CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: hgger69 on April 13, 2015, 08:46:16 AM
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...if I just had that money........ ::)
(http://assets.blog.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2015/04/1969-ZL-1-Camaro-7.jpg)
http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2015/04/09/one-of-50-cars-ordered-by-fred-gibb-numbers-matching-1969-camaro-zl1-to-cross-the-block/
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Jeez,
At least put the air cleaner seal on right! AND, not suppost to have the 427 sticker on the lid. A high dollar car like this should be totally correct. JMHO.
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Jeez,
At least put the air cleaner seal on right! AND, not suppost to have the 427 sticker on the lid. A high dollar car like this should be totally correct. JMHO.
Yes, that perturbed me as well.... Based on the $$$ they are expecting for that car, they should be willing to pay $500 for someone to 'correctly' install the A/C seal.. :) and another $500 to remove the unnecessary decal.. :)
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Jeez,
At least put the air cleaner seal on right! AND, not suppost to have the 427 sticker on the lid. A high dollar car like this should be totally correct. JMHO.
That isn't necessarily true. The Engineering Parts List for COPO 9560 shows STICKER-ENGINE IDENT #3902414 was added; #3902410 [396] was deducted. STICKER ENG HP DESIGN #3916144 was deducted; nothing was added.
An engine photo in the July '69 SS&DI test of Yenko Camaro N579281 shows the crossed-flags 427 label only as specified in engineering documentation. Engine photos of ZL1 #5 N608381 in the July '69 PHR shows no label. Some had it; some didn't.
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According to Copo Connection, no ZL-1s left the factory with the 427 Sticker.
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Chevrolet documentation indicates otherwise. Did COPO Connection personally inspect all 69 ZL1 Camaros?
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Interesting discussion this....I still think its a great lookin car, but that's me.. :-*
If its just the seal and decal that you guys pick on this car, it´s almost perfect, huh? ;D
Regarding the sticker it would be interesting to see some old pics on the engine from the original ZL-1, do such pics exist? The ones I've seen doesn't have the sticker on the lid....
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First of all I’m not attacking anyone here personally. I’m presenting the reasons for my viewpoint on this topic.
Don’t believe everything you read. I’m quite familiar with the COPO Connection book; my name is in it. It was and remains an excellent source of COPO information. But the statement “427 air cleaner sticker was absent on all ZL1s leaving the factory” is just plain foolish. The first ZL1 was final assembled December 30, 1968; the last June 3, 1969 a span of 156 days. No one saw every one of those cars as they left the factory so no one knows. The COPO 9560 Engineering docs that specify the 427 label came from an earlier edition of a COPO Connection book; I guess he didn’t read them. I’ve dug a bit more and found three more vintage photos of COPO 9561 cars. Two have the decal, one does not. As for the statement “The ones I've seen doesn't have the sticker on the lid....” the only vintage photo you could have seen is the one I mentioned. Only two ZL1s were photographed in the day; the #3 ZL1 is the other but the air cleaner lid is not present in the photos. I’d like to see photos of the other 98% before concluding none of them had the label. I’ll bet every restored ’69 Z/28 has a 302 label on the air cleaner but the January ’69 Hot Rod feature of an 09D LA Z/28 shows the factory did forget on occasion. Could they have just forgotten on some COPOs?
So what did I do when putting the finishing touches on ZL1 #4 27 years ago? No 427 label. But I have no problem with ZL1 #6 having the label. It is entirely possible it was built that way.
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How about another curve ball thrown in...
This may be reaching but I see it entirely possible (this happened alot with fan caution decals in the Ford camp when cars came in for service) Since alot of these cars didn't sell right away, alot were sent back or distributed around the country at various dealerships....Isn't it entirely possible that those dealers, or even Gibbs himself saw fit to run over to the parts department and stick "427 decals on themselves when the cars were only days or weeks old??
I mean, without the decal, and no identification on the outside of the car, I'm sure there were alot of people back then that didn't know what they were looking at, and could have easily mistaken the cars for 396's that cost $7,000. Since they were a hard sale I could see dealers doing things to push these cars out the door. The iron block COPO's had air cleaner decals.....so could it be possible that dealers thought,,,,hey why not??
Just a thought, and speculation on my part, but a possibility. Either way I certainly wouldn't kick it out of the garage just because of a $6 decal. Just buy another lid and switch it back and forth. If you can afford the car, you can afford another air cleaner lid ;D
What I do like about this hobby is that there are still original unrestored cars out there that show things weren't always cut in stone, and some people aren't afraid to restore a car that doesn't follow what is widely accepted as correct. William has posted enough information to suggest that sticker or no sticker is entirely possible. What pains me are restorations that are done on original cars, and things are changed just because that's what is accepted in the main stream or due to peer pressure with judges and the like. I have an unrestored car here that has a few oddities about it, but are viewed as entirely possible by other "supposed" experts that have seen the car. So I don't necessarily see this decal issue as incorrect.
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The A/C seal is on right its just not formed properly,rolled out.
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How about another curve ball thrown in...
This may be reaching but I see it entirely possible (this happened alot with fan caution decals in the Ford camp when cars came in for service) Since alot of these cars didn't sell right away, alot were sent back or distributed around the country at various dealerships....Isn't it entirely possible that those dealers, or even Gibbs himself saw fit to run over to the parts department and stick "427 decals on themselves when the cars were only days or weeks old??
I mean, without the decal, and no identification on the outside of the car, I'm sure there were alot of people back then that didn't know what they were looking at, and could have easily mistaken the cars for 396's that cost $7,000. Since they were a hard sale I could see dealers doing things to push these cars out the door. The iron block COPO's had air cleaner decals.....so could it be possible that dealers thought,,,,hey why not??
Just a thought, and speculation on my part, but a possibility. Either way I certainly wouldn't kick it out of the garage just because of a $6 decal. Just buy another lid and switch it back and forth. If you can afford the car, you can afford another air cleaner lid ;D
What I do like about this hobby is that there are still original unrestored cars out there that show things weren't always cut in stone, and some people aren't afraid to restore a car that doesn't follow what is widely accepted as correct. William has posted enough information to suggest that sticker or no sticker is entirely possible. What pains me are restorations that are done on original cars, and things are changed just because that's what is accepted in the main stream or due to peer pressure with judges and the like. I have an unrestored car here that has a few oddities about it, but are viewed as entirely possible by other "supposed" experts that have seen the car. So I don't necessarily see this decal issue as incorrect.
You're absolutely correct... There ARE differences from the factory (from 'commonly accepted and written' absolutes).. and then, just as now, dealers DO make changes to the cars in their inventory to make them more 'saleable'. There are *many* differences in late '69 delivered Z28 (and probably other Camaros as well)... which originated in the factory(s)...
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....I've dug a bit more and found three more vintage photos of COPO 9561 cars. Two have the decal, one does not. As for the statement “The ones I've seen doesn't have the sticker on the lid....” the only vintage photo you could have seen is the one I mentioned. Only two ZL1s were photographed in the day; the #3 ZL1 is the other but the air cleaner lid is not present in the photos. I’d like to see photos of the other 98% before concluding none of them had the label. I’ll bet every restored ’69 Z/28 has a 302 label on the air cleaner but the January ’69 Hot Rod feature of an 09D LA Z/28 shows the factory did forget on occasion. Could they have just forgotten on some COPOs?
So what did I do when putting the finishing touches on ZL1 #4 27 years ago? No 427 label. But I have no problem with ZL1 #6 having the label. It is entirely possible it was built that way.
Great work, William, I really appreciate it!
Do you have the pics to show us or aren't they digital maybe?
I just found a pic with the sticker! The two I've seen so far is this, are they authentic you think?
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h193/hugger69/Huggern/copozl1_zpszpmc18w2.jpg)
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h193/hugger69/Huggern/copo5_zpsmiccteum.jpg)
Well spoken there, X33RS, I think you have a point! :)
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Thanks,
One point I was trying to make and didn't come across very well.. In 1969 a new buyer sees the ZL1 in the showroom, it has a sticker on the air cleaner. Whether that was put on at the factory or added at the dealer, I don't think the new owner cares (I certainly wouldn't have questioned it). Now here we are 47 years later and all the original owner can tell you is that "yes it had a decal on it when I bought the car new" Would we have any way of determining 47 years later if it was a factory goof or dealer installed??
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I also agree that things got done outside the cookie cutter mold by the factory, And even experts were not there to witness "mistakes" like the stickers, or other abnormalities. Having a large sample size is always going to help, but doesn't provide insight to a guy who has a unrestored car, that doesn't fit.
I just hope these guys with the abnormalities don't get worried and trust the so called experts and change how there car came from the factory, just to fit in and be called "correct" by some judge at a show. :)
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The photo of the ZL1 engine on a stand is from the February 1995 issue of Chevy High Performance. It's the block from ZL1 #26 completely rebuilt to OE specs to see what it would do on the dyno. I doubt that is an OE air cleaner; we provided some parts for the build and were credited in the feature.
The dyno results are on this site: http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml
Bill Porterfield owned the #26 engine and ZL1 #3 at the time; there may have been an ulterior motive for building the engine. The owner of #26 had the engine from #3. Despite offering this engine and $$ neither engine has returned to its original chassis.
The other photo is one I posted in the COPO article. The PHR test of #5 was re-visited in the June 1998 Hot Rod by Ro McGonegal. With only headers and wimpy 6.5" slicks it went 11.64. That's Hellcat territory, 46 years ago. Imagine what that car would do on today's tires.
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I also agree that things got done outside the cookie cutter mold by the factory, And even experts were not there to witness "mistakes" like the stickers, or other abnormalities. Having a large sample size is always going to help, but doesn't provide insight to a guy who has a unrestored car, that doesn't fit.
I just hope these guys with the abnormalities don't get worried and trust the so called experts and change how there car came from the factory, just to fit in and be called "correct" by some judge at a show. :)
Examples ...like the owners of late '69 Z28s with dripper valve covers, who read the books and learn that '69s didn't have drippers.. so they buy an old crusty set they find without drippers and send to JM or someone to 'make like new' so their car will be 'correct'...? I've found MANY late Z28's and 350/350 corvette owners whose original cars' valve covers had drippers!! and Bryon is documenting the changes to the differential housings for these late cars (with the extra 'C' in front of the stamped code - which was a 1970 thing)... I'm sure there are many other examples that don't conform to the 'accepted' norm... but which are *correct from the factory*...
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ZL1 #16 is a treasure in that it remains unrestored and with its original owner. He shows it regularly and if you should happen upon it be sure to check out the E78 x 14 tire label on the LH door. Built with F70 x 14 Firestones.
ZL1 #59 is Hugger Orange and was built with style trim group. Had white D96 stripes on one side; black on the other. Unfortunately was not restored that way.
No 'do over' @57 units per hour I guess.
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I could go on about anomalies on original cars of other brands that I own, and even one that my father bought new and still owns today that I find pretty interesting. It happened everywhere in big 3 production.
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Well you sound well informed from experience, you may have disqualified yourself from ever being a judge ... :D
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I wouldn't fit in very well ;D
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....I've dug a bit more and found three more vintage photos of COPO 9561 cars. Two have the decal, one does not. As for the statement “The ones I've seen doesn't have the sticker on the lid....” the only vintage photo you could have seen is the one I mentioned. Only two ZL1s were photographed in the day; the #3 ZL1 is the other but the air cleaner lid is not present in the photos. I’d like to see photos of the other 98% before concluding none of them had the label. I’ll bet every restored ’69 Z/28 has a 302 label on the air cleaner but the January ’69 Hot Rod feature of an 09D LA Z/28 shows the factory did forget on occasion. Could they have just forgotten on some COPOs?
So what did I do when putting the finishing touches on ZL1 #4 27 years ago? No 427 label. But I have no problem with ZL1 #6 having the label. It is entirely possible it was built that way.
Great work, William, I really appreciate it!
Do you have the pics to show us or aren't they digital maybe?
I just found a pic with the sticker! The two I've seen so far is this, are they authentic you think?
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h193/hugger69/Huggern/copozl1_zpszpmc18w2.jpg)
(http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h193/hugger69/Huggern/copo5_zpsmiccteum.jpg)
Well spoken there, X33RS, I think you have a point! :)
How about another curve ball thrown in...
This may be reaching but I see it entirely possible (this happened alot with fan caution decals in the Ford camp when cars came in for service) Since alot of these cars didn't sell right away, alot were sent back or distributed around the country at various dealerships....Isn't it entirely possible that those dealers, or even Gibbs himself saw fit to run over to the parts department and stick "427 decals on themselves when the cars were only days or weeks old??
I mean, without the decal, and no identification on the outside of the car, I'm sure there were alot of people back then that didn't know what they were looking at, and could have easily mistaken the cars for 396's that cost $7,000. Since they were a hard sale I could see dealers doing things to push these cars out the door. The iron block COPO's had air cleaner decals.....so could it be possible that dealers thought,,,,hey why not??
Just a thought, and speculation on my part, but a possibility. Either way I certainly wouldn't kick it out of the garage just because of a $6 decal. Just buy another lid and switch it back and forth. If you can afford the car, you can afford another air cleaner lid ;D
What I do like about this hobby is that there are still original unrestored cars out there that show things weren't always cut in stone, and some people aren't afraid to restore a car that doesn't follow what is widely accepted as correct. William has posted enough information to suggest that sticker or no sticker is entirely possible. What pains me are restorations that are done on original cars, and things are changed just because that's what is accepted in the main stream or due to peer pressure with judges and the like. I have an unrestored car here that has a few oddities about it, but are viewed as entirely possible by other "supposed" experts that have seen the car. So I don't necessarily see this decal issue as incorrect.
You're absolutely correct... There ARE differences from the factory (from 'commonly accepted and written' absolutes).. and then, just as now, dealers DO make changes to the cars in their inventory to make them more 'saleable'. There are *many* differences in late '69 delivered Z28 (and probably other Camaros as well)... which originated in the factory(s)...
like EO paint correct ????
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Wouldn't know. Never saw one.
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like EO paint correct ????
[/quote]
Trust me, you don't want to start on that topic again.
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like EO paint correct ????
[/quote]
Unbelievable ! :-\
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Nope, no need to replow that ground.. everyone knows that the EO paint was correct!
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For someone that doesn't spend much time on a computer....and doesn't speak short hand, what does EO stand for?
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For someone that doesn't spend much time on a computer....and doesn't speak short hand, what does EO stand for?
Evening Orchid. Don't ask, it's a long story!
Paul
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Thanks for the PM's and clearification.
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Anybody know what it sold for (if it sold)?
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715k with the fees
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Thanks!!!
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