CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: X33RS on May 19, 2015, 06:32:37 PM
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Or a percentage of total Z28 production might be an easier number to throw out possibly? I'm thinking the percentage is much larger than a friend of mine is telling me.
Are those numbers posted on the site somewhere? I'm sure this has been discussed in detail at some point. If so I'm sorry if I'm wasting someones time, just point me in the right direction please.
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Nevermind, I found something I was looking for that's close enough.
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Well an easy way to narrow it down is take the total number of 1969 Camaros produced (243,085) and divide by number of RS optioned cars(37,733) = about 6.442% X (Z/28) production (20,302) = at least 1308 RS Z/28 cars .
Now one thing to keep in mind is a majority of production were base cars with little or no options, these are the easiest for the salesman at the dealers to move since they have the least options and they are the cheapest. So I wouldn't be surprised if the real number was more like 4000 RS Z/28. A customer that had some money to work with could obviously check off more option boxes...
Here is the website that shows production numbers for 69:
:http://www.thecamaro.com/Production/1969-Camaro-Production-Totals-and-RPO-Numbers.php
Kinda fun to check out the production numbers vs options
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I don't have a solid answer for you, but there is no easy way to do the math.
I would GUESS that at LEAST 25 percent of Z28s were also RS cars. But I have nothing to back that up. They were 2 options that went together more than you would think.
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Well an easy way to narrow it down is take the total number of 1969 Camaros produced (243,085) and divide by number of RS optioned cars(37,733) = about 6.442% X (Z/28) production (20,302) = at least 1308 RS Z/28 cars .
Now one thing to keep in mind is a majority of production were base cars with little or no options, these are the easiest for the salesman at the dealers to move since they have the least options and they are the cheapest. So I wouldn't be surprised if the real number was more like 4000 RS Z/28. A customer that had some money to work with could obviously check off more option boxes...
Here is the website that shows production numbers for 69:
:http://www.thecamaro.com/Production/1969-Camaro-Production-Totals-and-RPO-Numbers.php
Kinda fun to check out the production numbers vs options
The total number of ’69 Camaros built as rally-sports is 37,773. Divided by total production of 243,085 is 15.5%. Still not the best way to look at it as 4,000 or so of the rally-sports were Z10 or Z11. So that’s 33,773/239,085 or about 14%; 2,867 Z/28-RS using statistical interpolation. It’s nothing more than a guess.
I’m with Mr. Miller. After 40 years of involvement with ‘69s to me there is nothing at all rare about a ’69 Z/28-RS and I would not be surprised if the number was 25%.
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Excellent info guys, more than I could find or even hope for. Thanks again.
I was thinking myself that it wasn't all that rare and probably around 20% of Z28 production or there about. That's pretty close to the numbers you guys are figuring here. Either way, it's waaaay more than what a friend is trying to lead me to believe (something like 3% or just a few hundred) I figured there were quite a few thousand made.
I see it's broken down in Jerry's 67 and 68 fact books but I don't see mention of it in the 69 fact book.
Thanks for the link Bullitt, as soon as I figure out how to get that in my browser I'll check it out.
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We also have a link to the production numbers and options broken down by year, cost and production on our CRG page. Here is the PDF link. You can zoom in as needed to make the font display larger.
http://www.camaros.org/pdf/options.pdf
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Ah, thanks Mr. Miller. Very detailed. I haven't seen that page before. I guess I haven't figured out how to navigate the site. I go to the home page and can't really find many options to click around. It appears I'm stuck in the discussion forum section for some reason, lol.
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Well I blew it on the numbers, forgot to factor in the Z10 and Z11. Out of of 20,302 Z/28 production I would still guess about 4000 to 5000 had the RS option, might be as high 7000 though.
thanks for the correction. :)
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Ah, thanks Mr. Miller. Very detailed. I haven't seen that page before. I guess I haven't figured out how to navigate the site. I go to the home page and can't really find many options to click around. It appears I'm stuck in the discussion forum section for some reason, lol.
If you want - go to the main page. http://www.camaros.org/
Then from that main page, you can click on the different areas where text is displayed. For example, there are sections on Exterior, Interior, Underhood, Engine, Transmission, etc. near the top. Then toward the bottom of the page more links such as Technical Articles, Research Topics, About The CRG, etc.
LOTS of stuff to view when you have extra time. :)
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Wow, thanks Mr. Miller. I never knew. My links just bring me to the forums and seems I've been stuck here. I have some reading to do :)
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From my time playing with these cars during the late '60's and early '70's... I don't recall seeing very many '69 RS-Z28's at all. OTOH, I do remember seeing most of the RS options attached to SS Camaros, or base V8 Camaros... the RS option was a way to make the car look good. Most Z28 buyers wanted their car to 'go fast'.. :) .. they were also predominantly young men, who had more 'need for speed', than $$. I'd also bet that a very large percentage of Z28 buyers were servicemen... (as MOST young men were in the service during that period - or college (but their money went to tuition) - and the servicemen had a place to sleep and food for 'free', so all we had to spend our money on were cars, insurance, and gas (leaving out other necessities such as booze and girls)!.. :)
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What I find interesting about this discussion is how the paradigm has changed with regard to the 69 Z. As a teenager, my recollection was that while I did see Z/28's their sightings were much less frequent than say SS Camaros and 396 Chevelles. The Chevelles seemed to be everywhere. I can only remember seeing 1 Z/28 RS. In fact, the mythology back then in my area, was that there was no such thing as a Z/28 RS. When I bought my Z RS in 1982, a supposed "friend" of mine had the need to call me and inform me that mine mine had to be a fake, since "they never made it". Maybe someday there will be enough data to do a vaild statistical analysis, like has been done for the 67's.
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From my time playing with these cars during the late '60's and early '70's... I don't recall seeing very many '69 RS-Z28's at all. OTOH, I do remember seeing most of the RS options attached to SS Camaros, or base V8 Camaros... the RS option was a way to make the car look good. Most Z28 buyers wanted their car to 'go fast'.. :) .. they were also predominantly young men, who had more 'need for speed', than $$. I'd also bet that a very large percentage of Z28 buyers were servicemen... (as MOST young men were in the service during that period - or college (but their money went to tuition) - and the servicemen had a place to sleep and food for 'free', so all we had to spend our money on were cars, insurance, and gas (leaving out other necessities such as booze and girls)!.. :)
Gary, that is going to depend a lot on WHERE you are talking about. That may be the case where you were at the time, but not around here.
I may start a poll on the site to see who has what. It won't be scientific, but it might be interesting.
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Poll is in this thread / link.
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=13395.0
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From my time playing with these cars during the late '60's and early '70's... I don't recall seeing very many '69 RS-Z28's at all. OTOH, I do remember seeing most of the RS options attached to SS Camaros, or base V8 Camaros... the RS option was a way to make the car look good. Most Z28 buyers wanted their car to 'go fast'.. :) .. they were also predominantly young men, who had more 'need for speed', than $$. I'd also bet that a very large percentage of Z28 buyers were servicemen... (as MOST young men were in the service during that period - or college (but their money went to tuition) - and the servicemen had a place to sleep and food for 'free', so all we had to spend our money on were cars, insurance, and gas (leaving out other necessities such as booze and girls)!.. :)
Gary, that is going to depend a lot on WHERE you are talking about. That may be the case where you were at the time, but not around here.
I may start a poll on the site to see who has what. It won't be scientific, but it might be interesting.
I turned 16 in 1964 in the north Alabama area (a highly pro-Chevy area).. I was in the USAF at Keesler AFB, MS during the '68-72 timeframe, where I had a half dozen friends with 69 Z28s (not to mention many others running around). I don't recall any of the Z28s I was familiar with that were also RS... in fact, when I bought my current Z28/RS in 1976, it was one of the first I'd seen. I, like most fellas my age, was predominantly interested in 'street performance' ... $100/run street races were not uncommon, and I did see some 'pink slip' races on the street as well! Which parts of my prior post do you mostly disagree with, Bryon? Are you old enough to have been involved in the street scene in the late 60's? OR .. are you referring to the mid-late 70's when the cars began to be collectible and many got 'upgraded'?
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I put my vote in. Curious to see how that turns out. Hopefully you get alot of participation that might give you some interesting numbers to compare.
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From my time playing with these cars during the late '60's and early '70's... I don't recall seeing very many '69 RS-Z28's at all. OTOH, I do remember seeing most of the RS options attached to SS Camaros, or base V8 Camaros... the RS option was a way to make the car look good. Most Z28 buyers wanted their car to 'go fast'.. :) .. they were also predominantly young men, who had more 'need for speed', than $$. I'd also bet that a very large percentage of Z28 buyers were servicemen... (as MOST young men were in the service during that period - or college (but their money went to tuition) - and the servicemen had a place to sleep and food for 'free', so all we had to spend our money on were cars, insurance, and gas (leaving out other necessities such as booze and girls)!.. :)
Gary, that is going to depend a lot on WHERE you are talking about. That may be the case where you were at the time, but not around here.
I may start a poll on the site to see who has what. It won't be scientific, but it might be interesting.
I turned 16 in 1964 in the north Alabama area (a highly pro-Chevy area).. I was in the USAF at Keesler AFB, MS during the '68-72 timeframe, where I had a half dozen friends with 69 Z28s (not to mention many others running around). I don't recall any of the Z28s I was familiar with that were also RS... in fact, when I bought my current Z28/RS in 1976, it was one of the first I'd seen. I, like most fellas my age, was predominantly interested in 'street performance' ... $100/run street races were not uncommon, and I did see some 'pink slip' races on the street as well! Which parts of my prior post do you mostly disagree with, Bryon? Are you old enough to have been involved in the street scene in the late 60's? OR .. are you referring to the mid-late 70's when the cars began to be collectible and many got 'upgraded'?
I grew up in that time frame, and I remember alot of what I saw were standard Z's. One RS Z that I remember and that was it. Living in Cinci at the time about 45 miles from the Norwood plant and knowing people that worked there, you can just imagine the huge concentration of F-bodies that romed the streets. It was a hot bed for camaros and firebirds. There were even quite a few C.O.P.O camaro's roaming around. I knew 4 different people at the time within a 30 mile radius that had C.O.P.O.'s. One of my friends in particular (who still owns the car today in unrestored condition) has an RS C.O.P.O. and many believed throughout the 70's and 80's that the car was a fake, simply because it has the RS option. They just weren't known very well at the time. Of course today we have gotten wiser and now know there were quite a few RS C.O.P.O.'s built. I also lived next door to a good friend who bought his C.O.P.O. in the early 70's (still has it too) Not an RS but was a street terror back in the day, now it's a restored cruiser on the weekends.
Back then the 69 Z's with the RS option were kind of in the same boat as I recall and even quoted as rare in magazine articles at the time. However I tend to believe there were more built than we were led to believe in the 70's and 80's. A friend of mine still says they are pretty damn rare in his words. With all that being said, I still lean towards at least 4-5,000 being built on the Z28 platform as a reasonable guess. I don't consider that rare when you look at the grand scheme of things.
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Just a difference of opinion Gary. And the topic is production numbers on RS Z28s, so that is what I am talking about.
No need to get personal. Everyone can have an opinion and I am not challenging yours. But I can have an opinion too.
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Sorry Bryon if that came across as a personal affront, it wasn't intended to be such. My point/and question was how old you were when these cars were new, as my prior post was about how many Z28s were ordered from the factory with the RS option.
I KNOW that there are many more Z28s with RS option now than were on the streets in 1969. In 1969, the Vietnam was ongoing in full bore; the draft affected everyone. A young man was either in the military, OR he was in college, and most of the Z28s were purchased by young men. I was also questioning which part of my post you took issue with?? No personal attack was intended.. I just wanted to know what your perspective was, and how it differed from my own.
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It's cool Gary. No issues. I did not take it as an attack but wanted to make sure things did not start to escalate. I respect your opinion. I just don't think they are all that rare. Just my experience.. I am sure we would be laughing about it by now if we were discussing this over a cold beverage of choice. ;D
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I suppose my post could be viewed as 'accusing you of not being old'.... :) Assuming you are of age to drink, I'll buy when we have that brew.. :) J/K... and grinning... :)
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Gary, I'm a little younger than you. I was 14 in 1969, but my recollections resemble yours. I don't remember seeing any Z RS's other than an orange one in the mid seventies (when I was old enough to maybe actually buy one) Still remember drooling over magazine ads for the 1970 Chevelle SS. It was the Red one with black Stripes. And also thinking when I saw the 1970 Camaro that it had been ruined. I'm in Cincinnati and maybe other cities were more hotbeds of performance cars, but seeing a 69 Z back then wasn't an everyday event in my experience. You noticed one when you saw it.
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I don't think 'young men' are a lot different wherever they are from... from HS thru college age (I can't include myself in that category anymore!), mostly all they think about are cars and girls!
The thing that I've noticed in my travels is that different areas of the country tend to be either 'Ford country' or 'Chevrolet country'.. which probably indicates how aggressive the respective dealers in those areas were in selling their cars, and maybe how much they promoted performance and muscle cars! .. at least that's my opinion.. :) The areas I spent time in were 'Chevrolet country'.. :)
Due to the heightened anxiety level for all of we young fellas during the late 60's, I think I remember those days better than I remember last week! :)
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I KNOW that there are many more Z28s with RS option now than were on the streets in 1969.
Shucks, there are more Z28's now than ever made without the RS option, lol. I'd even go as far to say the Z28 has to be the most copied or cloned car in existence. So much so I'm almost not that excited anymore when they roll into the local cruise. Tired of seeing the "badged" up cars.
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I was 12 in 1969 and when I purchased my first z I looked far and wide before I found my orange rs/z in 1977. I would call rs/z very scarce back in the day. The % who knows but very uncommon.
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I'm with you on that Steve. I bought mine in 76 at the age of 19. I knew I wanted a 69 Z and the one I came across and bought had the RS option. Guess I was lucky. I don't recall seeing a lot of them back in the day. I'm sure San Diego wasn't the real hot bed like some of the areas back east but I do remember checking out a few 69 Z's with out the RS option.
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I would say Z28's had a lower percentage of RS than the general population of Camaros. Keep is cheap and fast.
And SS's may have had a higher percentage.
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In my mind, there's no doubt about it (Kurt's statement).. much fewer Z28's with RS, and more SSs with RS option...
(I'm speaking of 'from the factory'... not necessarily today, when people can add whatever they want from the reproduction industry)
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Guys...from HS thru college age (I can't include myself in that category anymore!), mostly all they think about are cars and girls!
I am sorry Gary, like Bryon, I must take issue with some of your statements. I STILL mostly think about cars and girls! Keeps me feeling young I guess. Maybe we are college age...I mean we are still learning, right?
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One of my friends in particular (who still owns the car today in unrestored condition) has an RS C.O.P.O. and many believed throughout the 70's and 80's that the car was a fake, simply because it has the RS option.
Is this friend's car Green? His intials G.S.? You should PM me.
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The CRG db has just over 1400 Z/28s; 18.55% are also RS.
I have seen many in my 40 years in the hobby. Owned one '83-'89; not only a virtual twin to the one just found in Brooklyn they are within 50 VINs. There were several more in the area. I have paperwork from Martz Chev; 3 of the 10 Z/28s they had were RS as shown in JM's '69 book. There's a Cortez Silver Z/28-RS featured in the book also. Friends also had them; Daytona Yellow/black vinyl/yellow houndstooth JL8 Z/28-RS and a 16k mile Le Mans Blue Z/28-RS that was recently sold. I have a small accumulation of factory paperwork copies; 7 more Z/28-RS including the Ron Pratte car sold at B-J AZ this year and another with JL8. Check out the April '69 Hi-Performance Cars magazine for a test of a Daytona Yellow Z/28-RS from Baldwin Chevrolet.
Nothing rare at all about a '69 Z/28-RS.
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One of my friends in particular (who still owns the car today in unrestored condition) has an RS C.O.P.O. and many believed throughout the 70's and 80's that the car was a fake, simply because it has the RS option.
Is this friend's car Green? His intials G.S.? You should PM me.
Oops! Scratch that intials, I meant T.S.
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Thanks Bill!
Everyone else - My estimate is just what I have seen in my area. :)
And RS/SS cars in 69 are less common around here than RS/Z28s.
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Guys...from HS thru college age (I can't include myself in that category anymore!), mostly all they think about are cars and girls!
I am sorry Gary, like Bryon, I must take issue with some of your statements. I STILL mostly think about cars and girls! Keeps me feeling young I guess. Maybe we are college age...I mean we are still learning, right?
:) .. Bentley! .. at our age.. we are not supposed to admit that! especially publicly... or we'll be called that worst thing of all... 'a dirty old man'.. :)
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One of my friends in particular (who still owns the car today in unrestored condition) has an RS C.O.P.O. and many believed throughout the 70's and 80's that the car was a fake, simply because it has the RS option.
Is this friend's car Green? His intials G.S.? You should PM me.
Oops! Scratch that intials, I meant T.S.
Sending you a PM. Sorry about the late reply it's been a while since I've checked in.