CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: 69Z28-RS on May 27, 2015, 12:39:47 AM
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I've got an open order in for a new reproduction Pilkington windshield, to replace my existing tinted/shaded PPG WS dated 69 (but thought to be an early replacement - and with a wiper scratch/scrub mark). I have it on 'hold' to confirm the details to be as accurate a reproduction for my late '69 car as possible. My original glass is all tinted SoftRay (except for the PPG W/S). The PPG W/S glass is tinted and shaded.
I opened a thread on TC (while CRG was down) in attempt to identify if the current Pilkington Classic repro tinted/shaded windshield is an accurate reproduction (or not).. and I've gotten some answers but not all. The Pilkington classic repro has a 'blue shaded' area on the green tinted glass. The marking they will use on my late windshield seems to be correct as best I can determine, but the 'blue shaded' area is an open area of concern. if the blue shading was not used in late '69, then I'd rather leave in my scrubbed PPG W/S. Does anyone have a known original LOF windshield in their car which is tinted and shaded? I'd love to see photos of the marking on the WS and the shading and your estimation of the 'tint' of the shaded region.
Thanks in advance!
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I received some information today from Rick Celenza who now owns the black Z28-RS car previously owned and reported on by a couple of our CRG members. It has it's original LOF tinted/shaded windshield. Information and photos from Rick confirm the coding on the LOF windshield (consistent with that reported in the Glass Report and by others owning original tinted glass after the introduction of the DOT 15 marking. He and his photos confirm the blue shading band on '69 tinted LOF windshields. My current 69 dated PPG windshield also has the blue shaded region at the top.
So to summarize what I've learned about original LOF windshields from later in the '69 model year. Green Tinted, blue shading, with the following code (I will have the TV date code for August of '69 etched. An example of the etching is shown below (etched on the outside of the windshield, viewable from inside the car).
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Gary, I just replied to your thread at TC, but if we are talking about the car Lloyd recently sold, from memory that is an 04C build, more mid than later in the '69 model year. If that car's windshield has a blue tinted screen, do you know the date code on it? Can you post the picture(s) that Rick sent you so we can see the shaded band?
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I think I can do that.. based on an assumption that Mark Cell desires to help us all... :)
I mentioned already that I checked my current windshield (what was in my car since I purchased it in '76.. it's a '69 dated PPG tinted/shaded WS and it also has the blue shaded region)..
Mark's windshield date code I think is IV although the glare in the photo puts this in the 'I think' realm.
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Thanks Gary. That looks like 'LV' which is March 69 and a good date for an 04C built car.
Funny, the cars I've seen with very obvious blue bands must've had clear windshields, as the band on Lloyd's old car's screen looks much greener in the photos in James/Lloyd's thread, like this one (click on the link if you want to see the image, but be warned it's a big image, so I didn't embed it with HTML img tags due to the forum image size policy):
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img571/192/96a7.jpg
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You're right about the 'LV'... my first look at it got me the 'IV' which is not accurate.
The shade band does not appear 'blue' when viewed normally, but when a white reflective background is placed behind it, you can definitely see the 'bluish' band as compared to the green windshield. My PPG windshield (in my car when I purchased it in '76) and dated '69' has the same appearance. I never realized this until beginning to check out the 'blue shade' description of the Pilkington repro windshields.
In the photo below is a pix of my 'wiper scrub marked' PPG windshield (dtd 69); the shade does not appear blue, it just looks darker, until you back it with a white background.
PS. Having the shaded area to be blue makes sense when you realize that mid-day glare predominantly comes from the blue band of the sun's rays (which is why the sky appears blue! :) )
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Your Soft-Ray glass will also help to protect onlookers from that bright orange interior too! ;)
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:) You're right.. just think how bright it would be thru clear glass if the interior weren't faded... ! :)
Sorry about that photograph.. I usually keep some old black sheets thrown over all that orange vinyl!! :)
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Gary, if you do end up ordering the reproduction Soft-Ray windshield, I'd love to see a picture or two of it, and hear your thoughts on quality/fit of the glass, and of the etching. I have all original LOF Soft-Ray to go in my car when done, except the windshield, so keen to know how it works out for you.
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I've been waiting a few months for Pilkington to get some new ones made.. they apparently make them 10 or so at a time, and they just got 10 a couple of weeks ago. I have made an order for a TV dated Softray Shaded windshield (TV matches my all original remaining soft-way glass). I think I've mentioned that the windshield that has been in the car since I've owned it is a 69 dated PPG - but reading the crg glass report, it seems to have the PPG replacement markings, so apparently it was an early replacement glass, and it has some wiper scrub marks so I decided to put in an LOF that matches my other glass. I think the scrub marks will polish out, so I'm going to attempt to save the PPG windshield (just in case) :)... I'll let you know when I get it... and will take some photos.
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Apparently we make about 100 a month in our plant in Mexicali. I am sure some of them are for other suppliers. If you can feel the wiper marks with a finger nail you can distort the windshield badly trying to polish them out. If smooth to the touch be careful go slow and don't leave the polisher in one spot. Heat is the enemy.
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I picked up the Pilkington repro LOF windshield for my Camaro today (less than a week since I 'turned them on' to etch the logo). It was well crated and Yellow Freight did not break it.. :)
It will be awhile before I have it installed, but I thought a couple of photos might be of interest.
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OK.. Here's a windshield photo after removing from the crate (temporarily before I put it back for storage for awhile).. and a photo of the LOF Shaded Soft Ray Logo...
If anyone sees any issues that I am not seeing, please let me know... the bottom two lines look a little soft in the photo but that may have been from glare on the glass when I took the photo. The TV date matches the other original glass in my car.
PS. I haven't cleaned the glass.. just removed it for the photos, then put it back in it's protective crate.
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Looks nice.
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If anyone sees any issues that I am not seeing, please let me know... the bottom two lines look a little soft in the photo
G.W., Looks pretty good to me. I am certainly not an authority on glass and have never owned or paid attention to "late" glass, but my own original WS logo in my Dec. car is "a little soft" or faint and difficult to read, IMO.
Most guys, here, are "magnets" for information. That said, we throw around terms like LOF freely assuming all know what that means. So, I am providing a link to the LOF company, Libbey-Owens-Ford, so others may benefit. Thanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libbey_Owens_Ford
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It would be interesting to see yours next to an original side by side for color comparison of the tint and glass. I am not sure if a camera would do the trick, or if there would be any noticeable differences. I have also heard the new windshields are a bit thinner compared to an original? Not sure if this true for the Camaro, but I did initially order a replacement windshield for my 64 C/10, and the replacement was noticeably thinner.
Interesting side note: I had both windshields in a shed and a tree came down and demolished the shed, the original windshield survived, the new one did not. So the original got put back into my truck when done. I guess it was meant to be :D
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I've never noticed a 'tint' difference in the reproduction glasses (for any of my cars - I have reproduction glass for several of my older fiftie's Chevys). This glass also has a very natural appearing tint, but that won't be affirmed until I can install it in the car.
I've also heard that the repros are 'tinner'.. I was told perhaps 1/32" thinner, and that was one of the first things I looked for after opening the crate. Appearance wise, it did not appear thinner, but I've not yet mic'ed it.. when I remove the old one to install this one, I'll try to remember to mic both of them and report on any differences.
All my other glass is factory soft ray, but of course it is all tempered rather than laminated. I'll let you know via photos if it appears different once installed.
Note: Pilkington Classic Glass has the rights to reproduce the LOF (Libby Owens Ford) glass and their logos (per Pilkington classic). I bought this one via Randy Keith in Ohio. My cost was $305 shipped to the most local shipper (where I picked it up). It's more expensive to ship to a residence.
Pilkington contact: Randy Keith, Pilkington Classics, ph 800-848-1351,
email: Keith, Mark R <Mark.Keith@nsg.com>
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I hope you are able to have it side by side an original at some point and let us know visibly the differences (if any). Were you happy with the etching and the color of the band at the top?( I also heard there is a variance blue vs green tint) but there could have been at the factory as well I suppose
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Interesting idea, but if you have to put them side by side to see any differences in tint, who's going to notice when installed....
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Well thats why were all here right ? ( Reading about the new replacement windshield ) We all want to make sure its money well spent, and matches up to where you can't notice. ;)
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I just don't think you'd be able to tell once installed, unless installing a piece of repro tinted glass next to a piece of original tinted, for example door and quarter glass on the same side.
But agree that it'd be interesting to see how close they are; perhaps there was even tint variation between production batches of original glass?
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I know I am late to the party
my observation from original glass
JV dated 06A(c)
the shaded area is an amber color? maybe from old age?
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Hold a piece of white paper behind the shaded region, and shine a flashlight or other light on it from outside the car.. that should clearly show the green tinted windshield, and the shading color at the top...
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images:
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I see what you mean on color. Would it have changed over the years from being in the sun?
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I was at Pilkington Friday and picked up my windshield. I have the other in the house and will compare. Mine had enough deep scratches they wouldnt polish out. My back glass was actually the worse.
I got to see how the guy date codes them. He has a small rubber like stencil with several dates and attaches it to the glass and gives it a blasting with a fine media. I bet it doesnt take 5 minutes. The blaster had 2 walls of his booth covered in muscle car pictures. Nice guys
The place is huge and they have regular car glass there too. Classic glass is the last dock of the warehouse and it was dock 24 to give you an idea how long it was.
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My front is just about dead on to what Chris posted above. The last line on new might be a tick wider.
the rear is a little different and I will let Randy know. I will post my original first. Some reason there is a dash in as2. Spacing needs corrected also. I will get the calipers and measure them also.
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Wouldn't a windshield be AS1 while the sides are AS2?
do you have the AS mark on the upper passenger side? should be where the shading starts
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well if your first pic is the original, I would say the "solid tempered" line is actually smaller, and it looks like the "safety plate " letters don't have as many breaks in them. Also the spacing looks a bit different. BUT I have no idea since I have only seen a couple, if the originals were not uniform when the etching was done.
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I measured the windshield and the old one was around .280 and the new one is .255. seemed to vary a little around the edges on both.
The back glass for the old one is .201 and new is .190.
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Thanks Gary for directing me to this thread which answered several questions. I'm gathering that Pilkington is doing a good job on their reproduction windshield glass and etching.
I need a windshield for a 69 coupe 11C 68 build date code. There was some mention of late glass, but not what that means? Mine should not have the DOT, pre-Jan 69. Is there any difference in the blue shade band between early and late 69 glass?
My original rear glass is dated UX (July 68). This is 4 months prior to build. How much prior to build would windshields be dated? I was planning to use YX for October 68, does that seem normal?
Thanks -Andy
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I'm glad you found some useful information... :) I spent quite a while collecting information before deciding to order the reproduction windshield. I'm happy with the 'look, color, markings' on it, but haven't yet installed it, as I've been working on other things. I wanted to get one while I could, as there's no guarantee they will always be available..?
The only thing I recall being changed in the windshield between 'early' and 'late', was a marking change.. which I think is pointed out in that thread. No mention of any color changes in tint or shading throughout the production year that I recall.
Re your date: My car's original glass was dated for Aug '69 (for an 18 Sept production date car), but I've also other cars where the glass predates the car's production by 3 to 6 months. It is possible that with your original glass (dated July '68 for your Nov car), that due to suppliers prebuilding parts for early production, that earlier cars have more of a difference in the dates than for later cars (such as mine), but I'm only guessing on that. I'd think you couldn't go wrong by choosing a windshield date that matched your other original glass (which is what I did when ordering my windshield).
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I need to replace the glass on my 1969 RS/Z (Norwood 2B) project as the windshield isn't original and the balance of the glass isn't in good enough condition to warrant restoration. In particular I need the location / measurements for the AS1 etching on the passenger side of the windshield when equipped with a tinted/shaded windshield. I am assuming the etching is applied to the outside of the glass for viewing inside. I was planning to order the replacement glass from ECS in Chesterfield MO who does etching in-house. Thanks in advance.
(photo - CRG)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7843/46785531751_852301b5c3_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ehh5Ba) (https://flic.kr/p/2ehh5Ba) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
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Anyone?
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Lloyd,
I bought my 67 convertible windshield from Auto City CLassic at https://www.ebay.com/str/AUTO-CITY-CLASSIC?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
They even did the LOF w/date (inside etch and readable from the inside so it looks reverse when looking from the outside). I can measure that AS1 and the AS1 from the other 67 coupe (still original windshield) if interested. Not sure if 69 was different. I looked at ECS but they were too costly. The LOF etching on the new glass is excellent.
Mike
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Lloyd,
I bought my 67 convertible windshield from Auto City CLassic at https://www.ebay.com/str/AUTO-CITY-CLASSIC?_trksid=p2047675.l2563
They even did the LOF w/date (inside etch and readable from the inside so it looks reverse when looking from the outside). I can measure that AS1 and the AS1 from the other 67 coupe (still original windshield) if interested. Not sure if 69 was different. I looked at ECS but they were too costly. The LOF etching on the new glass is excellent.
Mike
Thanks Mike, does Auto City do glass etching in-house? Would you post a photo of one of the window etchings they did, I'm curious how they duplicated the LOF logo and the spacing. Thanks for the offer to measure the AS1 mark on your '67. Its unlikely there is a difference in location however I might be better off with a measurement from a '69 to be safe.
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Just get a hold of Pilkington Classics. They can do what you need.
Rick
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Just get a hold of Pilkington Classics. They can do what you need.
Rick
Thanks Rick, I have what the manufacturer provides however I'm trying to confirm those coordinates from an original windshield.
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Lloyd the AS1 mark with the arrow ILLUSTRATES that from below the arrow the GLASS is AS1 above the arrow it is AS2 GLASS.
As far as I know AS1 AS2 are visibility ratings. because of the band of tint the glass is AS2 above the mark.
Yes I realize this doesn't tell you where it would be on an original in terms of a measurement, however if a tint band is narrower or wider would make the rating point of the glass change.
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Lloyd the AS1 mark with the arrow ILLUSTRATES that from below the arrow the GLASS is AS1 above the arrow it is AS2 GLASS.
As far as I know AS1 AS2 are visibility ratings. because of the band of tint the glass is AS2 above the mark.
Yes I realize this doesn't tell you where it would be on an original in terms of a measurement, however if a tint band is narrower or wider would make the rating point of the glass change.
Yes, thanks James, from the CRG Research Report it states: "Shaded: added to tinted GM OEM windshields when they included the upper, dark (non-AS1), tint band. For regulatory purposes these windshields are only AS1 glass below the tint band. " Wanting to confirm the exact AS1 mark location on the windshield.
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Here are some measurement photos I received from the current owner of my former 10 10 car (4C Norwood RS/Z) that I'm posting for future reference:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7836/45925040475_a4322b911c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2cYeQwF) (https://flic.kr/p/2cYeQwF) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7905/39874595473_5bef1a0ce9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23KzJ2p) (https://flic.kr/p/23KzJ2p) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
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Lloyd,
I measured the original 67 04B LOS coupe windshield and the measurement is 4 5/8" from the top of the glass edge to top horizontal line between A S1. Interesting enough though is when I looked closer at the tinted area itself, only the very top 2 - 2 1/2" thereabouts appeared to have a green/blue tint and the rest of the shaded area below is much lighter and extends down slightly above the A S1 line and looks almost a faded yellow. Maybe the California sun did that, just a guess. But, it definitely was not a consistent shade in that area downward. The AS1 is etched from the inside and the LOF is etched from the outside, both reversed when viewed from the outside.
I did some searching and I found this HBC windshield to show the smaller tint band that looks just like my coupe. Hmmmmmm....this is the first time I have noticed this difference in tint thickness. http://www.heartbeatcitycamaro.com/store/product/14732/1967-1968-1969-Camaro-%26-Firebird-Coupe-Tinted-Windshield-Imported-Reproduction/
So, based on the HBC windshield that is advertised for 67-69, was the tint band thin?
The windshield I put on the convertible from Auto City has a blue/greenish hue and a consistent tint that runs from the windshield top to slightly about the A S1 line. I checked the coupe trim tag and it has the W in group 1 (same for the convertible). I'll be able to post some picture of the Auto City etching when I can get to the convertible. As far as I know, Auto City etches in house.
Mike
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Thanks for the post Mike. Your theory on the current condition of the shading on your 67 LOS car’s windshield could be accurate. The link to the HBC windshield glass seems to be for their off-shore, and non-factory correct version which they poiitely caution as “not recommended for show cars” so likely not representative. The shading band on my former 4C Norwood car is a consistent blue and tapers off just above the AS1 mark. Would be very interested to see the Auto City glass and their etching work.
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I contacted Pilkington Classics the other day. Here's some info they told me. 150.00 for a tinted w/s. 50.00 for the markings including the AS1. That would tell me they mark them there. For me they ship from Phoenix to Tucson for 50.00 or I can pick it up myself. When I ask if the glass was made in the USA, he indicated it was North American made.....Joe
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If you are curious what a windshield shipping box looks like....here it is. This is from Auto City but I assume other makers use a similar box.
The box walls are 1/4" thick and the glass edges covered by a rubber edging. This rubber works great as a slip on protector to body panel edges for when assembling a car.
Mike
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This is the etching that Pilkington put on the Glass I bought for my old 69 Z.
I have another Pilkington front Glass in the garage with a logo as well, I will try to get a better photo later today.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ODVnL9NM8pptGWmWmg_6sbZwdnKGrRgLmbbaS-8BIeWZa4hABkejC6VEcWMvQ7LN7CZkAadfiSmXdksgMmCjG0_QneUxUiLuZff0v5RH60etvQNHSGYN9LXezQjQ_UtUoFrf_tmv8Gw0L8_AG2pZf_Mtj3DgrQQ65k3AZ5wE4dG5Jnjep2UQMv2A5AspFlbDqg0N3C_Dk_RtOZvbIfdmDce85EAU75w9jaORO-F2uJFOiUPzDASv_sYYiqPFEJsVLBxkTyYWMv9b5r8iEfrgueu9DQGoXu9qgtVabWsqA2Wk80nbrrQjRB2tkN7FY7vfnAjBBP4ez7x09b9fvY0Re_U5zrTNI_3h6PDqX47iVfsb8zNqq7AbArUH-t2wDIfmCoVqMkn-ICP5foLTpQ2yD4wRs23gYGWk7FVX-mBPzXeWbSD_deNrFlYK_MF40YqwCQozMN5sTgGbbvkWmHNXFowkHDyhoBiwygvrjB1nRY8Ir2imiZ0UJ_D_J7x94BEai9LoxA5Y7QhYp0OYmNYiBraqddWGsynxjzm20-Ce5F4OQVtwWBnLGDxAFj3_cEf_4dkDX394lKPvMha9M-HJVv_hyQpiKDnFcUnm2Qnbv8vikdwgaYhUjU2pEOKMw2DLaK-qwnl1bQhoSoMIiHXvm2JATQ=w867-h1154-no)
To me it looks like the original etchings are done using a stick on mask which creates a HARD edge on the letters whereas the repros look like a paper mask was taped in place allowing grit to work under the mask and the edges are "softer"
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The Pilkington windshields are made in Mexicali Mexico. They produce about 100 a month. Even today windshields are assembled by hand on a moving conveyor. The shade band does have a transition from shaded to clear. The height of the shade band will be pretty consistent but some can be higher above the AS1 or just a bit lower because of the hand assembly.
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I think in this topic is the day I picked up my glass at pilkington. The windshield markings looked real nice. The one on the back glass wasnt exact and they might have changed it. The stencils were like rubber if I remember right and I watched the guy sand blast it. That was like 3 years ago so hopefully my memory is right
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Yes the stencils were cut out of rubber.
Rick
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I was able to get to my car and get a picture of the windshield etching.
At first when I called ECS and they quoted me a price, I opted to go with Auto City Glass because of the lower price and the example of the fonts they (ACG) sent me looked like the ECS fonts posted here for LOF: http://www.ecsautomotive.com/productdesc.php?co=g&id=1
Look at the letters O and S (Soft) of ECS and compare to the Auto City picture below and you can see they are the same type. But, compared to the original 67 LOS glass on my coupe, the O split is in a different position as well as using a different S. The letter A on the Auto City etch is flipped between Safety and Plate. When I do restore the original 67 coupe, that will be my opus and I will see if ACG can correct the letter positions when the stencil is prepared. Maybe ECS uses ACG to do the etching?
Mike
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I did a comparison between ECS' "in house" LOF etching and the original from my former 4C Norwood RS Z/28. Its unlikely that ECS and Auto City Glass ("ACG") collaborate on glass etching as the LOF border differs. Its possible they sourced their templates from the same supplier. I plan to inquire if ECS or ACG is willing to correct their template before I place an order.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7849/46983389391_47007296e0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ezL9MM) (https://flic.kr/p/2ezL9MM) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7824/32041700577_0755fd8e6b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QPq6gp) (https://flic.kr/p/QPq6gp) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156633854@N02/)
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One should assume that LOF, Pilkington NSG has not sandblasted a monogram since the mid 80's. That's when we stopped doing it that way at LOF. Pilkington NSG in Collingwood Ontario. Windshield and backlite monograms were painted on when I started in 1984. Sidelite's we started painting in about 1988. Certainly our die cutters for monograms are long gone as well as the machines to do it. No one stores obsolete equipment for very long. If anyone has original die cutters for monograms it would be Pilkington Classics. Anyone else would not and are trying their best to be correct. Since I have never seen how they used the dies and am now retired I may not be able to ask anyone. It may be difficult and expensive for a supplier to change or replace a die to make it factory correct.
Rick
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I sent the above photo of my (former) original glass etching and the above markup of the sample etching from their web site to ECS who responded promptly they have several other templates and could match my spec exactly...so I plan to place an order and see how they perform. Will post when I receive the order in a few weeks. On their web site they state: " We now offer FACTORY EXACT Date Coded Glass for 1960 1/2 thru 1975 GM vehicles. We have done the research to guarantee that you get the correct logos and print styles, according to your vehicles build date and manufacturing plant".
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So I see guys talking about the different etchings and finding better prices. What are some the prices you guys have paid and did it include the delivery?
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I paid $260 total (includes shipping) in 2017.
Mike
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Mine wasn't a lot more from Pilkington Classic and I think that was
2017 also. An earlier post in this thread gives the exact amount paid shipped to me at a local terminal.
$305 (post 17)... but it was 2015! (How time flies!)..
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If one goes to spring or fall Carlisle I ordered and picked up there to save shipping.
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So.....to this point, I have seen that there are only three vendors that etch the factory logos, ACG, ECS and Pilkington. Is one of these vendors better than the others or are they all equal? Does anyone know where Rick's Camaro get their date coded windshields from?