CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: barsteel on August 24, 2015, 07:42:14 PM
-
Hello -
I've given up trying to solve the problem with my right rear brake locking up by going at it piecemeal. Since I want the car to be as correct as possible, and most of the brake parts on the car should be replaced anyway, I bit the bullet and ordered a correct date coded booster and disc brake coded MC for my car, along with all the missing brackets for the prop. valve and splitter block, along with all new steel lines and hoses.
Question - how should the MC be prepped for a correct engine compartment? Is it painted black, or left as a bare casting. If it's bare, would painting it with cast iron paint be a no-no? If it's painted, are the bleeders painted as well? Anything else I should know?
I've heard that the booster should be left the original gold finish, so that's what I'm going to do, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks...
Chris
-
Hello -
I've given up trying to solve the problem with my right rear brake locking up by going at it piecemeal. Since I want the car to be as correct as possible, and most of the brake parts on the car should be replaced anyway, I bit the bullet and ordered a correct date coded booster and disc brake coded MC for my car, along with all the missing brackets for the prop. valve and splitter block, along with all new steel lines and hoses.
Question - how should the MC be prepped for a correct engine compartment? Is it painted black, or left as a bare casting. If it's bare, would painting it with cast iron paint be a no-no? If it's painted, are the bleeders painted as well? Anything else I should know?
I've heard that the booster should be left the original gold finish, so that's what I'm going to do, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks...
Chris
The Master Cylinder should be black. Might want to start using that search key both here and team Camaro as many of these answers can be easily found. No the bleeders are not painted as the casting was painted and then it was machined and assembled. So where the tab is in the front where stamping took place and where the two brake lines attach on the side are bare. (examples of machined areas). Correct on booster!
-
I've seen many survivors that I believed to be bare, or rusted through whatever paint on them. Jerry's book said either or, so in my mind its not cut and dried...... Guess that part of his book needs to be amended if the consensus is black paint
-
The for sure survivors I've looked at have had the master cylinder painted. According to the latest new addition NCRS 68/69judging manual it states the following: "The master cylinder was painted a low-gloss or foundry black. A semi-circular machined area at the front of the casting was machined after painting and so should be natural finish. The flat at the front has PG stamped in it for power brake units and DC for manual brake units." And "The boss that the brake lines thread into is machined flat after painting and will be natural finish." JohnZ has stated “I was there in the assembly plants in the 60's, and Delco-Moraine painted the master cylinders and brake calipers black prior to machining; I never saw one unpainted.”
I purchased a late May69 power booster/master cylinder from Jere Stahl that had been given to him from Delco Moraine Engineering. On the production parts list sheet it calls for it to be painted black (see item 24).
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/ProductionSheetfromStahlUnitpurchased_zps8f6e8def.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/ProductionSheetfromStahlUnitpurchased_zps8f6e8def.jpg.html)
-
Hard to argue line 26, thanks Chick.
Guys, On my own car, I have never seen any evidence that it was black, nothing in a crevice or cavity and,yes, I know the M.C. is original to the car. I certainly do not have the agglomeration of documentation that Chick possesses. I would certainly give Chick 's knowledge credence.
-
After 30, 40, or 50 yrs with brake fluid dripping over the paint... is it any wonder that some cars have no paint left? :)
-
Another point to consider is the vintage Car mags w/ engine compt photos. Most if not all (Hate to say that ever) the Master Cyl appears black, or Black & rusty from spillage of brake fluid & casting rusting.
Ref:
-
It was the cheapest paint and stayed on about a week.
If you look in Corvair trunks, the master often will still have paint.
-
Opps, just to correct a typo, the sheet I posted is from May68, not May69. In the lower right corner.....
-
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/superslow/tn_3mann3engine_zps8a3aa943.jpg)
(http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12420.0;attach=15118;image)
-
Great information. I have always thought they were natural.
-
So the calipers should be black also?
-
Yep.
-
I am happy to read this now than after they are back on the car.
-
I would have to concur about the black paint, there is still remnants on my original master cylinder.
-
The for sure survivors I've looked at have had the master cylinder painted. According to the latest new addition NCRS 68/69judging manual it states the following: "The master cylinder was painted a low-gloss or foundry black. A semi-circular machined area at the front of the casting was machined after painting and so should be natural finish. The flat at the front has PG stamped in it for power brake units and DC for manual brake units." And "The boss that the brake lines thread into is machined flat after painting and will be natural finish." JohnZ has stated “I was there in the assembly plants in the 60's, and Delco-Moraine painted the master cylinders and brake calipers black prior to machining; I never saw one unpainted.”
I purchased a late May69 power booster/master cylinder from Jere Stahl that had been given to him from Delco Moraine Engineering. On the production parts list sheet it calls for it to be painted black (see item 24).
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/ProductionSheetfromStahlUnitpurchased_zps8f6e8def.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/ProductionSheetfromStahlUnitpurchased_zps8f6e8def.jpg.html)
Ok, now I'm a bit confused. I ordered the MC and booster from Camaro Specialties (www.camaros.com), and their website, confirmed in a conversation with owner Bob, says that the '67 - '68 front power disc brake/rear drum MC should be coded "WT".
Is that the case?
Thanks...
Chris
-
67 & 8 are WT and 69 is US.
67 & 8 casting is also 346 and 69 is 309
-
http://www.camaros.org/suspen.shtml#Brakecomp
Paul
-
Chris I think Chick's reference may be to Corvettes, as the quotation is from the NCRS Judging Manual.
-
Chris I think Chick's reference may be to Corvettes, as the quotation is from the NCRS Judging Manual.
Exactly Tim! Probably should have not put that portion of the NCRS Corvette verbiage in. Sorry Chris! A side note, I find NCRS is a great tool to check on what is considered "normal", or "generally found", as they have been at it for a long time and have a great tool with judging manuals. Calipers are like the master cylinder, painted casting and then machined. :)
-
That book sounds like it may be a good read. Is that NCRS judging manual in a PDF form we can download for free or do the NCRS Corvette guys charge $100 for it?
-
That book sounds like it may be a good read. Is that NCRS judging manual in a PDF form we can download for free or do the NCRS Corvette guys charge $100 for it?
Corvette Carlisle is this later part of week (will be there Thursday thru Saturday) and I believe the judging manuals are 50 or $55 per copy. Its a 1" plus volume loaded with information so I think its worth it. I have both the 67 and 68/69 Corvette Judging Manuals.
-
The unrestored Camaros that I've owned and Vintage Certified have had remnants of flat black paint. As been mentioned the machine surface operation was done after paint and should be bare/natural.
-
Steve that's an interesting observation. Is it your opinion that the paint was flat from initial application, or possibly a higher gloss that has been lost over the years to appear flat today?
-
It's pretty flat, via the protected confines of Corvairs.
-
Thanks Kurt
-
Kinda funny how things escalate incorrectly. How many times have you seen chalk marks and such that are totally bogus and incorrect? My theory is someone had a car at a show that had a nice presentation albeit technically "wrong". Then, onlookers gawk at the car, go home and make/change their car to appear like the one at the previous show....and then another group sees THAT car at cruise night and the snowball effect gets started. Who was the first person to INCORRECTLY install the dreaded FORD fan sticker on a CHEVY fan shroud? See what I am getting at here?????
-
Kinda funny how things escalate incorrectly. How many times have you seen chalk marks and such that are totally bogus and incorrect? My theory is someone had a car at a show that had a nice presentation albeit technically "wrong". Then, onlookers gawk at the car, go home and make/change their car to appear like the one at the previous show....and then another group sees THAT car at cruise night and the snowball effect gets started. Who was the first person to INCORRECTLY install the dreaded FORD fan sticker on a CHEVY fan shroud? See what I am getting at here?????
That's why this site and forum are such a great resource.
-
This photo, from the Chevrolet Quality Brake Service pamphlet dated July 1968, confirms what was said previously, that the master cylinder was painted black and prior to machining.
-
This photo, from the Chevrolet Quality Brake Service pamphlet dated July 1968, confirms what was said previously, that the master cylinder was painted black and prior to machining.
Is that a photo or an artist's rendition?
-
Photo.
-
Haven't any of you seen how fast cast iron rusts it its set out in the environment without some kind of finish on it? Especially if it gets scratched up (like if you piled a bunch of them into a container for shipping). Rust forms in about 2 days in a moist environment. Wouldn't do to have rust showing up on a car fresh off the shippers trailer when it got to the dealers lot.
-
I don't doubt they're painted black. The photo stovebolt posted just looked like a rendition to me.
-
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/bertfam/68Z.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/bertfam/media/68Z.jpg.html)
Paul
-
Rendition theory buster!
-
Rendition theory buster!
Theory buster? Just a comment that I thought it looked like an artists rendition. Not an accusation etc...
-
I'm in the "painted black" camp. However, and no offense, I know plenty out there prefer rust, er, patina.
Whatever cheap, thinned out black paint they shot the parts with would have soon surrendered to the harmful effects of brake fluid. Theses cars are pushing 50 years old.
-
A question about the Production Parts List above: Is item No. 25, Part No. 5452322, the brass check valve seat? For cars with front and rear check valves, is the part number the same? Thanks, Joe.
-
A question about the Production Parts List above: Is item No. 25, Part No. 5452322, the brass check valve seat? For cars with front and rear check valves, is the part number the same? Thanks, Joe.
Yes, it is - the machined cavity BEHIND the seat contains the check valve and spring on drum brake systems.
-
Thanks John. Are both front and rear brass check valve seats the same?
-
If you are referring to the brass seat itself that is extracted after drilling into it, they should be the same for F&R.
This past thread shows a replacement I found for mine. This is for a 5460346 MC so the size will have to be measured against what you already have. I suspect they may be the same however being the MC was mass-produced.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10475.msg79402#msg79402
Mike
-
Also this thread: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=2938.0
Steve
-
Originals off of the 04C Z28 survivor
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/3SPFxgi0NWZ4LiYrI_8ugU1VtF4hWgbVa6dwM9hf21ZeSDiHoDbrLJmeMEEZAMF5pAhsciOivMMbBqWei_NLzt5W_ojkK_PBK3y9hHwEsDHJ-HAaIIhNL82Na6vlqpW2CzJ7QKIumwPCugJ0zBnu9i5y29qJERNGDCCbo2ihfpojQhB7Qkdiue9WN8zOjSzbze1a8Bkl0NSw_zLwkdRGJwkfAmNblXidXR9ItC8-s028m64B_JUazGt2xDLWUFjnf4X3MC6nbcL105rjQVyU5qaW89vkPjwgzyGlZOTWmVuVhW12PeM96t2AViKCW0Ufe25D8SsHbxK3qKY6CJ8BP4Mi90XVDLjryHI0k_1f2ItvCtmnFlwZdx27p7Gkn7rWUGLDunth0Dsyb0gfCbChm7kpUZevKPjFPy-MUdqYjBcu3UMapJlKb9P1x4D3GtiQHVG0Ij5c2FIs_rgw_uA84cFeMa19ibK36DAd-pkziZBCrxdEgxcXpioDvxIK09GdBGi2E9JTYQcJRFQ9r00CzdfYVtm-XpjJ0CNZ9QNzyXthFcMuNbC50uvLnXYc9Q_goAvCxBDv2aWoH_FClPKmc6yNe76C6CGdytRRzqrrExtZFHkf4UgB=w1914-h1436-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8TzhD1dzDkarexrDZe10L6YiGs7MD8CJznfxCLpewLN3syboiUrzXlH_ot3oSKNStPO3SLbsvCJEjuw47iBoi8FH4AYyxJox-ggQM4_OT0fOfqnswEj2qCkhiH94eOpKKsMQbW9ZNIUptmrqyPmHJSH_CX2mqSGt8efFve5-mOw3I1BnW5Ue2d2b6jxRO2_wE4Dx3hmWEk7YmfYtBjcGqeoqp5QS-A-TASo6t3paErwjXfji2V8iW3Rr4cisF9Y6t7QV04l8CZLPBNbm9qRA3ovU3eOS0kAzH3ByX2YA752bv8mRTF-ktIx79w364dkUlT13Yi8wfEG474phbl4glr3KU82UROggEvcsQl2hi8qjZrruJTSlxlsV-pllZq-JLi-FnuIZ3UvpMz9Ccbi8UPeKjY4iyxvSp3iYxLjBD8p4BahrJ8YxJlwXlvos0kuctoAs374kfzQKyYxPhXWuOg5D6eHpmEMfyRiYbpMTlbY8JlUvGnRUaEroryr5kv-o1KPPNfa8XTK7IfXMS2WSCHzJzx1LaYG-QukQRiEVAGGD96WJ-amEzbHIouUuzWk8B-T9QzKO6-pBmIIT9KlX0ihY_E9G2IV9uoe8vWIvdgIQpd0sNDI4=w1914-h1436-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RA7gVx2_ra37WrRzkel3Zn3PD9docAUjVN8-2rwTQQ2JDmamF4K7XtY_N4n23M61tH8PPsubyjhoD_Io--TKm-ZoH3Eha2KdA-GqepQDFyn6GNvicf5HKsA9jf61yfQRbXWaYdPJSbmApDeBq90adCidq2XOkuWNAwTkuRGk1PzmjdK8ucoWOX_hy3TZM03o5vzl-sQNBSQgtthoKFg11k1BPH5nGKFMgB4bDcX9fU8Gc1CGCYrZpDXAiFxJYGJZaNQ0hW2-X_ukhv9OcgMPsgipDUhE58hv2e9s3mPV339-b-MPJyafcE1hekXsp5jwi2spxWZ7n89nHMuWGyy3J_qLCobevq-d8lqugiwFU88zXNjYbbCAQPD4kgddQD_5CO_nrRtm4Ij8_KEBj7psOpPuxPt_FC5mjuo1V8GMQpMxOAWh3hH13BUMGFMeRKiDXmsVwDUaEkB701Ab05SvYn1ILNggdKakC_pJmm3gd4r0CjPHCoywifVKoqlNzLltE6ubfdY9R3KhvQz-MwkHq3Dcw11s8hHfwC6t22Ixw-j1v2nWuUoXtjgdp1GyABi5ZJkNPr_x1uZhxJGyJm6btu2xkYE3LsAxzE05dWTHRo0GmlVVqlIx=w1077-h1436-no)
-
NOS master cylinder as seen in this thread over on the Yenko website...
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/628152/re-nos-camaro-and-chevelle-546 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/628152/re-nos-camaro-and-chevelle-546)
-
NOS 4-piston caliper halves. Painted and then the machining is done.
-
Awesome. Thanks Jon for posting those pics!
-
You're welcome, Bryon.
-
And it's either a cheap black paint or poor prep, but the paint quickly 'fails'.
Few survivors have it - mostly Corvairs where it's in the trunk.
-
I think I remember JohnZ posting that it was the cheapest black paint they could get.
-
The for sure survivors I've looked at have had the master cylinder painted. According to the latest new addition NCRS 68/69judging manual it states the following: "The master cylinder was painted a low-gloss or foundry black. A semi-circular machined area at the front of the casting was machined after painting and so should be natural finish. The flat at the front has PG stamped in it for power brake units and DC for manual brake units." And "The boss that the brake lines thread into is machined flat after painting and will be natural finish." JohnZ has stated “I was there in the assembly plants in the 60's, and Delco-Moraine painted the master cylinders and brake calipers black prior to machining; I never saw one unpainted.”
I purchased a late May69 power booster/master cylinder from Jere Stahl that had been given to him from Delco Moraine Engineering. On the production parts list sheet it calls for it to be painted black (see item 24).
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/ProductionSheetfromStahlUnitpurchased_zps8f6e8def.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/ProductionSheetfromStahlUnitpurchased_zps8f6e8def.jpg.html)
Should have added pictures of the master cylinder of the power booster/master cylinder assembly I purchased from Stahl's when they were going out of business. The unit sent from the Delco Remy Engineering Group to Stahl's (Jere RIP) appears to be what they were going to use for 1969 model year and again the paperwork is dated end of May 1968. The paint is so bad it seems like it just rubbed off in some areas just from handling/moving over the years. This is a great example as its how it would have been put on back in the day.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_1093_zpssavb6lnu.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_1093_zpssavb6lnu.jpg.html)
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_1092_zps5mmbukb2.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_1092_zps5mmbukb2.jpg.html)
Note there is not stamp on the machined pad and the other #'s stamped on have to do with engineering info also on the paperwork attached to the assembly.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_1094_zpsl3u4kxxs.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Brake%20Related/100_1094_zpsl3u4kxxs.jpg.html)
-
I purchased a late May69 power booster/master cylinder from Jere Stahl that had been given to him from Delco Moraine Engineering. On the production parts list sheet it calls for it to be painted black (see item 24).
(Should be noted as item 26) ;)
-
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/bertfam/68Z.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/bertfam/media/68Z.jpg.html)
Paul
1968RSZ28,
Is this a restored car or an original 1968 photo? The reason I'm asking is because the ink stamp on the diverter valve and also the battery doesn't appear to have the ENERGIZER wording and the lack of yellow paint on the DELCO.
-
1968RSZ28,
Is this a restored car or an original 1968 photo? The reason I'm asking is because the ink stamp on the diverter valve and also the battery doesn't appear to have the ENERGIZER wording and the lack of yellow paint on the DELCO.
It's a photo from GM of a brand new '68 Z28. The date of the photo is unknown, but the date on the fan shroud is 12-9-67.
Paul
-
(http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h52/bertfam/68Z.jpg) (http://s61.photobucket.com/user/bertfam/media/68Z.jpg.html)
Paul
1968RSZ28,
Is this a restored car or an original 1968 photo? The reason I'm asking is because the ink stamp on the diverter valve and also the battery doesn't appear to have the ENERGIZER wording and the lack of yellow paint on the DELCO.
That is an original picture as far as I know Dave. I believe that battery has the "energizer" wording but due to the angle of the picture its not seen. Also, from what I've learned IMHO the Y55 & Y77 batteries did not have yellow lettering from the factory but service replacements did like this one. The Y55 in our 68Z I left the yellow script on for now as it looks crisp and nice but its coming off.
(http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z117/1-2-b-67L89/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Electrical/DSC_1096_zpsuznak2ut.jpg) (http://s192.photobucket.com/user/1-2-b-67L89/media/68%20Camaro%20Z28/Electrical/DSC_1096_zpsuznak2ut.jpg.html)
-
So thats two issues that I need to research / address....Thanxs
-
I would also add that your pics from Skips 69Z with the original battery, did not have any yellow on delco or energizer. So without the yellow, would be assembly line correct. So I agree that it looks like a factory photo, and would be fresh off the assembly line.
-
Chick,
It could be from the angle, but then again maybe not. It appears to have enough space under the EL to possibly see some part of the ENERGIZER......IDK