CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: BULLITT65 on January 21, 2016, 04:23:22 PM
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Would you pay more for a rare color ? if it was a desirable rare color how much more?
Ok this may have been discussed before but ZLP955 question about Corvette Bronze made me think of this question.
So Price is related to demand right? So most likely, if the condition was the same, a hugger orange car would go for more than a burnished brown car, just based on there is more demand for the orange than the brown, (sorry BB guys).
Now Orange is not a rare color vs. burnished brown, but what if the color of the car was corvette bronze and just for argument sake we are talking about a SS model. How much more would the purchase price go up for that desirable color? vs. just a red, blue or black?
Now I know everybody has different tastes, and more recently you see re-stamps with 10 10 (black) or 72 72 (Orange) on them, but while those colors have a following and there might be a slight uptick in price for them, I wouldn't say either is rare.
Now there are other "rare" colors like gold champaign in 69 but I wouldn't put that in the same category as Corvette bronze.
I know not everyone is a fan of Corvette bronze, just trying to get an idea of how much more that color would bring. thanks :)
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I think you answered your question in your question. It has to do with demand.. More demand more money. You can apply this to just about anything..
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yes but how much more would a Corvette bronze color bring?
Also I am not sure of it has been calculated, how many CB 68 Camaros were made approx?
I am trying to analyze other makes and models with a similar dilemma of having a rare desirable color, and how much this contributes to a higher asking price.
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I took offense when you said "just a red"...to me a rare color doesn't make it more a desirable color, probably just the opposite. If a purple camaro rolled up beside me, I wouldn't pay more for it.
There's an argument that a rare color may actually detract from the car's value. When I see 40's and 50's cars in colors other than what I expect, my brain instantly warns me that they are not original. Right or wrong, for me it detracts from the value of an original car at a glance.
Andy
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thats why I referenced the burnished brown or champaign gold, they are low production colors, but to many not the most desirable.
Yes I would pay a little more for red, and Gary would pay a little more for orange, but it seems like a color like corvette bronze has a wide appeal among first gen camaro fans, so I am just trying to see what the consensus is of how much extra would you pay. 5% more for a CB camaro than the value of the car in a basic color?
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http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages (http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages)
I am not sure you will be successful with figuring out an accurate way to calculate values on colors.. Why was Frost Green & Fathom Green 8 & 10% of production but now (especially Frost) is not a desirable color today to most people? But like you said Black was 2.0% and is very popular today.. Because color preferences come and go. Orange, silver, red and yellow have always been popular colors for the majority. I guess I am the odd man out because I like the unique and none conventional colors because it makes it different.
Heres a couple charts for comparison sake.
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I think there are two issues at play here. "Rare" can increase value because there weren't as many produced. On the other side of the coin, "popular" can increase value because of its appeal, but as previously noted, those things come and go like fads. Low production should hold a value more consistently than trends, but both are market-driven.
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Hmmm, I thought long and hard on this question. It is hard to answer. In the end I would say that for myself I would not pay any amount more for a rare color. I used to own a 1967 RS that was Sierra Fawn, that based on the chart was the rarest color in 1967. I bought this car from the original owner because it was a one owner car and all original with only 48,000 miles. The color didn't come into play at all for me.
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Those 2 charts are interesting, guess I was under impression CB was a bit lower production for 68.
Your second chart 2010 Camaro color production was submitted before the end of production, and may not include export cars to Canada and other countries, but is close.
Now while I don't think a 2010 SS in summit white may go for more than a basic color, but it is fun to speculate if a Imperial blue SS, or Aqua blue metallic SS, would be desirable enough to command more money in the future, or will they be viewed as butternut yellow as time goes on?
(No offense Butternut yellow guys)
I agree it is always market driven, so what may not have been popular color when production started and cars were ordered. The same color may gain in popularity after the factory stopped producing it. Such as corvette bronze being a 68 only color.
Or for the 2010 Aqua blue Metallic being a 1 year only color.
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Austin, assumptions can be .. wrong... :)
you said: "Yes I would pay a little more for red, and Gary would pay a little more for orange, but it seems like a color like corvette bronze..."
I would not pay more for an orange car! I like hugger orange (and I joke about it a lot in here for fun), but I like many other colors more for various reason. I like butternut yellow because a friend of mine bought one when '67's were new (and I was SO jealous - not being able to afford any car at all). :) I love corvette bronze because I had a friend with one and they are rare and one year only - AND it's a pleasant color!).
I'm sure all of us have various reasons for 'liking' particular colors over any other, but I think re our collector cars, *most people* would agree with Vince's statement " I bought this car from the original owner because it was a one owner car and all original with only 48,000 miles. The color didn't come into play at all for me. " I would buy an 'old classic car' for many reasons other than color; color would be a secondary consideration, although I would say some colors might push me down in desirability a bit, whereas others might push me up a bit ($ wise), but in general color is down on my list of things I look for in a car.. after all, any color paint can be applied to any car.. :)
PS. if I'm not mistaken, the color percentages archived on CRG, and posted by Darrell, are from colors or cowl tag information provided to CRG (30-40 yrs AFTER production), and thus represent colors of the cars which *survived*? or were *restored*?, or which were 'popular' to the owner, and not necessarily reflective of actual production percentages (for which Chevy/GM have never released data for to my knowledge)...
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Well 9 years ago I was looking for a unrestored 69Z first, and was hoping I could find one in Garnet red. So yes color was the second tier, and I was fortunate that it worked out. Just saying I would't have kept pursuing my car or not as much had it been fathom green. But thats me. JohnZ may be just the opposite... ;D
And what was I thinking, first gens will always be in demand right???
Gen 5 Camaros may be worth dirt in the future....hahhaha ....
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Believe it or not, I like the Garnet Red too.. in fact I'm repainting my El Camino to 'Cranberry red', which is a very similar '72 color to the '69 garnet red.. :)
Who knows what the future will hold.. maybe we won't be able to buy gas for older cars at all and we'll all be driving electric cars.. ?? :) (I hope I'm gone before then!).. :)
PS. back in the late '70's and early 80's.. when the gas octane decreased, and prices went up... I considered several options to continue driving my Z28... water injection? converting to propane fuel? ... Damn, I'm glad I didn't do any of that crap.. :) .. I also remember 74 or so, when gas became scarce, the automotive mags were filled with high performance cars for sale cheap.. Hemis... Cobras.. Panteras... you name it.... :) but fortunately we got past all that too!
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http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages (http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages)
I have always thought these were actual production percentages, are you saying they are not?
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Hmmm, I thought long and hard on this question. It is hard to answer. In the end I would say that for myself I would not pay any amount more for a rare color. I used to own a 1967 RS that was Sierra Fawn, that based on the chart was the rarest color in 1967. I bought this car from the original owner because it was a one owner car and all original with only 48,000 miles. The color didn't come into play at all for me.
For me.....I agree on survivors.....when you look at one - color is second place to condition/originality. No real answer on a non-survivor....everyone will say - hey, I don't mind (insert color here).....but when it comes to trying to sell it all you hear is.....well, you know....it's (insert color here).....not everyone likes that color etc. :^)
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http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages (http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages)
I have always thought these were actual production percentages, are you saying they are not?
You gotta read the text in front of the chart.. which says:
"This is one of the most frequently asked questions, but there are no known official production numbers on colors from GM. CRG does know that color use was tracked at the division (Chevrolet) level, but the most popular color overall within Chevrolet (dominated by full-size car and truck sales) was not necessarily the most popular within a specific model line like Camaro.
However, the CRG database for 1967-69 Camaros is now large enough to generate some estimates on color usage by percentage of total production. ( Interior color usage estimates are also available.)
As a disclaimer, the current CRG database is not a uniform population - there are seasonal, model-type, and geographic biases in the data. That said, the CRG database is the best available source for estimating paint use, and the results are fundamentally sound. "
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http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages (http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages)
I have always thought these were actual production percentages, are you saying they are not?
Yes the first gen numbers are probably the most up to date that we have.
I was referring to the 2010 numbers, which the total was 129,000 cars, not 94,000. (There was also a special synergy green 6 cylinder only model that is not accounted for on the graph.) So for instance the Aqua blue metallic total production was 3903 accounting for just barley 3% of the total. And then just like 1st gens you can break down each 2010 camaro color by SS production (about 58% of production, or manual transmission ( 30% of production), etc. to figure out how "rare" your car may be,
which again may mean nothing if there isn't any demand for the Gen5 to begin with. It may take 20 years to see how the Gen 5 market plays out, but as Gary said who knows what will be driving then....Gasoline may be a thing of the past by then, (hopefully not).
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http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages (http://www.camaros.org/exterior.shtml#ColorPercentages)
I am not sure you will be successful with figuring out an accurate way to calculate values on colors.. Why was Frost Green & Fathom Green 8 & 10% of production but now (especially Frost) is not a desirable color today to most people? But like you said Black was 2.0% and is very popular today.. Because color preferences come and go. Orange, silver, red and yellow have always been popular colors for the majority. I guess I am the odd man out because I like the unique and none conventional colors because it makes it different.
Heres a couple charts for comparison sake.
It's a change in taste. If you were around back then, you probably remember all the green cars running around. Green was hugely popular in the late 60's and early 70's, not just chevy, but all makes and models. It's the original color I still see the most on data plates when customer cars roll in here, even though they've been repainted in the past with black or red.
For me, I never lost the flavor for greens. I prefer either really light greens (like Frost) or the really dark greens like Fathom or Verdero. The greens in between don't do much for me. I also still love golds, which was another very often seen color in the late 60's and early 70's.
I've noticed a trend in the last 5-6 years as well. More and more people are going back to these original colors on there cars no matter how rare (or not) or undesirable the color might be today. More and more are coming back. In my opinion I think it's refreshing to see. I absolutely enjoyed painting these T-birds pictured here back into their original colors, coral sand and willow green. These colors grow on you after a while.
But to answer the question, I would only consider paying more for a color that I like, not because it's rare. I much rather enjoy seeing the greens and golds and soft yellows like butternut, so I would actually pay more for those, I'm tired of reds and blacks. No offense to anyone.
Pfff, nevermind, photobucket isn't working correctly. I really dislike these computers.
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Or for the 2010 Aqua blue Metallic being a 1 year only color.
I"ve got one of these. It was actually discontinued in Nov 2009; So only available for about 6 months.
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Okay here you go...Corral Sand and Willow Green...
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P3030009_zps1k8ffh0z.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P3030009_zps1k8ffh0z.jpg.html)
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/PC090015_zpsum51wzsl.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/PC090015_zpsum51wzsl.jpg.html)
Or how about Dusk Rose
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P8290028_zpsr4ez2nnb.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P8290028_zpsr4ez2nnb.jpg.html)
Car is finished here and in it's first show
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P9050041_zpsvnl2qcke.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P9050041_zpsvnl2qcke.jpg.html)
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Some food for thought...
2 reasons I bought my Z. I knew it was real, and it is Frost Green. My hope is that this color isn't well accepted and never catches on because the last thing I want is to see a dozen or more Frost Green Camaros at a show. That is the attraction for me, it's just not seen anymore. There must be 50,000 69 Z28's running around now, lol, how many are Frost Green today? I hope it stays that way.
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I like all of those colors, but that is what was period correct back then.
There is a little darker green than the willow green, I am not a fan of that color.
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Color preference varies a lot and mine has changed over the years. I was involved in restoring quite a few red cars. That color is not as high on my list now.
Fathom Green and Burnished Brown (plus Lemans Blue) are high on my list. :)
But there aren't really any "bad" first generation Camaro colors in my opinion.
I would consider a 1964 Impala SS with silver exterior plus silver (and black) interior as rare AND desirable. :)
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Austin, I thought long and hard about this. I wouldn't pay ANY more for a rare color if the car was a plain jane. The car in question would have to be blessed with options and the color/interior choice would be a major factor, then the price would be effected.
I have been looking for a 68 in Tripoli Turquoise with 716 Ivory or 749 Black houndstooth or 719 blue dlx. with A/C for ages. Maybe a dusk blue 69 with blue dlx. or houndstooth, or Corvette Bronze with Houndstooth, etc. Finding that unique combination would cause considerable amounts of fruit jars to be dug up, but no digging for a plain jane!
Bryan
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Well that is why I prefaced the question with saying an example would be a SS car in a main stream color like blue, red, yellow, green, or black, vs A not so common color like Corvette bronze which seems to be a favorite, but unfortunate 1 year only availability.
I figured color would be less of a consideration if the car wasn't at least a SS, or RS, Z/28, or something above the norm.
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An option like SS or Z/28 is what make a color pop. My Corvette Bronze car is a Z/28. The black stripes help the color. A later SS396 would also pop in Corvette Bronze with the late SS stripes & tail panel black. A plain Jane in Corvette Bronze is dull in my opinion.
I don't know if I would pay more for a special color. I would probably step closer to the plate for a houndstooth interior car.
An orange 69 SS396 with a white vinyl top & an orange interior would probably make me scramble for cash. That would be the rare match to my Y/Y SS396...Joe
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Flipping the coin Austin and taking it a step further, now something I would pay extra for is a white interior car. I could live with most exterior colors, but I will (and have) paid more for a white interior car. They are not very common to find, as most are black, and I see a lot of blue. In warm Arizona white interior is a plus, especially in a car that you couldn't order AC on ;) An added bonus is houndstooth along with that, so you're sitting on cloth instead of vinyl.
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An orange 69 SS396 with a white vinyl top & an orange interior would probably make me scramble for cash. That would be the rare match to my Y/Y SS396...Joe
I've seen one orange/orangeHT SS.. but can't recall seeing Y/YHT SS... I'd love to see some pix Joe.. :)
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Mine is Frost Green, black stripes, with white deluxe houndstooth. That's why I bought it. A lot of contrast that should stand out from the rest. Added bonus it's an RS and X33 code, no mistaking it's identity.
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Gary, there is a yellow 69 SS that runs around here, with yellow deluxe houndstooth, a 396/350hp car with auto. Nicely done car but sheeesh that's a lot of yellow :o
Even the orange/orange Camaros are a lot to take. You guys and your orange Camaros, haha. I already have an orange SS chevelle, black stripes/black interior. That's all the orange I can handle ;D
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X33.. the first time I laid eyes on my currently owned '69 Z28/RS, I had a similar reaction.. TOO much orange. It was 1976 and I'd never seen an orange/black houndstooth interior in a hardtop/coupe (only the Pace cars)... After I examined the car though, saw the originality of it, the condition, and the options (cowl, all tint glass, remote mirror, gauges/tach, all the RS trim, woodgrain, etc)... I ended up trading my '68 marina blue/back Z28 for it.. I learned to love it because it's *different*.. :)
Right after I bought the orange/orange Z28 in 1976, I saw a Z28 for sale, went to look at it and found it was identical to my orange car, but in YELLOW.. I really wanted it to have a PAIR of such unique (eye paining) cars.. :) but wifey rejected the idea.... $1900 for a rustfree, original, loaded Z28/RS.. dang... :(
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I could post a picture but I can't remember how...Joe
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Figured it out...Joe
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Nice car, Joe! I almost bought a yellow SS like yours only with a black top. I drove it and wanted it real bad, but the ammeter (aftermarket) smoked when I went to shut it off after the test drive. Somehow shorted out because it wouldn't turn off. Had to let the clutch out and kill it. Man I wanted that car, and since I wasn't a mechanic (yet) I didn't know how easy a fix that would've been. But less than a month later, catty-corner to the lot where the SS had been, was my Z. And the rest is history
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It seems like not that long ago I saw a 69 Z on eBay that was Daytona yellow with a white vinyl top and white stripes, with a white interior. Not my cup of tea, but I am sure it would stand out, as being different color combo than most.
So it sounds like some of you are saying yes, for a rare color combo (not just exterior color) that you are willing to pay more. Would 5% above average be correct?
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from the lower 2.5%
I have actually thought about purchasing a new GMC truck in bronze alloy metallic just to be different- and to almost match the camaro
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Figured it out...Joe
Neat combo.. and I'm sure I haven't seen one that combination.. especially with the white roof (and black stripes).. don't the stripe color and roof color generally match??
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According to everything I've read here, Daytona yellow always had black stripes no matter what the top color was...Joe
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Unless it had - - on the paint code.. ;) ;D
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Wouldn't it be = ?
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Gary, didn't mean to sound as if I don't like orange/orange, I do. It does stand out among others where you would normally see black interior.
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If everyone liked orange/orange.. it would be sick world eh? :)
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If everyone liked orange/orange.. it would be sick world eh? :)
You got that right!!! Only orange I like is from the pace cars and up on Rocky Top. 8)
Camaro Nationals back in 95 or 96 in Atlanta.
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Darrell,... Your hair clashes with orange.. :) so your attitude is understandable.. :)
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I have a 68 SS/RS 396 convertible 396 4speed corvette bronze/white interior white top & stripe delete car. I really like its combination. Its color really pops to me.
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I have a 68 SS/RS 396 convertible 396 4speed corvette bronze/white interior white top & stripe delete car. I really like its combination. Its color really pops to me.
PICS?????
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Darrell,... Your hair clashes with orange.. :) so your attitude is understandable.. :)
Too bad I lost it all.. lol :(
PICS?????
Good luck with that.. I havent seen the car in 20 years and Ive known him almost all my life!!! ;D
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Good luck with that.. I havent seen the car in 20 years and Ive known him almost all my life!!! ;D
You've got a friend like that, too?! My buddy swears he's still got his '69 GTO, but I haven't seen it in 35 years!
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Only have a couple pictures. Not good with posting pictures. Still need to put white top & interior put back in car. May be can get Steve or Darrell to help me.
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Nah Im just messin' with Sport. The car is super nice..
Here ya go. I snuck in his garage one day and snagged a pic.. :o
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X_cqLUNgSTY/TsSfIXxjtkI/AAAAAAAAB5g/OeWFO0cTxvg/s1600/1969_Camaro_Z28_covered.jpg)
Email me the pic and Ill post it. ;D
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Only have a couple pictures. Not good with posting pictures. Still need to put white top & interior put back in car. May be can get Steve or Darrell to help me.
This one looks great even without the top or the interior. Original owner of the car picked the combination just right, leading to this one optioned out like very few other '68 RS/SS convertibles I've ever witnessed.
Say "when" anytime you want the help with the pics. I don't need a lot of provocation to help you with it -
Regards,
Steve
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Nah Im just messin' with Sport. The car is super nice..
Here ya go. I snuck in his garage one day and snagged a pic.. :o
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X_cqLUNgSTY/TsSfIXxjtkI/AAAAAAAAB5g/OeWFO0cTxvg/s1600/1969_Camaro_Z28_covered.jpg)
:) Well.. at least he's caring for and protecting it.... :)
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Thanks guy's. Wish that was my garage looks like a whole lot more room than mine!
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Well I couldnt find a pic with 100's of Camaro parts stashed around the car.. lol
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I think you answered your question in your question. It has to do with demand.. More demand more money. You can apply this to just about anything..
Ditto.
Corvette Bronze is my favorite. ( well Cortez Silver on 69's) I actually debated a color change many years...even up to when my buddy came out to quote a price to shoot the car. He's known the car since high school in the 70's. Stipulated he would not do it any other color. Said the paint was tired, give the color a chance, I'd be happy. Shot the fender extensions and called me down to the shop to take a look. When held to the sunlight, my heart skipped a beat. Got the green light for Ash Gold. (he really would have shot another color, lol) I'm not selling it, so it was not so much about investment.
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Well...The infamous Evening Orchid Z28 just sold at the Mecum auction for $150,000 so somebody is willing to pay more for a rare color.. :).
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Well it appears that way, I am curious if there was a mystery phone bidder who bid the price up against the eventual "winner" of the auction.
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Well...The infamous Evening Orchid Z28 just sold at the Mecum auction for $150,000 so somebody is willing to pay more for a rare color.. :).
Well, that's a famous car now in addition to the rare factory color... so that probably had something to do with it, although I haven't heard how it was presented at the auction (ie. what facts they provided along with it)...
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I would say that color could add 5 to as much as 20 percent
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I'm not sure if there is always a buyer premium for rare colors but there is one for what some call wild colors or "hi po" colors or high impact colors
All the auto manufactures had these special colors in the late 60s early 70s
I remember reading articles about these colors
here is one
https://fourwheeldrift.wordpress.com/2006/09/30/color-me-crazy-%E2%80%93-the-best-and-worst-paint-color-names/
In 1969 and 1970 AMC offered a "Big Bad" color option on its Javelin and AMX.
Three colors were available ,Orange ,Green and Blue
http://bigbadamc.tripod.com/
Yenko ordered 6 Camaro colors ...Hugger Orange, Daytona Yellow, LeMans Blue, Fathom Green, Rally Green, Olympic Gold
I guess he though those were hi po colors
I have heard Camaro collectors say they would pay more for Hugger Orange, Daytona Yellow and Black cars but of course some wouldn't
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That first link had me laughing with the names they came up with....Paint Names You’ll Never See:
"With these great paint names in mind, the staff here at The Four Wheel Drift has dreamed-up the worst paint names that could ever be printed in a brochure or on a window sticker…
Yellow Snow
Blue Balls
Gang Green
Golden Showers
Gray Matter
Salmon Nilla
P.U. Ter
Packer Fudge
Tan Line
In the Buff
Beef Tungsten
Once You Go Black
Popper Cherry Red
Purple Nurpel
Lapis Dance
Pierced Naval Orange
High Whore Silver
Augusta National Country Club Membership White
Stinky Pinky
Almost Celibate Cardinal
Camel Topaz Two Tone
Augmented Chestnut
Copper Feel
What a Maroon
Sapphire Crotch
Red Tide
F-Uchsia
I Cannot Tell A Lilac
Sue ‘Em Vermillion
A Postscript – The Paint Color Nickname Hall of Fame:
From the files of “things we wished we thought of,” in 1970 the Chrysler Corp-supported Plymouth Superbird of Charlie Glotzbach started running NASCAR’s Gran National circuit painted in the factory color Plum Crazy. A creative journalist, however, gave the color a nickname that stuck with the media for years: “Statutory Grape.”
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It seems like not that long ago I saw a 69 Z on eBay that was Daytona yellow with a white vinyl top and white stripes, with a white interior. Not my cup of tea, but I am sure it would stand out, as being different color combo than most.
All yellow cars would have black stripes.
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#ExteriorColors:T:1969
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So it would have had to be a special paint yellow car to have white stripes maybe?
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Never seen one yet.
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Good info. thanks
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What about the Apple Crate, Orange Crate, Lemon Peeler, Cotton Picker, Grey Ghost and Pea Picker? oops, those were bicycles. Sorry guys, I rewound a little too far on that one