CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: Bryan302 on October 02, 2015, 08:19:28 PM
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For restoration purposes, Is there any way to replace or rebuild the lock cylinders and keep your original key codes? Basically, can the cylinders be made or rebuilt to the key and the original numbers?
Also, somewhere I read that the newer or repop GM code E and H key blanks had changed from the original type. What are the differences in the way the blanks are made now than the original? Is there a way to identify an NOS or original GM code E and H blank?
Thanks,
Bryan
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I have known a few lock smiths that can rebuild them. Not sure about key blanks
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Any real true locksmith can re-key any lock cylinder to any key or key code you have. Its their stock and trade.
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Not sure how many now a days have the parts on hand to re-key a 40 year old lock. I know 10 years ago I had one go to guy because many shops, only dealt with the newer stuff.
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Good reading here: http://www.camaros.org/keysandlocks.shtml
Yes there are differences between the series, but 69 only used E/H. Call the locksmith first, if he needs parts then all you need to do is buy the new E/H lock set and bring them with the old E/H keys, they take about 5 minutes to re-pin the cylinder.
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Good reading here: http://www.camaros.org/keysandlocks.shtml
Yes there are differences between the series, but 69 only used E/H. Call the locksmith first, if he needs parts then all you need to do is buy the new E/H lock set and bring them with the old E/H keys, they take about 5 minutes to re-pin the cylinder.
Excellent advice! A side note: Observe older E/H keys had a type of milled or cut slot that went back about where the rectangular part of the key started. The much later service replacement E/H keys have a slot that does not go back as far and can cause issues with key fit up to the original lock set. If you see one of each type the difference is quite evident.
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Thanks Chick and 69pace, that was just perfect information!
69pace, so, if a new lock has been cut already and has its own code, are you saying a lock smith can change that to my key code? Can he also change the case that has the code stamped in it?
Thanks,
Bryan
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My local locksmith has not only recoded cylinders for me, but also used the key codes (which are stamped on the side of the cylinders) to make new keys to the original codes. You can buy uncut year-correct key blanks on eBay, and have them cut to the original cylinders. My guy even took a later year key blank and extended the key section back to make it work on the early cylinder. Good locksmith is worth his weight -
First thing I did when I brought the '68 Z home was to pull all the locks and find the original key codes - door, trunk and ignition were originals, glove box was changed. (original key codes were listed a lot of times on dealer invoices, like my X77). One code was on my '68 invoice, the other was not completely shown.
Regards,
Steve
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Thanks Steve!
Ok, I see that I slightly mis-worded my question a bit. Let me try again. From Steve's and 69pace's explanation of re-pinning or recoding the cylinders to your old original key code, I understand. Here's what I'm concerned about, If you take a NOS or new lock cylinder to use to recode, and the locksmith does his work. Now, you have a NOS lock cylinder, recoded to your original code, but it STILL has the NEW KEY CODE on the case, doesn't it? Can the locksmith take the NOS lock, recode it to my code and put the new guts in my old case with my original code on the outside? And, my chrome bezel is ugly and will not do for restoration, can this piece be changed also?
My GM parts man hooked me up with original E/H blanks today, and cut two pair to my original code. This new key helped some, but there is way to much wear in the inside! It works, but it is sloppy.
Thanks,
Bryan
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To answer both questions: Yes an existing cylinder can be changed to the code of any other key-way in that series.
And I would guess the case number can be ground off and a new key-code stamped in its place.
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It's just the height of the tumblers... cutting keys from codes is easy... if you have a set of correct year code books.
Replacing the tumblers is not a very difficult operation and you can probably pick up the parts on EBAY.
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I was able to clean my tumblers and took them to my local Chevy garage and they simply cut me new keys from the numbers on them. I only had 1 ignition key nothing else. A previous poster was correct if you have a good local lock smith, they should be able to do the whole job pretty easy. My suggestion was only if you have good tumblers and no keys. Usually they are just really dirty and are not broken but rather gummed up to the point of not even turning!
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Yes, locks can absolutely be recoded. I am a certified master locksmith and have taken more than a few courses offered by Len White, Hank Spicer, Gilbert Garcia and a host of other top level instructors back in the 80's. I used to do a lot of these cars and locks back then and still have a couple cases of NOS locks left over from my early days as a locksmith.
About 15 years ago I started doing up lock kits for guys cars through eBay and sold a couple hundred sets for Chevelle, Novas and Camaros. One of these days I might go out into my storage shed and pull the rest of them out and start selling them again. I also have a few dozen boxes of the old NOS key blanks as well. These ones still have the original knock outs in the heads, unlike all the repop stuff made and offered today. I think I have most if not all key ways available still. I did post a couple threads on locks for TC years ago and think people are still using those to help R&R their ignitions and glove box locks.
Any competent locksmith can recode your locks with the only small issue being the door locks. Once you cut the original cap off to re-key it, you have install the newer styled cap that crimps on in 4 places once it's recoded. The originals were crimped at the factory and sealed all the way around the lock case. I have been told that NCRS judges locks and if the cars have been recoded with new caps installed, they deduct a point for that.
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Go to your storage shed and get that stuff out! :)
It would e nice to have some old original E/H keys with the knockouts still in them!
John
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Any competent locksmith can recode your locks with the only small issue being the door locks. Once you cut the original cap off to re-key it, you have install the newer styled cap that crimps on in 4 places once it's recoded. The originals were crimped at the factory and sealed all the way around the lock case. I have been told that NCRS judges locks and if the cars have been recoded with new caps installed, they deduct a point for that.
If you are very careful removing them, you can re-use your original caps.
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Go to your storage shed and get that stuff out! :)
It would e nice to have some old original E/H keys with the knockouts still in them!
John
Yes, like John, I will be getting in line, setting up my tent, camping out and waiting so I, too, can get my key blanks! Thanks.
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I got these at the local dealership yesterday for the 69.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/speartech/image1%2077.jpg) (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/speartech/media/image1%2077.jpg.html)
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/speartech/image4%2010.jpg) (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/speartech/media/image4%2010.jpg.html)
It's been a long time since I've seen old originals so I'm not sure if anything looks out of place with these. It seems like maybe the "E" and "H" are larger than they used to be?
They work perfectly in the ignition, doors, trunk, and glove box.
John
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How much were they? What were the part #'s?
Did they punch them to match your core codes or cut them to match your existing keys?
Thanks!
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I can't help much on the details Kurt. I buy a lot of parts there so he didn't charge me for the keys.
He has drawers of the key blanks separated by letter.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/speartech/image1%2078.jpg) (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/speartech/media/image1%2078.jpg.html)
They use a computerized key cutter.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/speartech/image2%2033.jpg) (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/speartech/media/image2%2033.jpg.html)
It will cut keys either by entering the key code; it will also duplicate an existing key. It also has a few other modes of making a key also.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/speartech/image3%2018.jpg) (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/speartech/media/image3%2018.jpg.html)
So no price or part number. He is just well stocked with keys and the machine to cut them. :)
I try to take pictures of everything anymore! I think back of all of the things I wish I had a picture of, and now it's so easy to do. ;D
John
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John do they also have the earlier keys?
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John do they also have the earlier keys?
X2.....looking for the Rochester "D" and Briggs & Stratton "C" keys.
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Jerry I may have an extra. Let me check and if I have one, I will let you know.
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I don't know but will find out.
John
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Jerry I may have an extra. Let me check and if I have one, I will let you know.
Bryon, rechecked my blanks and I have a set of B & S with knockouts for the "C" & "D" but I don't have any Rochester blanks. My car has a B & S "C" and a Rochester "D" so I only need the Rochester "D" for an exact match. Being I couldn't find any Rochester keys, I had settled on using the B & S but have not given up on finding the Rochester.
Thanks.....Jerry G.
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John do they also have the earlier keys?
Just a note that I purchased key blanks from our local dealership 30 years ago and C & D blanks had the same format as the 69 key John showed. Meaning you could purchase keys with the C & D stamping but they had the basic design/look as the 69 key blanks John is showing. I think I may have some older key blanks for 69 that show the groove cut farther back in which people have told me can cause key to fit properly issues.
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Jerry, sorry but I don't have any of the one you need.
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John do they also have the earlier keys?
Just a note that I purchased key blanks from our local dealership 30 years ago and C & D blanks had the same format as the 69 key John showed. Meaning you could purchase keys with the C & D stamping but they had the basic design/look as the 69 key blanks John is showing. I think I may have some older key blanks for 69 that show the groove cut farther back in which people have told me can cause key to fit properly issues.
I would be interested in seeing the groove difference.
John
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Jerry, sorry but I don't have any of the one you need.
Bryon....Thanks for the effort. As I said earlier, I have this set of OEM B & S keys that will work just fine.
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Anyone have any "D" or "A" & "B" key blanks? I have a few "C's" that I would trade..
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I would be interested in seeing the groove difference.
John
John....don't if this will help but here are a couple of links to the early (H1098C) as opposed to the later (P1098C) that will interchange in a pinch.
H1098C.....http://www.key-men.com/shopping/show_key.php?catnum=H1098C-OEM (http://www.key-men.com/shopping/show_key.php?catnum=H1098C-OEM)
P1098C.....http://www.key-men.com/shopping/show_key.php?catnum=P1098C-OEM (http://www.key-men.com/shopping/show_key.php?catnum=P1098C-OEM)
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Thanks!
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I got these at the local dealership yesterday for the 69.
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/speartech/image1%2077.jpg) (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/speartech/media/image1%2077.jpg.html)
(http://i887.photobucket.com/albums/ac71/speartech/image4%2010.jpg) (http://s887.photobucket.com/user/speartech/media/image4%2010.jpg.html)
It's been a long time since I've seen old originals so I'm not sure if anything looks out of place with these. It seems like maybe the "E" and "H" are larger than they used to be?
They work perfectly in the ignition, doors, trunk, and glove box.
John
John, here are some key blanks purchased approximately 30 years ago. On originals keys the groove was always cut farther back for some reason and I was told that newer keys with the shorter groove sometimes do not fit well. Not sure if that is accurate but the person telling me had personally had the issue.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Keys/DSC_0802_zps9njonwyu.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Keys/DSC_0802_zps9njonwyu.jpg.html)
My old Curtis key from our 68 Corvette.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Keys/DSC_0801%202_zps453xyc40.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Keys/DSC_0801%202_zps453xyc40.jpg.html)
Pair of old NOS B&S keys cut for our 68Z.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Keys/DSC_0800%202_zpso1x419oj.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Keys/DSC_0800%202_zpso1x419oj.jpg.html)
These are the type of C & D key blanks I obtained 30 years ago. What I referred to earlier that later service replacements were not like what was used back in 68.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Keys/DSC_0799%202_zpsbgktipwl.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Keys/DSC_0799%202_zpsbgktipwl.jpg.html)
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Interesting. Yes, it's obvious those grooves go back farther.
My keys work fine in all of the locks on my car, but maybe due to tolerance stackups, etc., that might not be the case on all cars.
Thanks for the pics.
John
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John do they also have the earlier keys?
I checked yesterday and he does not have any of the earlier style keys.
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I went out to do a little digging to find all my old locks and keys but have only found one box so far. The other is buried in the C-can somewhere and that will likely wait until spring before I get around to searching more. While in there I pulled out some NOS locks for my 69-Z that are coded with original knock outs, and some early coined keys that were made for GM by B&S. These are what I used to use for duplicating and all have the small angled keyway sections stamped onto the blades. All of the newer ones from Ilco and Strattec and elsewhere have the larger fonts. I have another box with a few dozens sets of original blanks with blind knockouts but have not found those yet.
The Curtis key blanks are just early knock offs of originals and we used to have a lot of problems with those keys back in the 70's and 80's so we stopped using them and stuck to original GM and/or the Briggs & Stratton products. I bought hundreds and hundreds of locks back then and thousands of key blanks as my shop did a lot of the auto locks throughout the 70's to 80's. Most of what I have left is from that period but all are the same as the original and early GM stuff since it was all made by B&S. These were sold in bulk to the B&S certified locksmiths and I was one of them in my early days. Fitting new locks for my 69 will be the first set I have touched in 12 years or more so I'll see how rusty I have become. Now if I can just find my code cutters?
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/DBL_NKL/IMG_3191.jpg)
Original 69 coded E/H lock cylinders. Made by B&S for GM
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/DBL_NKL/IMG_3193.jpg)
Early GM Blanks (high nickel) w/o knock outs
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/DBL_NKL/IMG_3192.jpg)
Notice the key sections are angled like the originals with the above locks.
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Interesting. Yes, it's obvious those grooves go back farther.
My keys work fine in all of the locks on my car, but maybe due to tolerance stackups, etc., that might not be the case on all cars.
Thanks for the pics.
John
John, did some checking with the friend who told me the newer style keys with the groove not going back as far can possibly cause a problem with that type of key working in the door locks but not an issue with the ignition.
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At some time before I bought this 69 over 13 years ago, it got a new passenger door. Wrong glass codes, yellow not garnet under the door panel, and the key never worked. Back then I simply bought new locks and tossed the old locks in a box.
Fast forward and now I'm putting the car back together with new paint, and I took the old locks to get polished with the rest of the chrome. I had forgotten that the original key never worked in the pass door. So today I took the locks and original key into locksmith, and she told me she can rekey it, but she will destroy the faceplate. So I said just give me a key for it. After making me the key, I said it was a shame it wasn't a GM key. So she dug through her box and pulled out an E blank. Not the same as my original key, and the E is rotated, but it otherwise looks original (even though I have different keys for the doors.
I would be very interested if someone could actually change the lock without destroying the faceplate.
Top key is the original.
Some extra pictures - my camaro in the paint shop. Another week and all that nos chrome I've been hoarding for years will finally have a home.
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Unless your going for National judging at 975+ point levels, why would it matter that your face plate for your lock was changed? It's not like it's an imported piece from China? All the GM B&S face plates are the same as the factory issue materials, only the stakes on the back on the face cap have four 1/4" tabs which are easier to crimp in the field. Once it's installed, nobody can tell the difference anyways.
IMO, get it rekeyed so it's at least coded correctly.
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I went out to do a little digging to find all my old locks and keys but have only found one box so far. The other is buried in the C-can somewhere and that will likely wait until spring before I get around to searching more. While in there I pulled out some NOS locks for my 69-Z that are coded with original knock outs, and some early coined keys that were made for GM by B&S. These are what I used to use for duplicating and all have the small angled keyway sections stamped onto the blades. All of the newer ones from Ilco and Strattec and elsewhere have the larger fonts. I have another box with a few dozens sets of original blanks with blind knockouts but have not found those yet.
The Curtis key blanks are just early knock offs of originals and we used to have a lot of problems with those keys back in the 70's and 80's so we stopped using them and stuck to original GM and/or the Briggs & Stratton products. I bought hundreds and hundreds of locks back then and thousands of key blanks as my shop did a lot of the auto locks throughout the 70's to 80's. Most of what I have left is from that period but all are the same as the original and early GM stuff since it was all made by B&S. These were sold in bulk to the B&S certified locksmiths and I was one of them in my early days. Fitting new locks for my 69 will be the first set I have touched in 12 years or more so I'll see how rusty I have become. Now if I can just find my code cutters?
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/DBL_NKL/IMG_3191.jpg)
Original 69 coded E/H lock cylinders. Made by B&S for GM
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/DBL_NKL/IMG_3193.jpg)
Early GM Blanks (high nickel) w/o knock outs
(http://i1218.photobucket.com/albums/dd418/DBL_NKL/IMG_3192.jpg)
Notice the key sections are angled like the originals with the above locks.
That's what I seem to remember from the old original keys; the small, crooked E and H.