn's... The '67 Camaro had a Stainless VIn plate didn't it? soldered or welded on the jamb? Those VIn plates are fairly easy to remove and sometimes find themselves on the 'different car'?? The non-matching hidden VINs would indicate, on first glance to be from different cars (ie. one of them is wrong for that car). I suppose it's possible that someone replaced a section of the firewall behind the heater for some reason (wreck damage? or ??), but it's probably most likely that the other two were taken from another car.
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Hopefully these pictures help. The door jamb, engine and upper cowl vin is 7N100143 but the one below the heater motor is 7N150322. Absolutely does not look like the panel with the odd number was ever changed, or the upper cowl section. Spot welds are consistent with others throughout the car. Tag has correct rosettes. Again I bought this car 36 years ago for $1000 when it wasn't that special, just an older car.
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Can't get the pictures to load. I'll keep trying.
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Can't get the pictures to load. I'll keep trying.
Read this for help on posting photos...
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7809.0
Paul
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If you cant figure it out you can email them to me and Ill post them
cook_dw@hotmail.com
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This should help with the mystery. http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/desmreed/library/Camaro (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/desmreed/library/Camaro)
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I've never seen a engine VIN with a curve like that.
In regards to the firewall VIN, maybe after hitting and seeing the number was wrong, that
it got corrected and the correct VIN was then hit at the cowl top? This is providing the bellow was not changed.
Mike
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The 143rd VIN assigned (7N100143) would have been on a late August or September car, not December; the partial above the blower motor is a better match to a December car. Also looks like a V8 engine pad but an L6 VIN tag. Hmmm.
http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#HowMany
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Good point, Tim. On another note I couldn't help but notice the white spray on the trim tag. I didn't realize it was done that early in the production run.
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Yup, cowl tag (12B) is not original to this VIN (123377N100143).
Paul
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The car came with a 210hp 2bbl 327, powerglide, console no gauges, PS, PB, 12 bolt posi, std black int., white w/black vinyl top.
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The partial VIN on the engine pad shown is a restamp. Also, the VIN number is for a 6 cylinder Camaro, so the 327 is not original.
What is the rest of the engine assembly code? "V12" is the only part visible.
Paul
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VIN tag...
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w486/desmreed/Camaro/IMG_20160205_171047356_zpscegbtf2v.jpg) (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/desmreed/media/Camaro/IMG_20160205_171047356_zpscegbtf2v.jpg.html)
Cowl tag...
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w486/desmreed/Camaro/IMG_20160205_171310638_zpsrcaaxmtl.jpg) (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/desmreed/media/Camaro/IMG_20160205_171310638_zpsrcaaxmtl.jpg.html)
Engine pad stamp...
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w486/desmreed/Camaro/IMG_20160212_060054064_zpshejpuyad.jpg) (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/desmreed/media/Camaro/IMG_20160212_060054064_zpshejpuyad.jpg.html)
Paul
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The partial VIN on the engine pad shown is a restamp. Also, the VIN number is for a 6 cylinder Camaro, so the 327 is not original.
What is the rest of the engine assembly code? "V12" is the only part visible.
Paul
Paul & others. Do you think that someone would go to the trouble to re-stamp the block waaay back in 1980 when OP acquired this car? And a pedestrian engine at that? Not something that was done BITD, I would think, with one exception being if it has a salvage title and was inspected at a Highway Patrol inspection station. At least, that is how Ohio does their's, rebuilt/salvage. Not knowing the OP's state or state rules on this. Ohio would check all numbers (can't say if they would catch the discrepancies noted here).
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I can only think of one reason to do all this... and it depends on which state it comes from as to the laws.
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Do the 67's have the top of the cowl hidden Vin as well ?
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Do the 67's have the top of the cowl hidden Vin as well ?
Yes....there are usually two areas stamped. One on the cowl top and the other under the heater cover.
Mike
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Here you go. I posted the engine stamping photo. Even with the negativity on this forum I will still finish the car to drive and enjoy. The purpose of posting the vin question was to get a simple answer and not to create a dissection of every nut, bolt and crayon mark. Thanks anyways.
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The vin tag on the door jamb matches the cowl# and the engine# but the one under the heater motor is way different. The numbers are 50179 apart. There is no evidence that the panel section was replaced. This is an early number car (under 150) Has anyone else experienced this?
"The purpose of posting the vin question was to get a simple answer" ...."..."Has anyone else experienced this?"
Personally, No, have not experienced this, except for tampered with, fraudulently misrepresented cars(not implying yours is such). And, on rare occasions, mis-stamps by personnel at the factory(s). But there is your answer.
Here you go. I posted the engine stamping photo. Even with the negativity on this forum I will still finish the car to drive and enjoy. The purpose of posting the vin question was to get a simple answer and not to create a dissection of every nut, bolt and crayon mark. Thanks anyways.
"Even with the negativity on this forum". I will apologize, as collectively speaking, that many of us do not see our own personality flaws or realize how we come across or that did something wrong, but we should at least know what it is , or was said, that you felt was negative. A lot of knowledge given freely to help you and us understand what exactly you have.
No one here is putting down your ride. I understand the long time ownership thing, as I have had mine since 79.
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Even with the negativity on this forum I will still finish the car to drive and enjoy.
Wow, try to help a guy and that's the thanks you get! :o
Engine assembly code stamp...
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w486/desmreed/Camaro/IMG_20160213_054950763_zps9l1q7ygh.jpg) (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/desmreed/media/Camaro/IMG_20160213_054950763_zps9l1q7ygh.jpg.html)
Please don't take this negatively. The engine assembly code stamp (V1205ME) looks original and I believe works with the 12B cowl tag. It appears someone remove the cowl tag and engine from another '67 Camaro and installed them in your car. It also appears they then stamped the partial VIN on the engine pad which probably was blank as generally only the Z28 and SS engines had the partial VIN's stamped on '67 Camaros.
Paul
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Actually, I thought we all addressed as positively as possible the negative aspects of his question (car)... :) He will not find the answers he WANTS to find, regardless of where he looks, and if it was my car (and in the condition it appeared to be in from the photos), I'd be digging deep to find out the exact origins of all the discrepancies, BEFORE I spent a lot more $$ on it.
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67 327's do not have vin stamps on them, so that alone indicates a restamp, even without seeing the out of line vin stamps. Only the L48's, Z28's and big blocks got vin stamps on the engines. The vin stamp on the top o the cowl matches the VIN plate, and both rosette rivets still appear to be original and in place, so this is a very early built 6 cylinder car, #143 probable built the last week of August 66 at Norwood. The cowl tag is from a much later December built car that has obviously been removed from its original body (look at the area around the rivets) Can't explain the stamp under the heater as it appears to me to be 7N750322, which is not a valid 67 (or any first gen Camaro VIN) If it was 7N150322 it would be a close match to the cowl tag, but the body appears to have been red originally, as the paint around the elephant ears seems to be the original color, and the tag indicates its from a Turquoise car with a black top so that doesn't match the remnants of the paint. Quite a mystery, but there are parts from two cars in this one.
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The numeric "1" font style in the partial VIN doesn't look correct compared to other originals I have seen in '67.
Anyhow......to the OP, just enjoy the car which is the purpose it was built for.
Mike
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Look at the A pillar... that is Capri cream which is color Code T- which is what the trim tag states.
The bigger issue is that the number on the cowl top matches the number stamped in the block... MATCHES as in the stamps are the same, the same physical individual stamps were used to strike the characters, this is not how it was done, looking at the one under the heater box is correct, I would check the sheetmetal dates on the rest of the car as the date above the 150xxx vin is a 49... 3 week before the end of the year... perfect for a 12B build date.
(http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w486/desmreed/Camaro/IMG_20160212_060306754_zpstviya4ct.jpg)
FWIW - I would be willing to bet that the VIN 7N150322 has issues.
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Good catch there, James, with the cowl top and engine pad stampings. It sure looks like the same fonts.
I wonder if the paint is removed from the cowl if another VIN can be seen or signs of grinding it out.
At this point I would just fix it up drive it being it's not a more sought after model.
Mike
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Good point, James. So another possible scenario is, this was an original 327 car and, for some reason, someone added the 6 cylinder VIN plate and re(stamped) the partial VINs on top of the cowl and on the engine pad. They left the partial VIN under the heater box cover as-is because it was too difficult to get to or they didn't know it existed. Whatever happened, the cowl tag has been removed.
Paul
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Someone may have welded the VIN pillar into the car, when we owned a dealership 30-35 years ago we bought a few mid 70's Ford pick-up trucks out of a Georgia dealer which turned out to have had the door pillars with the VIN's cut and replaced, the police found wrecking yards in Georgia with total loss trucks of the same vintage with the VIN pillars missing.
My opinion is they figured after checking the door, the easy hidden and the engine they wouldn't pull a fender and heater box.
The later (150,xxx) VIN is the one likely with issues, the car matches the 150,xxx VIN and 12 T-2 cowl tag, yet has an early VIN.
The VIN is earlier than the engine build date... IMPOSSIBLE!
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Agreed. I see an original 12B car with the matching VIN by the heater and a correctly dated block. I noticed that sheetmetal date too - 49th week for a 51st week car - that's original to the car. Nice catch on the A-pillar color.
327 blocks would not have VIN's stamped on them in 67. And the fonts are wrong on the cowl VIN.
Interesting that somehow the VIN has rosette rivets, but that's not the original body for that VIN.
Proceed at your own risk. I'd say that there's a good chance of a stolen vehicle being involved.
Even with the negativity on this forum I will still finish the car to drive and enjoy. The purpose of posting the vin question was to get a simple answer and not to create a dissection of every nut, bolt and crayon mark. Thanks anyways.
As a moderator, I reviewed all the posts. Not one person posted anything out of line - every statement made was factual. Sorry to see you go, but say la V.
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Well put Kurt. Sometimes our inherent human nature flaws rear their ugly heads when we don't get the answers we want to hear........ This is undoubtedly the most informational site addressing the 1st Gens to be found anywhere. You guys please keep up the good work.
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The OP (desmreed) stated in one of his earlier post:
"Again I bought this car 36 years ago for $1000 when it wasn't that special, just an older car."
He asked for our opinions and advice, and we gave it to him.. He'd be well served to pay attention before he invests additional time/$ into that car. As it turns out, there IS something *special* about that car, but probably not in a 'good special' way. He should have figured this out for himself, but in case he hasn't.. I'll say it more bluntly here. He 'probably' purchased a stolen car in 1980 which had been disguised by altering the VIN/cowltag/engine, potentially years before he purchased it. The original person who did that should show up in the record of prior owners.
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The OP has deleted all the above photos from his Photobucket account.
For future reference, the two VINs involved with this car are 123377N100143 & 124377N150322
Paul
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So if a stolen car, would it show up somewhere as stolen with either of the two VIN's?
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That's a good question; based on the OP's post, it would have happened before 1980... and that's a long time ago!
If it was stolen (and disguised) the correct VIN for the stolen car would be the hidden VIN behind the heater blower housing. That was well before the internet and servers saving *everything*, so it probably would only show up in old paper records in whatever state it happened in.
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So if a stolen car, would it show up somewhere as stolen with either of the two VIN's?
Possible, but more like with the 124377N150322 VIN. I Googled both VINs and came up with nothing. I ran both VINs through the NICB database and both VINs are clear. I also ran both VINs through the NMVTIS database and both came back as VIN not found. The OP said he purchased this car 36 years ago, so records might be tough to dig up.
Paul
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I'm not sure what happened here exactly, but years ago it was very common to switch VINs to a donor car if the original got totaled and was owned outright. Throw the registration in the glovebox and giddy up for no other reason than to simply put a car back on the road. I've also had hidden VINs run for me recently and one came up stolen and recovered in the 80's. Rosette rivets were not as hard to come by as people may think.
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Where were rosette rivets used on a '67???
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Where were rosette rivets used on a '67???
The VIN tag.
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I thought '67's had stainless plates welded/soldered to the A pillar....?
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I thought '67's had stainless plates welded/soldered to the A pillar....?
Nope, in 1967 the VIN plate is riveted to the driver-side A-pillar and is visible when the driver-side door is open.
Looks like this...
(https://secure.finishlinestudios.com/users/www_classiccarsltd_com/files/auto/vehicle/397/IMG_2918.JPG)
Paul
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Thanks.. so it is stainless and where I thought it was but not welded/soldered, but riveted with a special rivet. What year did they begin with that rivet?
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What year did they begin with that rivet?
Gary, IIRC, GM started using the rosette style rivets to hold the VIN tag in place beginning January 1965.
Paul
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Thanks Paul.. I've never owned one of those years... so thus my ignorance.. :)
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Rosettes are on my 66 GTO and 67 Chevelle. Not exclusive to Camaros.
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And even among rosettes I have seen varying degrees of how well defined the edge pattern is ranging from strong to almost round edges, mainly with LOS tags.
Mike
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Rosettes are on my 66 GTO and 67 Chevelle. Not exclusive to Camaros.
My 66 Vettes have them as well...
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Not exclusive to GM either.
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Gary, the corvette had the vin plate welded to the windshield pillar.
Buddy
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What year Corvette was that, Buddy??
Earlier Corvettes- from fifties into the sixties - the VIN plate was attached either to the steering column (under the hood), or do the drivers door jamb (by screws - since the body was fiberglass). My '69, '72, and '90 corvettes have the 'viewable' VINs thru the windshield (as I think all cars have had since '69 - or '68?)..