CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: X33RS on January 13, 2016, 06:25:21 PM

Title: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 13, 2016, 06:25:21 PM
I'm sure this has been gone over, but a search didn't yield me anything useful.

I've found 2 hurst comp plus shifters in my stash, and I believe them both to be original OEM, they both have molded in rubber inserts for the shift rods, round push in handles etc....

I was hoping someone here could tell me how to read this date code and possibly there is a hint as to applicaton?

1st one...   890432M

2nd one...  1280D31D   

I think the second one is a late 68 application for the 69 model year?   Maybe the first one is a later 69 application?

Thanks
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: HawkX66 on January 13, 2016, 06:39:38 PM
1st one is August of 69. Second is December of 68. There should be 3138 or something similar on the body elsewhere. You'll have to get the number off the handle to dial it in to the application.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 13, 2016, 07:16:41 PM
Thanks,
 I haven't seen any other numbers on the shifter body other than a Pat. No.   I'll look closer and see if I can find something else.

Is there a day in those sets of numbers given to go with the month you provided?   

Here are the shifter handle numbers...

7433 and the other one is 5325 I believe,  a little hard to read the last digit, but pretty sure it's a 5.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 13, 2016, 07:52:25 PM
The 5325 stick is for 69 Camaro. I believe the other is for 70-71 Camaro.

Post up some pics. There are some obvious differences with the "yokes" that the sticks go into.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 13, 2016, 08:13:56 PM
This might be another of the many differences with the "late" 69s that were built after the 70 model year started for other cars. But let's see pics of the yokes.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 13, 2016, 09:45:10 PM
Hang tight, I'll get some pics here shortly and play around again with photobucket and see if I can make it work.  Is there a certain angle you need the pics to show to help you determine what you want to see?  Down from the top, from the side???

I worded that first post wrong, One I have in a box, the other I believe is the original to my 12D 69 Z28.

The one loose in the box, the rods are on another trans I have in a different car so that kind of got separated (sort of, it's all here just scattered about, lol)
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: HawkX66 on January 13, 2016, 10:01:18 PM
A close up of each side will work.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 14, 2016, 02:00:08 AM
I'll give this a shot.  I don't think I got a good enough close up of the late 69 shifter.

(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P1120006_zps67ztx4fd.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P1120006_zps67ztx4fd.jpg.html)

(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P1120004_zps5ri4q8kt.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P1120004_zps5ri4q8kt.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 14, 2016, 05:37:49 AM
Can't see the yoke on the second pic.

Can you see the numbers on the shifter rods? What are they?
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 14, 2016, 12:46:15 PM
I'll get the trans up on the table and get a better picture of the second one for you today.  I was trying to get a close up and ended up cutting off the picture, I suck at this, bear with me.

Yes there are numbers on the rods for this shifter, I believe they are the correct rods but I'll have a look at the numbers again, I can't remember them off the top of my head.

I have the rods for the other shifter as well, but they are currently under the nomad and a little more difficult at the moment to have a look at. 
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 14, 2016, 07:18:28 PM
Let me know if this is any better

(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P1120010_zpsfnavfwi8.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P1120010_zpsfnavfwi8.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 15, 2016, 01:29:22 AM
Well that looks like the normal 69 shifter yoke.

Please see what the numbers are on the rods when you have time.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 15, 2016, 02:57:31 AM
Will do, I'll dig into it more tomorrow and post back. 
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 16, 2016, 01:00:57 PM
Okay Bryan, sorry getting back into this later than promised.  I pulled all the rods off of that Dec 68 shifter and cannot see any numbers on any of the rods.  I can say that the 3-4 shift rod is silver cad plated while the 1-2 and reverse rods are black phosphate.  I've run across this with mixed coatings before so that's not unusual I don't think.
  I did grab the stick and take some shots.  I tried the part number twice both with and without a flash but it is camera shy apparently, I can't get it to photograph, lol.   The number on the stick is 5325.



(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P1140011_zpsy0ww30pz.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P1140011_zpsy0ww30pz.jpg.html)
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P1140013_zpsg5iorfti.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P1140013_zpsg5iorfti.jpg.html)
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/Firebirdjones1/P1140012_zps8ounyujf.jpg) (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/Firebirdjones1/media/P1140012_zps8ounyujf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 16, 2016, 01:11:30 PM
I guess we can't nail down a "day of the month" with those numbers on the housing??

I do have another question.  I'm picky about mechanical things and even though this shifter is in great shape and has what I would call "normal" play in the rod linkage.  There is no visible wear on the shift arm holes in either the body or the trans side cover, and the rods show no signs of wear.   I'm pretty certain these factory hurst shifters never used bushings on the rods (I wish they did)
  I was playing with some of the "pit packs" I have hanging on the wall, and bushings fit onto the rods fine but do not fit into any of the shifter arms on either the trans or the shift housing.

So my question is, has anyone successfully drilled these arms to accept bushings?  Or is this considered a no-no among the restoration crowd?   I want to run this shifter on the car and keep the round stick appearance etc....but I don't want to devalue the original shifter by modifying anything that isn't acceptable.  I'm just picky about having a very tight feeling shifter.
   If I could find simple bronze sleeves thin enough to take up the slack without drilling that's what I would prefer to do but I think that would be difficult to find at best.  I would think this has been discussed before and others have found methods to tighten the rods within the shift arms?
Thoughts??
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: HawkX66 on January 16, 2016, 01:19:35 PM
Sure looks like a complete factory 69 shifter. If you knew what that set up is going for, or even parts of it, you wouldn't be thinking of modifying it. Our shifters did have rubber bushings from the factory and replacements are available. They just don't look OE. Very nice, complete set up you have by the looks of it. You still should look on the side facing front for the #s 3138. They should be there.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 16, 2016, 03:19:29 PM
Yeah I've seen the prices, crazy.  $500 for rods, I've seen the shifter housing in the $600 plus range.  Cracks me up.

The rubber bushings that are in the housing arms on mine, which look to be injection molded, are in perfect shape.   I've taken the rods since I had them loose, and fit them in the other 69 housing I have a picture of in this thread,  the rods fit exactly the same way, not tight, but not loose.  I would describe it as a very slight wiggle fit.  Nothing excessive.  The rods fit into the arms of the side cover of the trans in the exact same way, just a slight wiggle fit.  There are no oblong holes or grooves or any signs of wear.   My problem is that even though the movement is minimal at the rods, that problem exaggerates buy the time it gets to the shifter, and will give a sloppy feel.

I'm sure this is fairly normal so I figured (or hoped is a better word) that people have found a way to install sleeves without modifying the rods or the arms in any way.  If I could find a thin wall copper or bronze tube that is the right diameter, simply sliding that onto the arm before installation would tighten it enough to be satisfactory without any permanent modifications to the shifter.  That's really the way I would prefer to approach it so there is no harm done to the shifter at all that would affect value in any way.  If anything, it saves the shifter from any wear as long as I use a softer metal for the spacers, or even nylon would work.  Then when wear does occur, it's happening with the bushings and not the arms or the rods.

Maybe it's time I break out the mics and calipers and come up with a diameter and wall thickness that would work and then start searching the internet for a possibility.  I'd like to think you can buy bronze tube in any diameter and wall thickness you need.
   Funny I have to go through this now, because the fix for years was to just buy a comp plus shifter with it's steel bushings and shifter stops, a stronger center spring, a handle that bolts on solid, and have a very nice positive feeling shifter.   Daggum numbers matching stuff takes the fun out of it, lol.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 16, 2016, 03:27:14 PM
Here is one possibility.  3/8" tube with .030" wall.   The wall may be too thick but this was just a quick search.  So what I'm thinking might be doable.  I just have to measure diameters on the rods and arms and do some math.  Cut pieces to length and simply slide them onto the rods to take up the slack.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=1545&step=4&id=84&gclid=CjwKEAiA8ee0BRD1l7vV6JHe0zISJADxYItm4RQBG52zf1YIJB2vLCekqT9Vfpdf3fBmH2JgpElKjhoC4z_w_wcB 
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: 69Z28-RS on January 16, 2016, 03:30:05 PM
If you can identify an inexpensive (tube/sleeve) solution, you could probably sell to others with the same issue...  :)
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: HawkX66 on January 16, 2016, 03:38:27 PM
Daggum numbers matching stuff takes the fun out of it, lol
Sounds like a pretty good plan. I'm in the same boat as far as #s in a lot of cases. A few bolt on parts I've just gone a/m on until the right part/deal comes along.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 16, 2016, 03:53:25 PM
I'm searching that site I linked to and I'm seeing a couple possibilities where I could drill the inside diameter of a tube to fit the rod and still have some wall thickness left to take up the slack in the arms.  Then they would simply slide on the rods, install your spring clips and done  ;D  And no modifications to the shifter.  I know this may sound time consuming or maybe not worth the effort to some, but I'm a fanatic when it comes to stuff like this and less then perfect just bothers me.  If I can just get a more positive feel out of the shifter, even a small amount, and remove most of the slop felt at the stick, I'll feel I've accomplished something.

I think this might work.  Time to start measuring things.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 16, 2016, 03:58:31 PM
If you can identify an inexpensive (tube/sleeve) solution, you could probably sell to others with the same issue...  :)

When I figure it out I'll just pass along what I did and what I used, and others can do it if they wish.  If it helps someone else that's great.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 16, 2016, 04:17:59 PM
Your plan is probably going to be about the best solution to try - if you want to keep all of the original components and get a "tight" felling shifter.

Normally there should be numbers on the rods. Yes the finish did vary in 69.

I am more curious on the numbers on the rods for that August late 69 shifter.

For pics - lots of times for things like this it works best in natural light -  without a flash. :)
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 16, 2016, 04:34:56 PM
Ah okay, the pics of the early 69 shifter is the complete setup still on the trans that came out of the Z.
   The rods for the late 69 shifter are on the nomad.  The entire late 69 shifter setup with the 1970 Camaro handle was on an M21 that was installed on my fathers 57 nomad and just sat there since 1972 or 3 and never driven.  I later installed that trans and shifter in the 56 nomad but I changed the shifter housing and stick for another comp plus that clears a bench seat, and left the original rods intact.  It's been 30 years since that car has moved, but just recently runs and drives now. 
   I'll jockey some cars around and get that on the lift and have a look at it.  Just give me some time to do so and I'll get the numbers off those rods for you.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 16, 2016, 08:43:03 PM
If the setup is all original - I am just curious if the rods are 69 or 70.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 17, 2016, 01:23:34 AM
You have me just as curious on the rods now.  I never paid it much attention before, never knew the date on it (or even cared to check it) till now.  Being Aug 69, and the fact that 70 production started late, that would almost have to be a shifter meant for 69 I would think.  But that original stick is coded as 70 Camaro from what you guys are telling me.

I'll make an effort to get under it tomorrow.  Hopefully the rods have numbers and you can figure out what this is from.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: Bryan302 on January 17, 2016, 06:07:24 AM
X33RS,

If you could try stores like Tractor Supply (TSC) or equivalent for nylon bushings or bronze bushings for your linkage slop, they have had a good selection in the past.  Also, if you have any industrial supply places, try them for polyurethane round stock or bronze with your correct o.d., drill and ream your i.d., cut to length and your set for a tight shift!  Polyurethane or nylon would be similar to the throttle arm bushings.

Jusy my 2c,
Bryan
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: Stingr69 on January 17, 2016, 02:28:17 PM
Use the aftermarket Hurst Comp Plus and add the original GM stick.  Just need to drill the bottom of the stick.  It will still fit/function with the original GM shifter if you ever want to go back.  Tried it on a spare GTO shifter handle once and it worked fine.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 17, 2016, 08:28:01 PM
Personally I would never drill/modify an original bayonet/slip in style stick. That might weaken it. And there are other options.

Plus it sure sounds like the original poster wants to keep it all stock.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 18, 2016, 01:02:36 AM
Yeah Stingr, I know what you're saying, I can't bring myself to drill on it but the thought did cross my mind  ;D.   I don't mind however doing some digging and a little bit of my time to make bushings for the rods/arms.  They should have had bushings originally in my opinion but that's just the way they are.   30 years ago I'd have just thrown a comp plus at it and be done with it.  Now this old stuff costs too much to discard it.

Bryon, I have some numbers for you off of the linkage that was attached to that Aug 69 shifter with a 70 stick.

The 1-2 shift rod has an L and then 2488
The 3-4 shift rod is blank best I can tell, no numbers on it
Reverse  has a D and then 3404

I'll say the last "8" on the end of 2488 is hard to make out, I thought it could be a 6 but pretty sure it's 8.

3404 was the same way, I had trouble reading that last number but based off of the first 4 that is clear, it looks like the last number is also a 4.    Seems like the last digit on both of these stamps were a little faint. 
  I hope this helps you some to maybe determine something.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 18, 2016, 01:31:34 AM
Going from memory but those don't appear to be original 69 or 70 rods. Will do more checking tomorrow to see if I can determine what they are.

I believe 3404 and 2438 are aftermarket Hurst rods for 64-70 or so Chevelle.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 19, 2016, 05:19:37 PM
10-4, thanks for checking.   I did notice those rods also differ in coatings as does the factory rods (what I believe to be factory rods with no numbers) on my 69 Z28 shifter setup.  One silver cad and others black phosphate.

On that late 69 setup with a 70 stick, that was all bolted onto a complete 66 327 L79 with it's original M21 Muncie complete out of a corvette that my father bought in about 1972.  That drivetrain is in the 56 now, However I don't recall if my father bolted on that shifter at that time or if it came with it, but that all happened early 70's, and then it just sat idle.  So I know the origin of the engine/trans, but the shifter is a mistery, that engine/trans had already been in another 56 chevy by 1972 before my father acquired it.   We also had a 70 Z28 that was shared as a driver, my sister totaled that car and I stripped it of everything, but that happened a little later so this can't be that shifter.  I haven't run across that one yet.  Still digging.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: 69Z28-RS on January 20, 2016, 04:36:29 PM
Going from memory but those don't appear to be original 69 or 70 rods. Will do more checking tomorrow to see if I can determine what they are.

I believe 3404 and 2438 are aftermarket Hurst rods for 64-70 or so Chevelle.

Bryon,  What do you expect to see on '69 SB factory shifter rods?   As a result of interest this thread created, I examined my factory original shifter rods the other day.  My car is an 09C (of 69) Z28 which I believe to have all it's original parts (I believed so in 1976 when I purchased it and I still believe so).. :)

Prior to this, I'd never checked the rods for numbers as I only learned in the past year or two that such parts sometimes carried numbers!!   When I checked the alternate shifter/linkage/rods (that I traded to Dave Hawksley a couple of years ago), I only checked the lengths, ends, and bend configuration of those rods to my original rods and they matched, and of course the shifter body was from '69, so I *assumed* the items I sold him were from a '69 SB (Z28).  (He told me a few days ago that the rods he sold did not have numbers)

An examination of my shifter (890731C)/3138 and rods told me this:  The Rev rod had a number (5771?).. and the other two rods had no number that I could find although I only did a minimum amount of cleaning in attempting to find a number.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 20, 2016, 04:56:34 PM
Shifter body assembly date is August of 69. Reverse rod is correct.

Visually from what I see the other rods look right. Check a bit more. Stamping may be light.

I think there are some cases where rods were not stamped though.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: 69Z28-RS on January 20, 2016, 07:57:11 PM
The rods which SgtHawk just sold were not stamped at all according to him (I had never checked when I owned them).  Most are satisfied that they are correct for the '69 SB factory Muncie/Hurst shifter; the rods are configured identically to the ones which were on my car since 1976 when I purchased it (and which has been stored undriven since 1980).  Every part on my car that I've ever looked at (and folks here know I've looked at most parts).. have been 'factory installed original'.  I feel very confident in saying that every part on my car was installed at the factory (aside from rubber suspension bushings which I replaced, engine internals such as bearings, rings, etc which I replaced on rebuild)...  were installed in the Norwood factory when my car was built.

I have no doubt about the rods being proper for the car as assembled in the factory, but I'm curious from a research perspective about other '69 Hurst/Muncie rods you have data for... are they all stamped?   Are they not stamped?  or is there a mix? 
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 20, 2016, 08:13:30 PM
In my case the original 69Z shifter I have dated Dec 68 has what appears to be it's original rods.  They are configured just as yours are.  None of mine have any stampings on them either.  It appears others were also this way.

My late 69 shifter with the rods still on the nomad, only 2 of those rods were stamped, the other rod wasn't.   My setups also have a mixture of coatings with some black phosphate and some silver.  From what I'm told, not unusual.

To me, the stampings don't appear to be all that consistent. 
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 20, 2016, 08:16:53 PM
Something else that I was told is a clue.   The factory style rods are all coarse thread, while the aftermarket Hurst rods tend to be fine thread.

All of mine are coarse thread...

I've also noticed on all the aftermarket hurst shifters I have here on the shelf, the linkage is configured differently.  The reverse rod crosses under the 1-2 rod on every one of them.

These factory shifters I have with their original rods are all inline with each other just as you show in your picture Gary.

I don't know if any of this means squat, just an observation.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 20, 2016, 08:29:48 PM
Something else that I was told is a clue.   The factory style rods are all coarse thread, while the aftermarket Hurst rods tend to be fine thread.

All of mine are coarse thread.

So even the ones on that shifter with the numbers you mentioned are coarse thread?

Do the look the same as other 69 rods? Same thickness?
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 20, 2016, 08:32:01 PM
Yeah they are all coarse thread, but I don't know if that's really a solid clue, just what I was told.

They are configured the same way as the other 69 rods I have (all in line)  But I didn't bother to check the thickness, didn't know that might be different.  Now you have me wondering.

Sounds like I'll be diving back under that car again, lol
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: m22mike on January 20, 2016, 10:15:22 PM
The long rod, 3-4 shift is fine thread. BB and SB.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: 69Z28-RS on January 20, 2016, 10:33:13 PM
The long rod, 3-4 shift is fine thread. BB and SB.

I went back to my high res photos... and what Mike asserts is true on my shifter rods..  ie.  The long 3-4 rod has fine threads, the others are coarse thread.

But this does beg the question:  WHY???
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 20, 2016, 11:16:12 PM
Aftermarket rods use different mounting ends - on the shifter end. X33RS do you post a pic of the ends? The rod with the D stamp may be an original GM. I will try to figure out what for.

Most 67/68 rods do not seem to be stamped with numbers. Some have letter stamps. 69 appears to vary, as does the finish.

In 69, Z28 and SS350 used the same rods for the Hurst 4 spd shifter.

CRG has been working on a shifter report.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: X33RS on January 20, 2016, 11:36:20 PM
Okay went back out and looked at my Dec 68 shifter, you are right, the 3-4 rod is fine thread and the others are coarse.  Duh....that's what I get for taking a quick glance before, lol.

Bryon, I tried to google those 2 numbers from the rods on the later shifter the other night and get absolutely nothing, nothing on Hurst's sight, just zilch.
Do you want a pic of the ends of the Dec 68 shifter or did I do that already??  Are we talking about the other one?

I'll check for just a letter stamp as well, that seems familiar for some reason.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 21, 2016, 12:42:19 AM
Pic of the ends of the rods on the late 69 shifter would be good. Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: 69Z28-RS on January 21, 2016, 02:51:33 AM
OK.... I found a pix I took the other day and zoomed into the rod thread area and cropped it.... This is the pix I used to confirm that the long rod (3-4) did have fine threads vs the other 2 rods with coarse threads.  I think you can see this yourself.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: m22mike on January 21, 2016, 01:48:07 PM
The long rod, 3-4 shift is fine thread. BB and SB.

I went back to my high res photos... and what Mike asserts is true on my shifter rods..  ie.  The long 3-4 rod has fine threads, the others are coarse thread. And note on OE rods there is only a single jam nut.

But this does beg the question:  WHY???

My guess is that because the 3-4 adjustable rod end is the only one that is internally threaded, it was done this way to allow for a finer adjustment when one revolution was made.
Mike
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: bcmiller on January 21, 2016, 02:20:06 PM
Mike - seems like a good reason to me.

Gary - the rod ends look correct for original GM.
Title: Re: Hurst shifters
Post by: 69Z28-RS on January 21, 2016, 03:13:37 PM
Mike,

That makes sense to me also...  I noticed the different mechanism, but hadn't thought about that approach meaning that adjustments would have to be made in complete rotations.. :)

Good stuff!   Sure helps to have some experts to answer our questions.. :)