CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Originality => Topic started by: L78 steve on December 17, 2014, 09:32:26 PM
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What is the correct dip stick for a late 67 L78, Yellow or red tip?
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Would it be the same as an L35? If so then mine are both pink. The sumps should be the same size.
Engine dates are T0214 and T0308
I assume the sticks were installed when the motor was assembled?
Mike
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Are they pink or faded red?
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That's a good question...pink or faded red. I had to check again.
I was able to remove the button from one dipstick easy enough and comparing the
exposed to the non-exposed area they look the same pink color.
Mike
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Pink it is. Thank you for your efforts.
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Is there a part number on that stick?
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I can't see any P/N but do see stampings near the end as follows-
From bottom tip to up direction: ADD: :FULL ENGINE OIL M (looks like an upside down W)
Mike
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Did some research and the Corvette crowd calls the color salmon.
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Is there a part number on that stick?
As a general rule, assembly line dipsticks didn't have a part number on them, but some Service replacements did.
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Looking at page L35 A4 in 67 AIM it is very confusing. Note that there was a revision in 2-8-67 of the Gage ASM from 3902339 to 3925520 and in 3-3-67 the Gage (stick) from 3860316 to ???? . No part # shown but it had a purple identification code ( view A ). This is very confusing until you look at the P&A
69 P&A shows 3902399 as a stick # used in 67 , 17 15/32 between full and seal, 17 39/32 (miss print 29/32) between add and seal, not sure about this stick (gage) numbers do not add up. The 69 P&A also shows 3925520 as stick (gage) used in 67, 17 13/32 between full and seal, 18 1/2 between add and seal.
Going to the 67 AIM I realized that item 4 was not an asm . but the actual Gage (stick) that was used. Revision 1 2-8-67 changed 3902339 ( do not know the identification code color)to 3925520 with purple color code. The tube 3899640 remained the same until 68 when the gage and tube where changed because of RPO C60. Have know idea what revision 2 3-3-67 is referring to
Mike I believe your gage to be correct and the button has faded from purple to pink over time. Blue and red = purple and fades to light red.
Bob
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Mike,
As a side note, the button on your gage is round which in itself is very interesting. Does your other L35 have the same gage?
Do the measurements I show for 3925520 come close to the ones on your gage?
L78 steve,
Yellow button was used on 68 69 gages.
Bob
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Bob,
Interesting.....When I lay the gauges side by side and align the ":" marks, the 05B motor stick is slightly longer as seen visually at the handle end.
What part of the seal is the measurement made to......the closest to the bell or the seal edge closer to the stick end.
I can take measurements. As for the color, it still looks pink (salmon) even on the part that sits into the handle. I would think that hidden area would not fade.
Mike
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Mike,
The measurements in the P&A are taken from the seal surface facing the stick end. The problem is that the stick shown is generic in that it has a washer and a seal and no bell.
Stop the press. Just found something interesting in my 67 Corvette AIM that may explain the purple button.
Bob
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Mike,
The measurements in the P&A are taken from the seal surface facing the stick end. The problem is that the stick shown is generic in that it has a washer and a seal and no bell.
Stop the press. Just found something interesting in my 67 Corvette AIM that may explain the purple button.
Bob
'67 Corvette big-blocks had dipsticks with pink (salmon) buttons, both before and after the mid-season running change.
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Mike,
The measurements in the P&A are taken from the seal surface facing the stick end. The problem is that the stick shown is generic in that it has a washer and a seal and no bell.
Stop the press. Just found something interesting in my 67 Corvette AIM that may explain the purple button.
Bob
'67 Corvette big-blocks had dipsticks with pink (salmon) buttons, both before and after the mid-season running change.
John,
Thanks for the information about the Corvette mid-season (3-3-67) dipstick change from 3860316 to 3925520, both with pink (salmon) buttons.
Now, if you look at the 67 AIM L35 A4 everything starts to fall in place.
The first production BB's started in January ? 67 and had 3902339 dipsticks with purple buttons.
The revision record shows a change in 2-8-67 from the old dipstick 3902339 with purple button to 3860316 with pink (salmon) button and then another change in 3-3-67 from 3860316 to 3925520 with pink (salmon) button. This coincides with the Corvette mid-season (3-3-67) change stated above.
The index of part numbers at the top of AIM L35 A4 never reflected the change in the color code identification as it should be pink or salmon and not purple.
This does lead to the question as to why was the dipstick changed so many times when the tube 3899640 and pan 3958658 where never changed until 68.
In 68 dipstick changed to 3925599 with yellow button, tube 3928901 and pan did not change. Same for 69.
Which engine went into production first the L78 or L 35? This is important as early engines should have dipsticks 3902339 with purple buttons ??? .
Bob
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January L35 and March L78, so early L35's would have the purple buttons and L78's should have the Pink (salmon). I have know idea when the L35 transition to the pink (salmon) buttons took place or if early L78'S could have the purple buttons. Revision dates do not reflect when actual production started but early L35's should have purple buttons.
Bob
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January L35 and March L78, so early L35's would have the purple buttons and L78's should have the Pink (salmon). I have know idea when the L35 transition to the pink (salmon) buttons took place or if early L78'S could have the purple buttons. Revision dates do not reflect when actual production started but early L35's should have purple buttons.
Bob
Was the dipstick installed when the motor was assembled or when the car was. I'm thinking it was when the motor was assembled.
My earliest motor, stamped 0214MZ, has the pink (salmon) stick. Based on some of your posts about date changes then it may be early Feb the color changed from purple (?) to pink.
As some extra info about oil pans I came across this from the Chevelle group (I assume the 396 Chevelle has the same pan):
http://www.chevellestuff.net/tech/articles/oilpan/index.htm
Mike
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Mike,
The measurements in the P&A are taken from the seal surface facing the stick end. The problem is that the stick shown is generic in that it has a washer and a seal and no bell.
Stop the press. Just found something interesting in my 67 Corvette AIM that may explain the purple button.
Bob
'67 Corvette big-blocks had dipsticks with pink (salmon) buttons, both before and after the mid-season running change.
John,
Thanks for the information about the Corvette mid-season (3-3-67) dipstick change from 3860316 to 3925520, both with pink (salmon) buttons.
Now, if you look at the 67 AIM L35 A4 everything starts to fall in place.
The first production BB's started in January ? 67 and had 3902339 dipsticks with purple buttons.
The revision record shows a change in 2-8-67 from the old dipstick 3902339 with purple button to 3860316 with pink (salmon) button and then another change in 3-3-67 from 3860316 to 3925520 with pink (salmon) button. This coincides with the Corvette mid-season (3-3-67) change stated above.
The index of part numbers at the top of AIM L35 A4 never reflected the change in the color code identification as it should be pink or salmon and not purple.
This does lead to the question as to why was the dipstick changed so many times when the tube 3899640 and pan 3958658 where never changed until 68.
In 68 dipstick changed to 3925599 with yellow button, tube 3928901 and pan did not change. Same for 69.
Which engine went into production first the L78 or L 35? This is important as early engines should have dipsticks 3902339 with purple buttons ??? .
Bob
Pan # 3958658 is wrong and should be 3929257.
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Mike,
After engine assembly and painting, on engine dress line.
Could you check the dipstick length from the top of the bell to the add mark for me? Should be 18 1/8" or 18 1/2" = or - depending which dipstick you have.
Good info on pans, think #3 (3929257) is correct for 1st gen Camaro. ;D
Bob
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Mike,
After engine assembly and painting, on engine dress line.
Could you check the dipstick length from the top of the bell to the add mark for me? Should be 18 1/8" or 18 1/2" = or - depending which dipstick you have.
Good info on pans, think #3 (3929257) is correct for 1st gen Camaro. ;D
Bob
The measurements are as follows:
T0214MZ - 18 1/8" exactly
T0308MW - 18 1/2" exactly
Both have the pink button
Mike
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Hi Bob,
The Chevelle guys are sure into details.
Read reply #20 for a lot more info.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=342864&page=2
Mike
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Mike,
The 18 1/8" dipstick is 3860316 and the 18 1/2" is 3925520, both sticks had salmon buttons and fall in the correct time frame (2-8-67 / 3-3-67).
Do both of the sticks have round salmon buttons or is one flat? Any other differences, type of imprinting ,size of blade etc.?
Chevelle guys have had longer to work at it and have more product to work with. I think most Camaro guys would rather modify than go original.
Look at the post date on reply 20, and we are just now figuring out what dipstick to use in a 67 BB.
Bob
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Hi Bob,
The imprinting is exact between both blades including the hash separators (both gauges use : as a separator)
The gauge measurements are the same for thickness and width.
In the picture you will see differences in the curves nearest the handle being opposite each other and the 0214MZ motor gauge having more of a downward angle as viewed with the bells lined up with the paper line. I don't know if this is by design or the stick is just bent. The metal is very flexible so I don't think it is bent. The buttons are both pink (salmon) though the later one is square. As for shapes, I have seen other dipsticks of different engine sizes with varying roundish shapes so maybe it's the mold shape.
Mike
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Mike,
Great job on the pictures. ;D
I wonder if the buttons where changed to identify a difference between the two dipsticks.
All we need now is an original very early L35 to see what stick was used to complete this post, unless you want to add the 3899640 tube as you have an original.
Bob
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As far as the correct 67 Big block dipstick tube, The parts list states 3899640 for 396/427 except HP. I could not find a tube for HP. Is it the same tube?
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As far as the correct 67 Big block dipstick tube, The parts list states 3899640 for 396/427 except HP. I could not find a tube for HP. Is it the same tube?
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Which "parts list" ?
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http://www.gmpartswiki.com/w/3899640&book=105
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I can post pictures of the tubes if needed.
Did the "HP" version motor have a larger sump....at least for a Camaro?
Mike
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As far as the correct 67 Big block dipstick tube, The parts list states 3899640 for 396/427 except HP. I could not find a tube for HP. Is it the same tube?
According to the 1967 AIM, the L78 engine tube is the same as the L35. My July 1969 Master Parts Catalog for Camaro list only one part number for the 396ci and it is 3899640.
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January L35 and March L78, so early L35's would have the purple buttons and L78's should have the Pink (salmon). I have know idea when the L35 transition to the pink (salmon) buttons took place or if early L78'S could have the purple buttons. Revision dates do not reflect when actual production started but early L35's should have purple buttons.
Bob
Anyone have an original early January L35 that could verify that the above could be correct?
Bob
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My L-35 is a T0I06MY build date. The dipstick is 18 1/8 from the bell top to the add mark. The add and full marks are lines, not two dots. The button is purple and flat.
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I might as well throw my 2 cents in here as well. Looking at my TO131MZ L35 Jan. 31, 67 dipstick, it looks exactly like Mike's TO214 MZ dipstick with the same bends. (Top picture in his post.) As well as the same markings, no lines just 2 dots with the "M" that looks like an upside down "W" and measures 18 and one eighth inches from the top of the "bell" to the add mark. Unfortunately the button is missing. The top portion is painted black. Don't know if someone did that or not but it looks like it has been there a very long time. I wonder if there were differences in the MZ California A.I.R. verses others?
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Remember that the dipstick and tube are unrelated to the engine assembly date - they were installed at the car assembly plant.
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Remember that the dipstick and tube are unrelated to the engine assembly date - they were installed at the car assembly plant.
John Z,
This brings up a question I have wondered about for some time.
If the production of L35's started on January 1, then how could they assemble engines ( T ), ship them to the plant for dress and installation on the same day?
Does this mean that there are L35's with date codes of T12?? or possibly T11?? and could L78's have earlier dates than T03?? ?
Just how long would the lead time be for bringing an RPO of this type into production? I know that the 396 was in production for use in other models but things like exhaust manifolds and oil pans are specific to Camaro's
Thanks as always. ;D
Bob
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You're assuming production started on Jan 1. I've never seen that in writing that I recall.
Lead time - for what aspect? Filling the pipeline, from where to where?
Design to production?
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Remember that the dipstick and tube are unrelated to the engine assembly date - they were installed at the car assembly plant.
Knowing that then I can see how different P/N sticks show up on differently dated motors. It comes down to what is on the motor rack at that time of car assembly (ex: T0214MZ w/04B vs. T0308MW w/05B).
Mike
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My cars assembly date is 02E
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Here are pictures of the dipstick tubes and of interest is what I assume is the vendors 'O' marking stamp.
Also, the original tube from the 04B LOS car (the 05B car tube was repainted back in the 80's) has black paint over the body with traces down to the tip that is inside the oil pan.
I only mention this because it was stated here that the dipstick tubes were raw. Maybe so with other motors, but the BB looks to have it painted.
Both tubes from the 04B and 05B (motor dates T0214MZ & T0308MW respectively) are the same shape and both have the 'O' stamp.
Mike
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Remember that the dipstick and tube are unrelated to the engine assembly date - they were installed at the car assembly plant.
John Z,
This brings up a question I have wondered about for some time.
If the production of L35's started on January 1, then how could they assemble engines ( T ), ship them to the plant for dress and installation on the same day?
Does this mean that there are L35's with date codes of T12?? or possibly T11?? and could L78's have earlier dates than T03?? ?
Just how long would the lead time be for bringing an RPO of this type into production? I know that the 396 was in production for use in other models but things like exhaust manifolds and oil pans are specific to Camaro's
Thanks as always. ;D
Bob
You're assuming production started on Jan 1. I've never seen that in writing that I recall.
Lead time - for what aspect? Filling the pipeline, from where to where?
Design to production?
Kerts,
You are correct, that is why I started the question with If. I was hoping that someone would correct my assumption. Do you know when the first L35 was stamped for Camaro production? Do you know what week the first L35 was built. How about the first ones you have in the data base for both questions?
As for lead time, from the date stamp on the first L35 engine at the Tonawanda NY engine plant to the engine holding area at Norwood or would that be based on number of engines ordered by Nor? I would imagine that they were sent to Nor. in batches. ;D
Bob
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Do you know what week the first L35 was built.
Closest I can pin it to for Camaro is November 1966, so yes, there may be some T11 L35 67 Camaro's.
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As far as the correct 67 Big block dipstick tube, The parts list states 3899640 for 396/427 except HP. I could not find a tube for HP. Is it the same tube?
According to the 1967 AIM, the L78 engine tube is the same as the L35. My July 1969 Master Parts Catalog for Camaro list only one part number for the 396ci and it is 3899640.
The 67 tube is 1 7/8" shorter than the 69. As is the Salmon vs. the yellow stick.
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The dipstick top and tube assembly on my TO131MZ 396 (03C) has definite black paint all the way down. This has never been out of the car and neither has the engine.
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Do you know what week the first L35 was built.
Closest I can pin it to for Camaro is November 1966, so yes, there may be some T11 L35 67 Camaro's.
That's bad info.
First cars were in Jan.
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For years and years I heard rumors of a December 66 built 396 Camaro, but never saw any proof.
Ever piece of data I have seen says the 67 Camaro with the 396 option did not start until sometime in January of 1967. First L78 I think was March of 1967.
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LVN 67 has an engine date stamp of T0106 and a build date of 02E. Does anyone have a production engine assembly date earlier than that?
I know CRG has some January 01? body builds on file. I wonder what the engine dates are on them, as it took 7 weeks to get the engine into LVN's 02E build.;D
Bob
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Common for engine dates to be a few days before the car shipped. Often under a week.
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Kurts,
That is true but in this case every example has taken around 7/9 weeks give or take between assembly and installation.
T0106 02E
T0131 03C
T0214 04E
T0308 05B
Bob
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I believe that because there were not as many 396's put in the Camaro's at that earlier time of the year, that it might be the reason that the engines sat for a while before they were needed. Small blocks were more commonly used, therefore they didn't sit too long. Maybe a couple of days or a week or two? I would think that as the year progressed and the demand for BB's increased, maybe the BB's narrowed the time spent sitting before they were mated up to their prospective cars. So what Big Iron stated would be correct.
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My 396 block has a cast date G 23 9, the stamp pad is 0728 and my body is 08D ~8/22. Less than a week from a cast block to built then almost four weeks until it was in the car. That was 69 though, not 67, and with only 2,018 L34s built in 69 for Camaros I'm sure the turnover was slower. I'm not sure how many of the L34 blocks were built for Nova and Chevelle though.
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Small blocks were more commonly used, therefore they didn't sit too long. Maybe a couple of days or a week or two?
You really can't apply generalizations here. I've seen an L48 assembled in mid-August, that was installed in a LOS 11B car, so about 3 months apart. The inventory control wasn't as tight as you find today. I suspect things could get stuck back in a corner and sit for awhile.
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Kurts,
That is true but in this case every example has taken around 7/9 weeks give or take between assembly and installation.
Bob,
You asked the question of lead time from the engine plant and I answered that. I'm really not sure what you are looking for.