CRG Discussion Forum
Model Specific Discussions => Trans-Am Camaros => Topic started by: Steve Holmes on February 07, 2015, 09:59:33 PM
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I'd love to see images of the various rear end locating devices used on first gen Camaros, including both sideways movement and tramp/hop prevention devices. What worked? What didn't? Also, did GM supply their own over the counter options?
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Steve, in '67 most of the Camaro competitors just added a factory style traction arm on the driver's side to go along with the stock one
that was already there on the passenger side. There wasn't a whole lot of lateral location being concentrated on that first year although
a factory built rear sway bar arrangement was made in very limited quantities and this helped lateral control somewhat. For 1968 and
later that's when you started to see some of the Panhard rods and Watts links come into play. Here on the underside of the Gary Morgan
'67 Z-28, you can see a Panhard rod installed in conjunction with the two factory style traction arms. It is generally thought that the
traction arms caused suspension bind but Gary Morgan always ran the car in this configuration from '67-'69 and he said it worked well.
Gary held the A/Sedan track record at Watkins Glen with this car back in the day. The pictures below are from when the car was being
sold by RK Motors in Charlotte.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/Gary%20Morgan%20axle%202_zps89fpzubx.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/Gary%20Morgan%20axle%202_zps89fpzubx.jpg.html)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/Gary%20Morgan%20axle%203_zpst1bwk19k.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/Gary%20Morgan%20axle%203_zpst1bwk19k.jpg.html)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/Gary%20Morgan%20axle%201_zpsjedjgeif.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/Gary%20Morgan%20axle%201_zpsjedjgeif.jpg.html)
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Here's a vintage photo of the Watts link set-up in the Chaffey College Camaro. They also used a set of Gary Wheeler's
Hi-Tork horizontal shocks to control axle tramp.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/ChaffeyCollegeCamarosuspension.jpg)
Below are some current pictures I took of the Chaffey College Camaro's rear suspension. The horizontal shocks have gotten
worn out. Owner Mark Mountanos still has them but they have been removed.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/cc%20axle%204_zps1mvvh8gx.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/cc%20axle%204_zps1mvvh8gx.jpg.html)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/cc%20axle%201_zpskilvi8p9.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/cc%20axle%201_zpskilvi8p9.jpg.html)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/cc%20axle%203_zps7rxgcokl.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/cc%20axle%203_zps7rxgcokl.jpg.html)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/cc%20axle%202_zps4bon99m8.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/cc%20axle%202_zps4bon99m8.jpg.html)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/cc%20axle%205_zpskd65eeoq.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/cc%20axle%205_zpskd65eeoq.jpg.html)
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What is the flat metal plate for that is bolted to the frame near the front leaf spring mount? It almost looks like part of a leaf spring.
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The Chaffey College Camaro has a very unusual roll cage and those plates shown on the frame rail are where part of the cage is attached to the floor.
They ran bolts through the frame and also welded the plates to the floor inside, although the welding may have come at a later date.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/cc%20cage_zpsgornssbb.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/cc%20cage_zpsgornssbb.jpg.html)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/January%202014/cc%20cage%202_zps6nmndzeg.jpg) (http://s586.photobucket.com/user/1967z28/media/January%202014/cc%20cage%202_zps6nmndzeg.jpg.html)
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So if the traction bars were considered to bind suspension, what were used instead, do you know Jon? Do the horizontal shocks do a better job than the "simple" traction bars? Thanks for the info!
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Wow, thanks Jon, these are outstanding! The Gary Morgan Camaro is as clean on the underside as it is on top.
Do you have more?
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So if the traction bars were considered to bind suspension, what were used instead, do you know Jon? Do the horizontal shocks do a better job than the "simple" traction bars? Thanks for the info!
Yes, the horizontal shocks would do a better job of eliminating the suspension bind than the rigid bars. Some cars used neither the shocks nor the bars. Some used a reverse wrap around the front spring eye of the rear leaf springs as a method of controlling spring wrap-up on deceleration.
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That cage is very unusual and not very safe looking.
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Wow, thanks Jon, these are outstanding! The Gary Morgan Camaro is as clean on the underside as it is on top.
Do you have more?
Thanks, Steve. Below is an article on the Panhard rod rear suspension used on the '68 AMC Javelins. I believe in '69 they switched to a Watts link arrangement but I don't think I have any good pics of that.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/RRC1_zps767e5b7d.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/RRC2_zpse1695fbd.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/RRC3_zps7332fb89.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/RRC4_zps3db1112a.jpg)
There does not appear to be a driveshaft safety loop in the Javelin.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/RRC5_zps7a14c98c.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/RRC6_zps715177e4.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/June%202012/RRC7_zpsb05b83d7.jpg)
(Jon Mello Collection)
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Was it the Chaffee College car that ran a three link at some point?
The center mounted top link is the preffered traction aid in vintage racing today. Was it used back in the day?
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No, I think the Chaffey College rear suspension has remained unchanged. I think the University of Pittsburgh Camaro had a three link, if I remember correctly. I think it was also tried on one of the Bud Moore Boss Mustangs and maybe one of the Mopars. There are others out there that would know better than me.
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You're correct. I knew it was a school! Do you know if anyone ran a top link?
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Anybody have the pic of Donohue sitting in a Javelin, can't remember which year, but there's a red Koni or something in the pic behind him, mounted just above the driveshaft tunnel. Ken
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The 70 Bud Moore car #775 had a three link set up but Parnelli set faster times in the normal suspension car so it was removed. You can see what remains of the brackets and the three link that they all had. This car had a very high rear deck area in front of the rear window inside the car and the rear shocks were outboard of the frame rails too. You can also see part of the over ride traction bars where they pass through the floor.
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/THREE%20LINK/interior%20and%203dg%2014%20177_zps4ifpny72.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/THREE%20LINK/interior%20and%203dg%2014%20177_zps4ifpny72.jpg.html)
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/THREE%20LINK/interior%20and%203dg%2014%20266_zps163ggr2j.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/THREE%20LINK/interior%20and%203dg%2014%20266_zps163ggr2j.jpg.html)
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/THREE%20LINK/interior%20and%203dg%2014%20157_zpsj37fkzga.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/THREE%20LINK/interior%20and%203dg%2014%20157_zpsj37fkzga.jpg.html)
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/THREE%20LINK/interior%20and%203dg%2014%20158_zpschdr8ayc.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/THREE%20LINK/interior%20and%203dg%2014%20158_zpschdr8ayc.jpg.html)
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Here is the rear deck area.
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/THREE%20LINK/3DG1%20102_zpsaned0jy1.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/THREE%20LINK/3DG1%20102_zpsaned0jy1.jpg.html)
(http://i744.photobucket.com/albums/xx86/1109RWHP/THREE%20LINK/3DG1%20111_zpst3qonxjk.jpg) (http://s744.photobucket.com/user/1109RWHP/media/THREE%20LINK/3DG1%20111_zpst3qonxjk.jpg.html)
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You're correct. I knew it was a school! Do you know if anyone ran a top link?
I guess I'm not sure what that is.
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Anybody have the pic of Donohue sitting in a Javelin, can't remember which year, but there's a red Koni or something in the pic behind him, mounted just above the driveshaft tunnel. Ken
I think I recall seeing a photo like that at one time but I don't have the image saved or anything.
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The 70 Bud Moore car #775 had a three link set up but Parnelli set faster times in the normal suspension car so it was removed. You can see what remains of the brackets and the three link that they all had. This car had a very high rear deck area in front of the rear window inside the car and the rear shocks were outboard of the frame rails too. You can also see part of the over ride traction bars where they pass through the floor.
Thanks for posting these! Is that #775 or #776?
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776
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Thanks. #775 has not been found to my understanding. Is that correct?
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Correct. Might be a chicken coop in Mexico as far as anyone knows.
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Top link is a center mounted traction bar a' la a three link. Solid or spring loaded. Sounds like 1109's description of a Donohue photo answered my question.
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Keep the pics coming guys, this is great info. Many thanks.
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From the Revs Digital Library, Karl Ludvingston Collection:
https://revslib.stanford.edu/?_=1420131748752&f%5Bcollection_ssim%5D%5B%5D=Karl+Ludvigsen+Collection&page=885 (https://revslib.stanford.edu/?_=1420131748752&f%5Bcollection_ssim%5D%5B%5D=Karl+Ludvigsen+Collection&page=885)
Details of the Ray Caldwell-designed rear suspension treatment on the Autodynamics Challenger. Sam Posey touched on the handling characteristics of it in The Mudge Pond Express
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I may have a photo and info in my files showing the rear suspension setup and student designed traction device on The University of Pittsburgh Camaro.
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I really would like to the rear suspension on the #19 car.......not been able to closely look at the suspension on this car
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I posted in the General Discussion Forum looking for information on my 1969 Camaro SS 396 / 375. Based on the owner history / information available, it appears to have been modified when new for some form of racing. The most interesting modification I found are stout brackets welded to the rear frame rail kick ups and what's left of the corresponding brackets that were welded to the top of the differential housing tubes, just inboard of the leaf spring 'U' bolts. It seems that some type of 'override' traction bars or shocks (as pictured in the Chaffey College car photos) were installed. Additionally the car had a full roll cage previously installed and later removed prior to 1973. I believe the car was set up for drag racing but I've only seen the underride type of traction bars used for 1/4 mile cars. Any thoughts?
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It would appear that the car did have Hi-Tork or Koni horizontal shocks at one time like the Chaffey College race car, although mounted
further outboard so they were outside the rear frame rail. Maybe this car saw some autocross/gymkhana/slalom activity, but it is unusual
to see this stuff on a big block car. I agree that you would expect to see the much more common traction bars mounted under the rear
spring on a car like this. Thanks for sharing the pic.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/ChaffeyCollegeCamarosuspension.jpg)
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Here are some shots from the Jerry Lagod thread (http://) showing his rear suspension, including the Watts-link, double-adjustable Konis, J56 brake calipers, rear sway bar, etc...
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1751Large_zps1d0b2d52.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1752Large_zpsf9e78a1e.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1753Large_zpsb71d97cf.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1754Large_zpsbc12af40.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1755Large_zps14fca821.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1756Large_zpsc9ab313a.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1757Large_zpse7b8f874.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1758Large_zps42694dae.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss309/1967z28/Jerry%20Lagod%20Camaro/DSCN1759Large_zpse2d27dcf.jpg)
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Thanks Jon, these are great pics.
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You're welcome, Steve. Glad you enjoyed them.
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I really like the sway bar design. It's the exact opposite of the design on the car I was involved with. Same adjust-ability, same unsprung weight but opposite. Cool to see the different ways folks skinned the cat.