CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: dale_z28 on January 13, 2016, 03:55:07 PM
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I'm interpreting the data on CRG as N607164 being the last February Camaro. If I'm correct, my car (N606932) would have been built on that last day, since it's a mere 232 away.
Anyway, that's huge for me, since now it appears my car AND my 3 kids were all born on the 28th day of the month - just different months!
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I had a Z11 vin of 610431. It was a 2D car.
Dean
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I had a Z11 vin of 610431. It was a 2D car.
Dean
Hmmm. Maybe someone can shed some light on that. Sure it's not a 3D?
I see now that the Pace cars might have ran at the end of February, so possibly not included in the VIN numbers ending at 607164 as I thought I understood.
So now I'm wondering when my Z was built
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My car is also 02D. VIN N610048.
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Read this
The list below is Chevrolet's documentation of the end-of-month VIN for the GM assembly plants.
* Due to several limitations the VINs in this list will not necessarily correlate exactly with either a specific calendar day or the build week on the cowl tag. The data for some months (especially May and June 68 at Norwood) deviate significantly from actual build dates, while other months correlate well.
The above was taken from the link below - 2nd paragraph.
http://www.camaros.org/geninfo.shtml#HowMany
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You should be able to order your data from NCRS if you want to find out the shipping date.
https://www.chevymuscledocs.com/index.php
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I had a Z11 vin of 610431. It was a 2D car.
Dean
Hmmm. Maybe someone can shed some light on that. Sure it's not a 3D?
I see now that the Pace cars might have ran at the end of February, so possibly not included in the VIN numbers ending at 607164 as I thought I understood.
So now I'm wondering when my Z was built
Pretty sure I know the answer to this. There were no 3A cars. Trim tags went straight from 2D to 3B. All the cars from 607xxx to 614xxx that should have been tagged 3A were tagged as 2D.
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Theres two things to consider when looking at the cowl tag date and the reported last GM VIN number.
1. The GM number is a snapshot in time, its the last car leaving the building at the end of the 2nd shift on the last calendar day of the month. At that point in time there are still another 2 1/2 to 3 days or so of cars (2500 to 2700) on the line all the way back to the beginning of the Fisher side of the plant. IF the last calendar day of the month also lined up with the change of build weeks (like its a Friday) then the very first car way back on the Fisher side of the plant that was little more than a firewall would also have an 02D (or whatever the build week was) on the tag.
2. Fisher scheduled build weeks while generally running from Monday to Friday (or Saturday), they did not line up with the actual calendar weeks. For example if February of 69 ended on a Friday (it actually did) then there was at least 2500 more 02D tag cars on the line. For every day before the last day of the month being on a Friday add another 912 cars with the same body tag date on it.
I personally believe that the 02D tag did not get changed on Friday 2/28 like it should have, but instead stayed into the next week. There are lots of oddities as far as which calendar week corresponds to build weeks, with missing weeks, weeks that ran long as well as trying to fit holidays and extended work weeks into the calendar while taking into account that the factory could not build more than 4560 cars over a five day work week. Haven't been able to fit all the weeks together yet.
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n612961 for my 02d z/28
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I have a 02 D Z 28 N610464 as well
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I guess I should share why it's important to me to know the build date, even though I'm struggling with determining if it's worth $50 to know: My birthday is February 26, and all my kids were born on the 28th day of (different) months. So it's the "cool" factor, is all. I have the window sticker and know my car was delivered to Jim DeWar Chevrolet (New Albany, Indiana, if I remember correctly), so as far as I know, the only info I could obtain would show the ship (and most likely the build) date from Chevrolet. I'll probably do it someday, but until my car is done and sitting in my driveway, I've got better places for the money.
Thanks for all the responses, especially explaining the lack of 03A, that explains a lot!
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My X44 with N611150 is a 02D also....
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Theres two things to consider when looking at the cowl tag date and the reported last GM VIN number.
1. The GM number is a snapshot in time, its the last car leaving the building at the end of the 2nd shift on the last calendar day of the month. At that point in time there are still another 2 1/2 to 3 days or so of cars (2500 to 2700) on the line all the way back to the beginning of the Fisher side of the plant. IF the last calendar day of the month also lined up with the change of build weeks (like its a Friday) then the very first car way back on the Fisher side of the plant that was little more than a firewall would also have an 02D (or whatever the build week was) on the tag.
2. Fisher scheduled build weeks while generally running from Monday to Friday (or Saturday), they did not line up with the actual calendar weeks. For example if February of 69 ended on a Friday (it actually did) then there was at least 2500 more 02D tag cars on the line. For every day before the last day of the month being on a Friday add another 912 cars with the same body tag date on it.
I personally believe that the 02D tag did not get changed on Friday 2/28 like it should have, but instead stayed into the next week. There are lots of oddities as far as which calendar week corresponds to build weeks, with missing weeks, weeks that ran long as well as trying to fit holidays and extended work weeks into the calendar while taking into account that the factory could not build more than 4560 cars over a five day work week. Haven't been able to fit all the weeks together yet.
Wow!! Great explanation, thanks. Cleans up some questions I've had on how that really worked. I understand just a small bit about how line work of this massive scale really works and flows. I worked at Playtex for years and ran a tampon making machine with a ton of working parts (old converted cigarette machines) that was about 60 feet long so I got to see from start to finished product. One man, consistently well over 100k tampons in an 8 hour shift from one machine, and there were 18 of those and if something locked up or when the machine crashed, as we called it, it was down from an hour to a few days on the outside, even that was a nightmare. Can't even imagine what it was like on the a car build line.
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That's a helluva lot of tampons... :)
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You have to remember that the assembly line was over 2 or 3 miles long in these plants. So if you were a Fisher guy sticking cowl tags onto the firewall on a Friday the last one you attached at 1 minute to midnight (end of second shift) had a long way to travel before it rolled out the other end of the plant. The guy that came in on Monday AM pulled the next days cowl tags with the new build week coded on them and started attaching them to the next firewall on the line. Probably didn't happen exactly that way every week, as there were probably a few cars that didn't get on the line by the end of shift on Friday due to delays, or production stoppages during the week so there was probably a few of the previous weeks tags left for the first few cars on Monday but it would be a minimal number. So that last 02D (in this case) tag hung on the firewall at 1 minute to midnight on the previous Friday still had 2 or 3 days or so of travel time thru the factory to reach the end of the line and out into the parking lot.
Also the GM guy assigning VIN numbers was somewhere in the middle of the entire line, but the guy recording the last one made for the end of the month report was all the way at the end as the cars left the building on their way to the parking lot, or shipping point lot. The official birth date of these cars from the NCRS paperwork is when they were delivered to the parking lot and turned over to the shipper for delivery.
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Mark said: in part....." ... The guy that came in on Monday AM pulled the next days cowl tags with the new build week coded on them and started attaching them to the next firewall on the line. ..." ...
I don't know what Mark intended, but this statement makes it sound as if the 'production week' was assigned during the actual build process right before the tag was applied to the car, and I don't think that is correct.
The build week was 'estimated' prior to production initiation as part of the planning process. The example Mark cited is not the reason a build week is incorrect. The cowl tag information is coded into their system beginning with the order of the car, and the build week got coded into the data once the production was *planned*.
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The body number was assigned when the order was accepted at the plant (were talking 69's here) but it may not have been scheduled for a particular build period at that time. The tag was stamped once probably a week before the actual construction of a particular car was to take place.
Production was scheduled at least 1 week (maybe more) ahead to ensure all the required parts would be available at the plant to meet the requirements of the vehicles to be built that week (or day) So a week (or so) ahead of actual start of assembly the 4560 cars that could be built in a week were scheduled and the parts needed to make them scheduled for delivery. Chevrolet always drove production order and determined generally when in time a car would be built, Fisher scheduled that production based on part availability and construction constraints. The cowl tags for those 4560 cars were stamped with all their info including the assembly week (which if done on a week by week basis would never need to be changed or even looked at when stamping out a batch of tags, and sometimes they just forgot to change it from one batch of 4560 cars to the next) and stuck them in boxes, or some kind of containers and sent to the Fisher plants scheduler. The Fisher scheduler determined their actual production order on a day to day basis based on their physical constraints. He would try to group like colors together to save time swapping out paint systems, but then he needed to space out convertibles no closer than 10 to 15 body numbers apart, vinyl top cars no closer than about 7 bodies apart, and anything else that took extra time to install had to be spaced out. So he had 912 tags and UIOT sheets for cars to be built the next day (or a few days hence) given to him in some random order when he started, and when he was done they were all sorted out and reordered to be the most efficient for Fisher. Similar to Chevy locking the cars in order, this is how fisher did the same thing for their ide of the plant. The tags and UIOTs were delivered to the beginning of the line for installation on the firewall and off the body went down the line.
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That's a helluva lot of tampons... :)
Just think for a moment...18 tampon making machines with the capability to produce up to 150,000 tampons in an 8 hour shift x 3 shifts x 5 days, add weekends, Saturday AND Sunday to that which was mandatory when orders of Walmart magnitude came in. Playtex only has the one plant that makes them....we stayed busy, none stop, even during breaks somebody filled in. The machines never stop, except holidays and weekends with no work load, and of course the massive crashes those machines can have.
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Well this topic took an interesting turn.
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Well this topic took an interesting turn.
Hi Brian...yeah it did, but you know a lot a people don't get that experience working with that kind of production. Whether its cars or tampons there is a lot going on during a production run of any kind and how the process works. I for one enjoy hearing how things work no matter what it is...good conversations ensue.
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It was just an observation. :)
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It was just an observation. :)
And a good one too...I was catching up on topics I missed this past year and a half and found a topic that went off somewhat like this one did in Decoding/Numbers http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=13772.0 It's great to read about these kind of experiences from others that seems to blend into our hobby in one way or another. Makes for some good reading.
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Just think of the scheduling and parts control that went and continues to go into an assembly line as complex as building a car up from several thousand parts that all have to get on the right car at the exact time the body rolls by it assembly location. The main line never stops unless its a real disaster. Think of the main assembly line like the body of a 2 mile long centipede, with hundreds of pairs of legs. Every part that gets added to the main body flows down those individual legs (feeder lines) towards the body. For components that change from vehicle to vehicle they have to be placed on those feeder lines in a specific order to get to the front of the line just as the body they are supposed to go on or in arrives at that assembly station.
Building cars is not a process where the line worker sees a car coming to his (or her) station that needs a blue steering wheel installed, and he runs off somewhere to get the correct wheel. Its already on the rack ready to be picked and place on the car with a minimum of movement, and virtually no hunting around for it. If a part needs to be assembled before it goes on or into the car, it is done either at the far end of the feeder line in a sub assembly area, or while traveling down the feeder line on its way to the car. The amount of parts scheduling and material handling that goes on in these plants is incredible, considering most of it was done manually back in the day. Its actually a wonder that cars came out of the plants with all of the parts that the customer actually ordered.
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My grandfather retired from Fisher Body, he had some funny stories. If I remember right my father was telling me that he was a "door assembly" man.
My father was also friends with another guy named Roger in the tri-5 chevy club who retired from the Norwood plant in the mid 80's and I was lucky enough for him to take us there and take an entire tour of the plant with access to places normally off limits, back in about 1986 or 87, I can't remember the exact year but I do remember about a year later they shut that plant down. I just remember is was so cool watching the cars roll through the assembly process, watching them drive the cars inside the plant, racing around, driving over rumble strips, squealing tires, revving the crap out of them, I can remember a guy standing there with a clip board with the car idling in front of him, revving the car to the moon, then jotting something down on the clip board, then doing it again. The whole thing was a very cool thing to see. Never forget it.
Edit: Also if I remember correctly, getting back to my grandfather, when he worked at Fisher Body I think he worked at a Fisher plant that was out on Route 4 towards Fairfield and wasn't on the Norwood assembly plant property at that time. I'll have to ask my father for clarification but it sounds like from John's description that Fisher Body and Norwood were connected or one in the same and the cars rolled through the wall for the assembly process after paint. With that said then I guess at some point the 2 were consolidated sometime before 1967 to streamline the process.
I need to test my fathers memory and see if he remembers where and what my grandfather did exactly, but I do remember driving by the building on Rt. 4 that my father used to tell me that was the old Fisher Body plant. I would guess that was before they moved it to the Norwood property.
Anyone else here old enough to have memory of this??
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There was a Fairfield fisher body plant located adjacent to the railroad tracks right where the railroad tracks cross RT 4, north of Symmes Street and east of RT 4 It was built in 1948, and closed in 1988. It was right where Bentley World Packaging is located today. Don't know if any of the current building is part of the old plant or not, but it was 1.3M square feet in size. Don't know what bodies they built there. I would guess it was 15 miles NNW of the Norwood Plant.
This is a little writeup about the plant in the butler county history page.
Fisher Body operated in Fairfield Township and Fairfield from 1947 through 1988. Plans for the plant west of Dixie Highway (Ohio 4), north of Symmes Road and east of the railroad were announced by General Motors April 6, 1945, before the end of World War II. When it opened in September 1947 it was part of the Fisher Body Division, producing parts for GM vehicles. Plant expansions were started in 1954 and 1960, after which the complex included 1.5 million square feet of operations on 108 acres. Employment rose to the 4,200 to 4,500 range in the early 1950s and fell to 2,500 before the plant closed. After August 1984, it was known as the Hamilton-Fairfield stamping plant of the Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group (CPC). Nov. 6, 1986, GM announced corporate cutbacks which included the closing of 11 plants employing 29,000 workers. Operations at the Hamilton-Fairfield plant ceased Aug. 31, 1988, with about 100 GM personnel remaining until the end of December 1989 when the property was acquired by Panda Motors Corp., whose plans for its use never materialized. Panda placed the complex on sale in May 1992. During the lifetime of the plant, the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad (later Chessie and CSX) serviced the GM operation from its Wayne Yards, which was located just south of Symmes Road
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I'd like to thank all who have contributed to this thread. I really enjoy the sidelines and even the subtle humor regarding tampon manufacturing (I, for one, have never considered the process. When I got my first real job in a grocery store we would trick each other into stocking them by referring to them as "candy bars").
While working at General Tire and Rubber (later GenCorp Automotive) in the various departments involved in molding/manufacturing Corvette body panels, I enjoyed learning about the industry. Just this last year my wife and I toured the Corvette Museum and assembly plant, both were very interesting and enlightening. One thing was impressed on me, every operator on the assembly line was a sort of "specialist" in the installation of their part of the production. WE on the other hand, are trying to be "expert" at the whole car, at least as it pertains to our personal vehicles. I am very thankful for all the knowledge we have combined here, and I than each of you for sharing.
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There was a Fairfield fisher body plant located adjacent to the railroad tracks right where the railroad tracks cross RT 4, north of Symmes Street and east of RT 4 It was built in 1948, and closed in 1988. It was right where Bentley World Packaging is located today. Don't know if any of the current building is part of the old plant or not, but it was 1.3M square feet in size. Don't know what bodies they built there. I would guess it was 15 miles NNW of the Norwood Plant.
This is a little writeup about the plant in the butler county history page.
Fisher Body operated in Fairfield Township and Fairfield from 1947 through 1988. Plans for the plant west of Dixie Highway (Ohio 4), north of Symmes Road and east of the railroad were announced by General Motors April 6, 1945, before the end of World War II. When it opened in September 1947 it was part of the Fisher Body Division, producing parts for GM vehicles. Plant expansions were started in 1954 and 1960, after which the complex included 1.5 million square feet of operations on 108 acres. Employment rose to the 4,200 to 4,500 range in the early 1950s and fell to 2,500 before the plant closed. After August 1984, it was known as the Hamilton-Fairfield stamping plant of the Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group (CPC). Nov. 6, 1986, GM announced corporate cutbacks which included the closing of 11 plants employing 29,000 workers. Operations at the Hamilton-Fairfield plant ceased Aug. 31, 1988, with about 100 GM personnel remaining until the end of December 1989 when the property was acquired by Panda Motors Corp., whose plans for its use never materialized. Panda placed the complex on sale in May 1992. During the lifetime of the plant, the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad (later Chessie and CSX) serviced the GM operation from its Wayne Yards, which was located just south of Symmes Road
The building is still there. It's been updated on the outside so it looks a little different than it did when it was Fisher. I believe it was a stamping plant. In fact, I think sheet metal parts stamped with an "H" were manufactured there.
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My 609XXX vin, 02D COPO's BE 12 bolt is dated too late in Feb to have been built in Feb.The car must have been built at least a few days into March.I believe William thought it was assembled March 4th or 5th.Thanks for the good info,Mark.
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There was a Fairfield fisher body plant located adjacent to the railroad tracks right where the railroad tracks cross RT 4, north of Symmes Street and east of RT 4 It was built in 1948, and closed in 1988. It was right where Bentley World Packaging is located today. Don't know if any of the current building is part of the old plant or not, but it was 1.3M square feet in size. Don't know what bodies they built there. I would guess it was 15 miles NNW of the Norwood Plant.
This is a little writeup about the plant in the butler county history page.
Fisher Body operated in Fairfield Township and Fairfield from 1947 through 1988. Plans for the plant west of Dixie Highway (Ohio 4), north of Symmes Road and east of the railroad were announced by General Motors April 6, 1945, before the end of World War II. When it opened in September 1947 it was part of the Fisher Body Division, producing parts for GM vehicles. Plant expansions were started in 1954 and 1960, after which the complex included 1.5 million square feet of operations on 108 acres. Employment rose to the 4,200 to 4,500 range in the early 1950s and fell to 2,500 before the plant closed. After August 1984, it was known as the Hamilton-Fairfield stamping plant of the Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group (CPC). Nov. 6, 1986, GM announced corporate cutbacks which included the closing of 11 plants employing 29,000 workers. Operations at the Hamilton-Fairfield plant ceased Aug. 31, 1988, with about 100 GM personnel remaining until the end of December 1989 when the property was acquired by Panda Motors Corp., whose plans for its use never materialized. Panda placed the complex on sale in May 1992. During the lifetime of the plant, the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad (later Chessie and CSX) serviced the GM operation from its Wayne Yards, which was located just south of Symmes Road
The building is still there. It's been updated on the outside so it looks a little different than it did when it was Fisher. I believe it was a stamping plant. In fact, I think sheet metal parts stamped with an "H" were manufactured there.
You are correct, I just got ahold of my father and he told me it was a stamping plant for doors, seats, frames etc....My father said Hamilton, I said Fairfield, but shucks that's just about the same thing, haha.
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There was a Fairfield fisher body plant located adjacent to the railroad tracks right where the railroad tracks cross RT 4, north of Symmes Street and east of RT 4 It was built in 1948, and closed in 1988. It was right where Bentley World Packaging is located today. Don't know if any of the current building is part of the old plant or not, but it was 1.3M square feet in size. Don't know what bodies they built there. I would guess it was 15 miles NNW of the Norwood Plant.
This is a little writeup about the plant in the butler county history page.
Fisher Body operated in Fairfield Township and Fairfield from 1947 through 1988. Plans for the plant west of Dixie Highway (Ohio 4), north of Symmes Road and east of the railroad were announced by General Motors April 6, 1945, before the end of World War II. When it opened in September 1947 it was part of the Fisher Body Division, producing parts for GM vehicles. Plant expansions were started in 1954 and 1960, after which the complex included 1.5 million square feet of operations on 108 acres. Employment rose to the 4,200 to 4,500 range in the early 1950s and fell to 2,500 before the plant closed. After August 1984, it was known as the Hamilton-Fairfield stamping plant of the Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group (CPC). Nov. 6, 1986, GM announced corporate cutbacks which included the closing of 11 plants employing 29,000 workers. Operations at the Hamilton-Fairfield plant ceased Aug. 31, 1988, with about 100 GM personnel remaining until the end of December 1989 when the property was acquired by Panda Motors Corp., whose plans for its use never materialized. Panda placed the complex on sale in May 1992. During the lifetime of the plant, the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad (later Chessie and CSX) serviced the GM operation from its Wayne Yards, which was located just south of Symmes Road
Yep that's it. My grandfather retired from there, but my dad can't remember the year.
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1. The GM number is a snapshot in time, its the last car leaving the building at the end of the 2nd shift on the last calendar day of the month.
The "location" of the GM number is unknown and unverified. It is believed to the end-of-the-line count (because that logically makes sense), but it varies wildly some months, for unknown reasons.
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HI EVERYONE!!! Just want to say to, that I own a 1969 Camaro SS, build date 02-D, N611808...........
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I'll add in. My 02D N605415 has a ship date according to NCRS of Thursday, 2/27/1969 and shipped to Bill White Chevrolet Co., Tulsa, OK. 1969 was a leap year so Friday, the 28th was the last day of the month. This brings up a question for my 67 to help understand how cowl tags where dated in line with actual production days. My 67 is L110515 with a cowl tag date of 10C; and according to NCRS, a ship date of Tuesday, 10/25/1966, and shipped to Van Chevrolet Co., Shawnee Mission, KS. With Halloween being the following Monday the 31st, was Monday the only build day that would of had a 10D cowl tags attached to the firewall, while Tuesday's production would have been the first 11A tags attached or would the first 4 days of November also have stayed with a cowl tag date of 10D and Monday, November 7 would have had the first 11A cowl tags installed on firewalls.
Loren
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Usually a build week number on a tag was supposed to be a full 5 days worth of production. So a lone Monday (or any number of days in the week that started in one month and ended in the next) at the end of one month carried its end of the previous month build week over to the rest of days in that the week, then the next months build weeks started the following Monday.
But nothing is written in stone, and sometimes that last lone Monday in one month may have been part of the first build week of the next month. All we know is that the Cowl tags do not exactly follow the calendar. Fisher did not appear to change the cowl tags in the middle of a production week, whatever code it started with was carried thru the entire week. Fisher was free to code their tags to suit their needs and their accounting system. Also LA was a GMAD plant that operated in a completely different manner than Norwood did with it separate Fisher and Chevrolet operations.
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That is interesting and I am glad I asked. So if there are no 10D LOS tags that are known, it is very likely that the 31st was the beginning of 11A tag attachment. However it also could be that what ever the last serial number recorded at the end of 2nd shift on Monday the 31st for October production, then had many Camaro's with 10D tags following it until the end of the week when the last 10D tag would have been attached to a firewall that would have then come off the assembly line sometime the following Tuesday the 8th or Wednesday the 9th.
Loren