CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: F68 on December 09, 2014, 10:12:49 PM
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Them ole Camaros, best damn sporty car for the buck avalable to us US Americans, but--Nothing is perfect.....
Myself -I have always been pre-occupied with styling, and annoyed by styling glitches that seem last minute additions to clay full scale models added my ignoramous's'
The 67-and 8 got pretty close to perfect proportions for what they were, but having sufferd the same abuse all you guys also agonized over..door dings...... The crease running down the length i would have smoothed over and eliminated, also since i have done custom pieces like a road racing front faring -even before , I did not like the indented wheel well lips stamped in just to fit the tacky wheel opening trim , i would have just had a 1/2" flat vertical edge all the way around , those are the two basic changes i wish the cars had when they came out, but i can turn my imagination loose,,,, You guys would not believe what would have been
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Well.. if I had to drive a '67 or '68 (and couldn't get hold of a great '69),.. :) I'd probably make it similar to this one... :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxvAkUupnKw
(of course, I'd probably need a little of Tim Allen's or Jay Leno's $$ to do it... :)
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Why??? Why would you want to redesign a 67 or 68 or 69, when there are still so many 80s cars on the road that were designed by government regulations and the business office?
(http://smileyshack.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/sfun_deadhorse.gif?w=1000&h=)
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80's cars are *ugly*... :)
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Well.. if I had to drive a '67 or '68 (and couldn't get hold of a great '69),.. :) I'd probably make it similar to this one... :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxvAkUupnKw
(of course, I'd probably need a little of Tim Allen's or Jay Leno's $$ to do it... :)
OH No--Not one of YOU guys ( where's the roll eyes face)
Tims car- Yawn, take a stock car--stick a plain ole 427 in it and ...Paint it Dark Green,,,????
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1967 - wouldn't change a thing.
1968 - why mess with perfection.
1969 - redesign to look more like a 7 or 8.
Seriously though why change them. Their differences are what make them great.
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I don't really think I would change much with the styling. Would have been nice to have had a factory 427 in 67 and 68 though. ;D
70 wasn't bad either. :)
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1967 - wouldn't change a thing.
1968 - why mess with perfection.
1969 - redesign to look more like a 7 or 8.
Seriously though why change them. Their differences are what make them great.
I agree for the most part with Cook.
One major thing if I could go back in time to all the manufacturers would be to increase the wheel well size specifically in the rear, but considering trans am, how about on all 4 corners. The 65 mustang only came with 14" wheels and a 225 tire is pushing it on those. Even my 66 chevelle or the early novas , the engineers could have probably had the same cost of assembly and made the inner tubs bigger.
I also think this would have saved a lot of corvettes camaros and the like from the big flared fender rage of the 70's. Just my 2 cents from seeing a lot of hack jobs and fab work over the years.
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I'm in Bullitt's camp. larger wheel wells. you can fit a little more meat under 69's then 7's or 8's I think. Other then that love the lines, just one of those cars that don't have a bad angle. I like the vent windows on 67's.
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from the raw type design of the 67 - the refined mechanics with addition of the L89 for 68, the RS trim and large mouldings dressed the 68's out, then 69 was sharper, appeared wider and with the wheel opening shape of a flat top coupled with the gentle tapered peaks from front to rear the car appears to be moving even when standing still...
I never appreciated the 69's until I started restoring them, the body lines on a 69 are unlike any other car...
Give me a 68 RS/SS L89 4.10 or 4.56 m20.
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1967 - wouldn't change a thing.
1968 - why mess with perfection.
1969 - redesign to look more like a 7 or 8.
Seriously though why change them. Their differences are what make them great.
X2!!!!!
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Give me a 68 RS/SS L89 4.10 or 4.56 m20.
Not an RS or L89 but its a 4.56 & a 69 CEL78 with a bench seat! If I had the income I would snatch this one up.
Click Link (http://www.cars-on-line.com/76521.html)
(http://www.cars-on-line.com/photo/76500/68chev76521-1.jpg)
(http://www.cars-on-line.com/photo/76500/68chev76521-2.jpg)
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Darrell,
I have to agree.. that's a helluva car... L78 with bench seat 4 speed... and looks great...
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One major thing if I could go back in time to all the manufacturers would be to increase the wheel well size specifically in the rear, but considering trans am, how about on all 4 corners. Even my 66 chevelle or the early novas , the engineers could have probably had the same cost of assembly and made the inner tubs bigger.
Remember that:
1. "Big tires" didn't exist in the early-to-mid-60's - they were all skinny, for ride comfort.
2. Making the inner rear wheelhouse tubs wider would have compromised the rear seat hip room dimension and reduced the cubic capacity number for the trunk, and those were important in the 60's.
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Remember that:
...................................
2. Making the inner rear wheelhouse tubs wider would have compromised the rear seat hip room dimension ..............
I agree. It was cramped enough spending time in the back seat at the drive-ins back in my youthful wild days ( Mike checks over his shoulder for the wife's whereabouts ) :D I can only image how cramped it would be if it was narrower!
Mike S.
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Hmm, I was thinking they had drag slicks even in the mid 60's. Wasn't big daddy's swamp rat around in the late 50's?
I agree all the manufacturers used skinny tires because most everybody else used them, and they were main stream, and their " Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" marketing was working without using large wheel tubs, but this may have given any 1 of the big 3 a leg up.
I could see it affecting the trunk space a little, but on the A body cars and full frame vehicles, you could fit like 6 people in the trunk! I think they could sacrificed a some trunk space on those cars at least. A redesign of the rear seat would have made it work without sacrificing hip room. Nix a couple of extra ashtrays in the rear and its paid for... :)
I think it was do-able back then. I think the design of the cars was great across all the manufactures really. When you see some of the prototypes they were looking at and the other possible names of the cars, things could have turned out a lot worse. I think a possible name for the Camaro was the "Chetah" ... :D
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Wide tires were used back then. They just had to jack the rear of the car up to clear the quarter well. Another check mark for 7 & 8s for not needing as much jacking.. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs053.gif)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/GrumpysToyVsTheFlintstoneFlyer_zpsc8beef1f.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/GrumpysToyVsTheFlintstoneFlyer_zpsc8beef1f.jpg.html)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/sucp-1202-super-chevy-drag-racing-greats-part-1-005_zps4d4449a9.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/sucp-1202-super-chevy-drag-racing-greats-part-1-005_zps4d4449a9.jpg.html)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/y1_zps1bbe9d39.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/y1_zps1bbe9d39.jpg.html)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20L78%20Camaro/photo_zps4529774d.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20L78%20Camaro/photo_zps4529774d.jpg.html)
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Cars were (and are) designed for 'street tires'; think how a large wheelwell would look with a tiny little 'standard tire of the day' in it... it would not look 'cool'.. :)
Don't you think the ZL1s, COPO's, Z28's etc of the day (in 1969) would have been outfitted (or at least had option for) a much larger tire than an E-70x15, or an F-70x14 if the tires were available from the manufacturer at that time?
I ordered a new '70 RR in Sept/Oct of 1969. At that time, the largest 'street tire' seen on street cars was an H70-14. A friend of mine knew I was ordering a Roadrunner and told me something he'd read in an advance car mag .. ie. that F60x15 Polyglas GT were available on the new RR (if you got a Hemi). I had no idea what a '60 series' tire was at the time. I found out I could get it without paying the 12% premium for the Hemi engine, as long as I ordered 'hemi suspension' (that option cost me $15 on the order as I recall). After I got the car between Thanksgiving and Christmas in late 1969, people were amazed at the size/width of the tires! I even won bets with guys who hadn't seen them or heard of them who bet me 'their tires were wider'.. :)
Besides.. having larger tires/wheels today for our old cars.. gives the customizers and hot rodders something to do... :)
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why change perfection? everything chevy made in 67 was perfect, except the impala. even the pickup is a classic. camaro, nova, chevelle, corvette, pickup...that group of vehicles will never be beat.
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:) ... I'm so very glad some of us here are unbiased and open minded.. :)
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Wide tires were used back then. They just had to jack the rear of the car up to clear the quarter well. Another check mark for 7 & 8s for not needing as much jacking.. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-signs053.gif)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/GrumpysToyVsTheFlintstoneFlyer_zpsc8beef1f.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/GrumpysToyVsTheFlintstoneFlyer_zpsc8beef1f.jpg.html)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/sucp-1202-super-chevy-drag-racing-greats-part-1-005_zps4d4449a9.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/sucp-1202-super-chevy-drag-racing-greats-part-1-005_zps4d4449a9.jpg.html)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/y1_zps1bbe9d39.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/y1_zps1bbe9d39.jpg.html)
(http://i1310.photobucket.com/albums/s649/cook_dw/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20L78%20Camaro/photo_zps4529774d.jpg) (http://s1310.photobucket.com/user/cook_dw/media/1968%20Rallye%20Green%20L78%20Camaro/photo_zps4529774d.jpg.html)
Yep....raise that baby. Back in the day it was Gabriel HiJackers....with the air hose fitting drilled under the lower rear valance.
Mike
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:) ... I'm so very glad some of us here are unbiased and open minded.. :)
Yeah ok hugger orange.. ::)
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PERFECT
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/OAKLYSS/RS%20Camaro%20photos/69RSrear.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/OAKLYSS/media/RS%20Camaro%20photos/69RSrear.jpg.html)
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great pic....
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Back then, we WERE trying to improve on the factory. The more you changed, the better! If the M50-14 tires didnt fit, you MADE them fit:
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/OAKLYSS/RS%20Camaro%20photos/69RSside.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/OAKLYSS/media/RS%20Camaro%20photos/69RSside.jpg.html)
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If it was my call, the Camaro would have the same frame and IRS differential as the 63-67 Corvette
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I think the styling is great. Probably wouldn't change a thing. Just wish they would have made twice as many each year so there were more to be had out there.
Inside, I wish they offered a seatback that reclined. Some better side support on the seats would have been nice.
I wish the '67s got the staggered shocks and multi-leafs. Better fenderwell clearance was a good one also. That's about it for me.
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Better rust protection on sheetmetal.
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Hmm, I was thinking they had drag slicks even in the mid 60's. Wasn't big daddy's swamp rat around in the late 50's?
I was referring to PRODUCTION tires (the kind they designed the car around). ;-0
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Better rust protection on sheetmetal.
Personally, I've been pretty impressed by the degree of rust protection Chevy applied to the sheet metal parts. The ONLY areas on my car which had any rust at all was under the battery (inner fender and frame rail) apparently where battery acid leaked onto the metal parts... that isn't so bad for 45 years IMO.. :) (Let's wait another 45 years and see how well the 'restored' cars do... :) )
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One major thing if I could go back in time to all the manufacturers would be to increase the wheel well size specifically in the rear, but considering trans am, how about on all 4 corners. Even my 66 chevelle or the early novas , the engineers could have probably had the same cost of assembly and made the inner tubs bigger.
Remember that:
1. "Big tires" didn't exist in the early-to-mid-60's - they were all skinny, for ride comfort.
2. Making the inner rear wheelhouse tubs wider would have compromised the rear seat hip room dimension and reduced the cubic capacity number for the trunk, and those were important in the 60's.
JohnZ... Some (Or most?) of these guys can't 'remember' that because they weren't around then.. :) THEY think these huge wide tires we have available to us today have always been around.... :)
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In crabby old man voice - "Back in my day we had to walk to school 20 miles up hill both ways in 4 feet of snow!!!"
lol ;D
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In crabby old man voice - "Back in my day we had to walk to school 20 miles up hill both ways in 4 feet of snow!!!"
lol ;D
... :) .. and.. On skinny tires.... because that was all that was available before 1970... :)
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Hmm, I was thinking they had drag slicks even in the mid 60's. Wasn't big daddy's swamp rat around in the late 50's?
I was referring to PRODUCTION tires (the kind they designed the car around). ;-0
Yep, what you got off the dealer lot had narrow bias-ply. ;)
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Oh, and body stiffness. They didn't have the analytical tools to do it right.
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Not from the factory this way?? :D
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Better rust protection on sheetmetal.
Personally, I've been pretty impressed by the degree of rust protection Chevy applied to the sheet metal parts. The ONLY areas on my car which had any rust at all was under the battery (inner fender and frame rail) apparently where battery acid leaked onto the metal parts... that isn't so bad for 45 years IMO.. :) (Let's wait another 45 years and see how well the 'restored' cars do... :) )
actually, having chiseled off more than a couple 67=8 quarter panels and replaced them---There was a ribbon of sponge foam inserted between the wheelhouse lip and the quarter skin--apparently to "seal it when they were spotwelded on the assembly line, and what it really did was wick and hold moisture--causing them to rust out even in somewhat moist environments like Dallas Tx. and that my friends --was doing No one any favors
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Them ole Camaros, best damn sporty car for the buck avalable to us US Americans, but--Nothing is perfect.....
Myself -I have always been pre-occupied with styling, and annoyed by styling glitches that seem last minute additions to clay full scale models added my ignoramous's'
The 67-and 8 got pretty close to perfect proportions for what they were, but having sufferd the same abuse all you guys also agonized over..door dings...... The crease running down the length i would have smoothed over and eliminated, also since i have done custom pieces like a road racing front faring -even before , I did not like the indented wheel well lips stamped in just to fit the tacky wheel opening trim , i would have just had a 1/2" flat vertical edge all the way around , those are the two basic changes i wish the cars had when they came out, but i can turn my imagination loose,,,, You guys would not believe what would have been
Them ole Camaros, best damn sporty car for the buck avalable to us US Americans, but--Nothing is perfect.....
Myself -I have always been pre-occupied with styling, and annoyed by styling glitches that seem last minute additions to clay full scale models added my ignoramous's'
The 67-and 8 got pretty close to perfect proportions for what they were, but having sufferd the same abuse all you guys also agonized over..door dings...... The crease running down the length i would have smoothed over and eliminated, also since i have done custom pieces like a road racing front faring -even before , I did not like the indented wheel well lips stamped in just to fit the tacky wheel opening trim , i would have just had a 1/2" flat vertical edge all the way around , those are the two basic changes i wish the cars had when they came out, but i can turn my imagination loose,,,, You guys would not believe what would have been
Them ole Camaros, best damn sporty car for the buck avalable to us US Americans, but--Nothing is perfect.....
Myself -I have always been pre-occupied with styling, and annoyed by styling glitches that seem last minute additions to clay full scale models added my ignoramous's'
The 67-and 8 got pretty close to perfect proportions for what they were, but having sufferd the same abuse all you guys also agonized over..door dings...... The crease running down the length i would have smoothed over and eliminated, also since i have done custom pieces like a road racing front faring -even before , I did not like the indented wheel well lips stamped in just to fit the tacky wheel opening trim , i would have just had a 1/2" flat vertical edge all the way around , those are the two basic changes i wish the cars had when they came out, but i can turn my imagination loose,,,, You guys would not believe what would have been
My first post was about the styling glitches, as far as the chassis..........................
the Camaro is technically Not a real car IMO, ---a real one is ---> body on frame. if I was the guy who could have made it happen back then the Camaro would have been a full framed car like the 66 chevelle, the next best thing if I couldn't vanquish the bean counters would have been extending the rails back to the point that the leaf springs front brackets would have been the rear ends of the rails--and if I could have done that it would have had a 4 link and coils instead of those single leaf jokes.
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Better rust protection on sheetmetal.
Nothing has changed. Besides restos, I do a great deal of rot repair on new vehicles. As expected, they are not designed for longevity in certain geographical areas, unless measures are taken right after being driven off the lot. And even still, some of the body areas are not accessable to deter failure. Many designs and products of new vehicles accelerate corrosion faster than a 60's car. In essence, I am restoring 6-10 year old vehicles by replacing rockers, floors and quarters.
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Them ole Camaros, best damn sporty car for the buck avalable to us US Americans, but--Nothing is perfect.....
Myself -I have always been pre-occupied with styling, and annoyed by styling glitches that seem last minute additions to clay full scale models added my ignoramous's'
The 67-and 8 got pretty close to perfect proportions for what they were, but having sufferd the same abuse all you guys also agonized over..door dings...... The crease running down the length i would have smoothed over and eliminated, also since i have done custom pieces like a road racing front faring -even before , I did not like the indented wheel well lips stamped in just to fit the tacky wheel opening trim , i would have just had a 1/2" flat vertical edge all the way around , those are the two basic changes i wish the cars had when they came out, but i can turn my imagination loose,,,, You guys would not believe what would have been
There, I fixed the style problem:
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/OAKLYSS/1968%20GTCS/DSC09409_zps79464d0c.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/OAKLYSS/media/1968%20GTCS/DSC09409_zps79464d0c.jpg.html)
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Better rust protection on sheetmetal.
Personally, I've been pretty impressed by the degree of rust protection Chevy applied to the sheet metal parts. The ONLY areas on my car which had any rust at all was under the battery (inner fender and frame rail) apparently where battery acid leaked onto the metal parts... that isn't so bad for 45 years IMO.. :) (Let's wait another 45 years and see how well the 'restored' cars do... :) )
That depends on how and where your car was driven and maintained. What rust protection the factory applied was miinimal at best. Longevity does not ensure profit, obsolescence does. I bought my LOS car in '84. It had minimal rust. A '67 LOS I'm doing now is 99% rust free. Those cars would not be that way if driven in harsh conditions. Anyone who does quality restos is not concerned about repairs failing.
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I have seen fairly late model dodge trucks here with the bed side rotted out and you can see a rope looking piece in there that didn't help the problem
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I have seen fairly late model dodge trucks here with the bed side rotted out and you can see a rope looking piece in there that didn't help the problem
I just did full rockers and bedside repairs on an '04 Ram with 93K miles. That "rope" of which you speak is panel adhesive between the wheelhouse and bedside. That alone idoes not cause rot, many other design factors do. Same is true with any muscle car I've restored. Poor design and lack of proper rust preventative measures taken after purchase. Let's face it, how many people who bought a musclecar intended to keep it forever? They were a dime a dozen, beaten to death and discarded. Junked plenty of them over the years.
There is a blob of foam in the door jamb on first gens that causes rot; no different than the NVH(Noiise, Vibration, Harshness) used on new cars that does the same thing.
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I understand what you guys are saying, and there is truth there... but .. regardless of what the manufacturer does, it is incumbent on the owner/operator to maintain and preserve the vehicle. I've always kept my vehicles 'clean' from new, even to washing out the wheel wells, and underneath, especially after having driven in nasty conditions (and I'm in the south, so opportunities to drive on salted roads have been very minimal, but I've driven in sandy situations, even on Daytona beach, but I have never failed after driving in situations where the undercarriage (and all it's nooks and cranny's) have opportunities to trap road salts, etc, .. I've always made attempt to *clean* underneath and 'flush out' all the salts and contaminants as soon after as possible. I've used coin car washes and their high pressure washers much more often for washing underneath and wheel wells than I have for cleaning the top side of a car...
How many of those 'rusted down' cars you've worked on, do you think got treated to that kind of care? Did the manufacturers PROOF their vehicles so that they'd last 40 or 50 years *regardless* of how they got treated? No.. and should they have? No again.... If the owner wants to preserve the things they own, they will.. otherwise.. they won't get preserved regardless of what the manufacturer did.
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I have seen fairly late model dodge trucks here with the bed side rotted out and you can see a rope looking piece in there that didn't help the problem
You beat me to that observation, Bill. Same here too on Long Island...many new trucks with wheel opening rot. Looking closely at them I can see no matter how much care the owner does to the truck, that is still rotting from behind the paint and from an inaccessible cavity.
It still amazes me how many old cars I see at shows that are still around even though they weren't designed to last what, maybe 10 years? Remember when reaching 100K miles on a car back then drew reverence and awe? Yep, they now needed and got some cosmetic help (sort of like people when we get older) but the fact remains if it's made in the USA, it's here to stay ("your mileage will vary" ) ;)
Mike
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I have seen fairly late model dodge trucks here with the bed side rotted out and you can see a rope looking piece in there that didn't help the problem
You beat me to that observation, Bill. Same here too on Long Island...many new trucks with wheel opening rot. Looking closely at them I can see no matter how much care the owner does to the truck, that is still rotting from behind the paint and from an inaccessible cavity.
Mike
Late mode Dodge rear wheelwells have holes that allow water and debris to be trapped and begin rotting the pinchwelds and metal from the inside. Chevy trucks do the same thing by a similar design. Dodge inner rockers have factory taped over holes that provide access for application of rust prevention products and cavity waxes but I've never seen an owner do it. That is why I do so many rocker replacements. Dodge rockers are triple walled and the center wall completely disintegrates. Frame rot is common, shock mounts rotted off are also. All pinchwleds are prone to failure simply by neglect.
Chevy rear wheewells have plastic plugs which provide rust prevention access but again, no one does it. I rebuilt an '05 GMC last year with 62K miles. It needed full rockers , cab corners, and door bottoms. Cab corners are foam fillled which gets soaking wet. No amount of rust prevention can stop it because it's inaccessible. Corner replacement is inevitable. Chevy rockers are also triple walled and the outer wall is very thin. Repro replacement rockers are 16 gauge and superior to GM rockers.
If people took immediate measures upon purchasing a vehicle, many, but not all corrosion problems can be avoided. Salt and calcium chloride destroys daily drivers and work vehicles. It's still cheaper to fix the rot than spend $40K+ on a replacement truck. Some let the rot progress and repair becomes out of their financial reach.
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Guys as much as we all love our cars and trucks lots of people see them as just a tool to get us from point "A" to point "B". And yes, some of us clean our tools better then others.... :D
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Them ole Camaros, best damn sporty car for the buck avalable to us US Americans, but--Nothing is perfect.....
Myself -I have always been pre-occupied with styling, and annoyed by styling glitches that seem last minute additions to clay full scale models added my ignoramous's'
The 67-and 8 got pretty close to perfect proportions for what they were, but having sufferd the same abuse all you guys also agonized over..door dings...... The crease running down the length i would have smoothed over and eliminated, also since i have done custom pieces like a road racing front faring -even before , I did not like the indented wheel well lips stamped in just to fit the tacky wheel opening trim , i would have just had a 1/2" flat vertical edge all the way around , those are the two basic changes i wish the cars had when they came out, but i can turn my imagination loose,,,, You guys would not believe what would have been
There, I fixed the style problem:
(http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r206/OAKLYSS/1968%20GTCS/DSC09409_zps79464d0c.jpg) (http://s145.photobucket.com/user/OAKLYSS/media/1968%20GTCS/DSC09409_zps79464d0c.jpg.html)
I have never really supported intolerance --- but this guy proves the fact that there is a reason for the concept..........Just sayin