CRG Discussion Forum

Camaro Research Group Discussion => Restoration => Topic started by: BillOhio on February 24, 2015, 03:27:21 PM

Title: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: BillOhio on February 24, 2015, 03:27:21 PM: I am rounding up some info to get my car painted and found some confusing details. I searched and didn't find exactly an answer here or in assembly process.
I read the blacked out firewall was done last on a regular car. I thought a shield was eventually used to keep white cowl paint from going too far down the firewall. I believe I have seen pictures of firewalls with a lot of sloppy white on them. This makes me think the white was done after blackout.
When I was searching today, I read where the cowl was painted then the blackout. I am wondering does the white go down and overlap the black or does the black overlap the white?
Thanks guys. Maybe this will make it easier to find
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 24, 2015, 03:43:54 PM: I wasn't there so I don't really *know*, but thinking about what would be *easier/less time consuming* for the factory, I'd think all cars would get the blackout (*after paint*), and after that only the cars with stripes got the 'stripe paint' under the cowl... but that's a good question for someone who was 'there'.... JohnZ?
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 24, 2015, 04:51:20 PM: Darrell:

I think that is the process (as described by JohnZ) for 'Fisher body', all of which happened prior to the body moving to the Assembly Plant where the front clip parts are painted and installed, which I believe included the cowl panel (and I'm assuming the under cowl (black out or white out) for stripe cars)? I'm going to go read that again for his description for how the under cowl white-out/black-out was painted, but I'm pretty certain that would have been done at 'assembly', which occurs AFTER the Fisher firewall blackout.
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: cook_dw on February 24, 2015, 04:53:25 PM: I deleted my post because after reading it again I got confused so I will do more research and see if I can make sense of it. ???
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: firstgenaddict on February 25, 2015, 09:45:59 PM: It was done at fisher for Norwood cars.
This was extensively discussed a few months ago in reference to a Daytona Yellow Z28.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fuBIXWD_EZs/UOByp5ZAMKI/AAAAAAAANHI/00gnDaCnmJQ/w1052-h789-no/01.10.10%2B036.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UOBvfm9o5Yk/UOByq1pPkTI/AAAAAAAANHM/PUDFiPvtVyc/w1052-h789-no/01.10.10%2B039.jpg)

(http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12194.0;attach=14474;image)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SrvqEqAaaak/USB1naXpj6I/AAAAAAAAB4E/VG82k4LF3RY/w720-h480-no/69_LB_Z_10D_Trimtag.jpg)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-QlxVuw1j2SQ/URiAleO4uVI/AAAAAAAABq8/13rBlW9UDbU/w1052-h789-no/69_Z28_Cleaning_Pics%2B002.jpg)

The last picture here shows the gray primer with the body color running over the top of the firewall.
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 25, 2015, 11:51:59 PM: Quote from: firstgenaddict on February 25, 2015, 09:45:59 PM
It was done at fisher for Norwood cars.
This was extensively discussed a few months ago in reference to a Daytona Yellow Z28.

The last picture here shows the gray primer with the body color running over the top of the firewall.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

James, can you be more specific about 'what' was painted 'where' (fisher or assembly plant) and why you believe that (ie. evidences which support that?)...
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: BillOhio on February 26, 2015, 02:32:07 AM: I read the yellow car but I don't think it would be the same as a white striped car. I assume what looks white is primer on it? Why would a black striped car have white under the cowl? That would look terrible
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: bcmiller on February 26, 2015, 03:09:18 AM: Gary, not a big deal, but I changed your post, to removed the pics - since they were already in post immediately above yours. I hope you don't mind. :)
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: 69Z28-RS on February 26, 2015, 04:15:36 AM: No problem Bryon; including the pix again was unintentional... :)
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: ZLP955 on February 26, 2015, 06:28:41 AM: My understanding of JohnZ's assembly process article and reading threads with pictures of survivor cars is that the blackout was always done last, after the stripe color was applied to the upper cowl area. The assembly article states the sequence was color booth, reflow oven, then blackout booth (for non-stripe cars); if the car required stripes, these were masked and manually sprayed in the repair booth/reflow oven after the color bake, therefore I read that to mean this occurred prior to blackout booth.
Obviously black striped cars are harder to determine this detail on, but many of the pictures in similar threads showing cars with white stripes exhibit a gradual blending of the firewall black onto the upper cowl, over body and stripe color. Many over-restored cars show an incorrect hard tape line at the transition.
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: firstgenaddict on February 27, 2015, 01:57:21 AM: Quote
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

James, can you be more specific about 'what' was painted 'where' (fisher or assembly plant) and why you believe that (ie. evidences which support that?)...

There was some type of black primer applied before the body color was sprayed. I'm not saying more was not sprayed later, just saying at minimum one layer of black was on the firewall was there before body color paint.
When I find the color written in grease pencil on the firewall there is black under it, the color was not written after the car was painted.
The gray at the top of the photo is the factory gray primer.

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-b18wRW7xHZI/VDFWT8vjFcI/AAAAAAAAJzA/yWU2auI_H2A/w1002-h752-no/69_Z28_Cleaning_Pics%2B002.jpg)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/nagzXqn1p9z1PqVQyMdnSyM1-65OICW9aSKOeyEj1OQ=w905-h752-no)

In the above photo you can see how the peaks in the brush on sealer shielded the white from overspray. The dash semi gloss and the dash suede were clearly sprayed after the white for the wiper well as evidenced by the over spray patterns.

Here is an early one owner survivor LA car, 71 in grease pencil over the black.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/8cUEsYoXX6euDqn_IK7SZbFweFWza0AEv5zWZcaiq2A=w983-h752-no)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--8i_pDLKFKI/UttIYr-1YLI/AAAAAAAAIhU/mGY7SRw9DL0/w1002-h752-no/BLUE%2BSURVIVOR%2B%26%2BORANGE%2B%2BSURVIVOR%2BZ28%2B081.JPG)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vawcRWtFurY/UttIQIEL1BI/AAAAAAAAIdY/M2kxFIeS_CM/w1002-h752-no/BLUE%2BSURVIVOR%2B%26%2BORANGE%2B%2BSURVIVOR%2BZ28%2B053.JPG)

At the top you can barely see some metallic silver
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Huw9G26bNrg/Uok9eV33IAI/AAAAAAAAE2c/pDBbbzHyHFg/w1128-h752-no/101_7202.JPG)

The fine specs are not dust they are silver over the black, I checked with a jewelers loupe.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c50cFHHUJDA/Up-T3DmKkXI/AAAAAAAAFAc/-ZizE59Mcts/w1002-h752-no/100B8542.JPG)

Here is a gold black striped Z. with original paint, The gold mist is down over the firewall black.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/miBI1VOvMr6WRiFjiyX3Vt-YaZfdvIrU7vHtaIZRIJY=w1086-h752-no)

Here is another unrestored LA car, look behind the engine, orange paint all over the firewall (over the black).

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-sLHu5BsuyDw/U3zW28suMdI/AAAAAAAAHlY/zLFKHSotoL0/w1002-h752-no/64_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: BillOhio on March 01, 2015, 08:34:08 PM: I found the picture I was looking for. Looks like the blackout has a lot of white over spray on this car.
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: firstgenaddict on March 05, 2015, 10:30:29 PM: That's Ed Montini's 1100 mile Fathom green car, it is a late build and has the retrofit left hand motor mount with the long bolt and bracket.

He said that he was reluctant to do the firewall like he found it, however after seeing the discussions on it's originality he went for it...

Here is a picture of his car at the 13 Muscle car nationals in Chicago, it was right beside the 68 Z28 conv.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-j1xbcaLu8PM/UrahcPrOzoI/AAAAAAAAMv8/bVBeAf5_wS4/w1034-h776-no/100_7835.JPG)

If that is what you wanted to see...
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XdAoOa-tCaY/UXTBid6CAYI/AAAAAAAACos/veTpdW6KSSw/w1080-h723-no/215717_1908049468294_4511386_n.jpg)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3iyxfqeCfm0/UraeIXGVsQI/AAAAAAAAFWA/Ux5kJizBm30/w1034-h776-no/100_8269.JPG)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ewAIxigdmuo/URBWm_GRZxI/AAAAAAAABVo/69BM9zDqu9Q/w1034-h776-no/2013.02.04%2B063.jpg)
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: ZLP955 on March 06, 2015, 03:01:02 AM: So was the upper cowl stripe color applied after firewall blackout on all Z28s (plus Z10/11) at both NOR and LA?
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: firstgenaddict on March 06, 2015, 07:36:17 AM: No, it appears that there is a black (more DEEP chocolate) paint or some type of coating applied before the grey primer and before paint, thus would have been before any final finishing, some cars do not appear to have had a final black out done to the firewall.
See it here under the gray primer and black overspray.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8RX8SZiL0BeilWTlVlc2s5t3fEg7mliH-Z2gg1g4Rb8=w923-h776-no)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-79zC0ubwSz0/VDFYGPi-8iI/AAAAAAAAKHY/OU15svw_5p0/w582-h776-no/100_3923.jpg)
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: BillOhio on March 08, 2015, 02:15:18 AM: If I am understanding this, there shouldn't be primer over the paint. So this over spray shouldn't be primer. Eddie believes this is stripe over spray.
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: ZLP955 on March 08, 2015, 03:02:06 AM: Quote from: firstgenaddict on March 06, 2015, 07:36:17 AM
No, it appears that there is a black (more DEEP chocolate) paint or some type of coating applied before the grey primer and before paint, thus would have been before any final finishing, some cars do not appear to have had a final black out done to the firewall.
See it here under the gray primer and black overspray.
Isn't that the phosphate coating described in JohnZ's assembly process article?
Title: Re: Which was done last, Cowl white or firewall blackout on Z
Post by: firstgenaddict on March 08, 2015, 06:56:27 PM: Quote from: BillOhio on March 08, 2015, 02:15:18 AM
If I am understanding this, there shouldn't be primer over the paint. So this over spray shouldn't be primer. Eddie believes this is stripe over spray.

Yes that is correct it is stripe over spray, there is a picture in Jerry's book which shows a 69 Z with a completely white firewall from the wiper well white out.